Olmert suffers from Bush delusion, as this more thorough report for Haaretz shows:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052533.html

Olmert further stated that Israel will not allow a humanitarian crisis to occur in Gaza.

"Israel is not fighting Palestinians living in Gaza. They are not our enemy. They are victims of violent and cruel oppression," he said.

"We will aid with food and medical supplies as any moral and enlightened country must."

I wonder why Hamas was sending up to 100 missles a day into Israel without killing anyone and now suddenly 4 are killed by the missles when they should be on full alert. Better missles? What?

The Palestinians should have gone Gandhi, but they went Cong instead.

Peres is just making the point that Israel considers Hamas a rational actor, i.e., it makes decisions based on cost and benefit calculations.

As to the outcome, hard to say. Maybe the Israelis learned from the Lebanon war tragedy / fiasco 2 years ago, or maybe this situation is sufficiently different, for the outcome to be different.

On the other hand, maybe the Lebanon war wasn't such a fiasco. Hezbollah has caused all kinds of mischief in Lebanon, and has rearmed many times over, but they haven't lifted a finger against Israel since then. We'll see if that sticks now. Or if this kind of military action can make something similar stick in Gaza.

"We don't intend to occupy Gaza or crush Hamas but crush terror," Peres said, "Hamas needs a real and serious lesson. They are now getting it." -- Israeli President Shimon Peres

The lesson is that that Israel will never allow a genuine "two state solution". Israel will ensure that any Palestinian state will be nothing more than a South African-style "homeland" which is completely controlled by and dependent on Israel.

The lesson is that Israel, through AIPAC, controls the U.S. government and as long as Israel doesn't commit any large-scale atrocities then the U.S. will continue to block any international action in support of the Palestinian people.

The lesson that the Palestinians will take away is that they will be eternally second-class humans as long as Israel exists They will learn that Israel will only allow them lives of hopelessness and desperate poverty. and that the only way for their short lives to have any meaning will be to strap a bomb to their bodies and kill as many of the enemies as they can.

What a brilliant strategy.

You step on my foot - I burn your village to the ground.

Further, only a complete asshole would say that he had no choice in the matter, that this response was unavoidable. Hamas is responsible for their decisions and the so-called leaders of the Israeli government are completely responsible for theirs. Full Stop.

A lesson? Who talks like that, I mean besides grade school bullies?

Pathetic.

The logic that Hamas will be anything but strengthened by this invasion is downright Bushian.

Israel has made it clear over and over that Palestinian sovereignty over what remains of their territory will not be tolerated. While the current atrocities being committed by Israel have much to do with their election in a month, the broader picture is still to prevent any process that will lead to a Palestinian state on its doorstep.

By never allowing any sort of healing process because old wounds are deliberately reopened, and by forever playing the victim, Israel presents itself as merely defending itself from hostile neighbors. Unfortunately, Israel has now proven itself to be the villain and a rogue state.

As long as the rest of the 'civilized' world, and especially the US, tolerates such lawless and aggregious behavior from an 'ally' there can be no hope for an end to Islamic militancy, and random or organized acts of violence that go under the heading of 'terrorism'.

It is Israel that needs to learn a lesson not the Palestinians.

Maybe one of the obstacles to some agreement is fear of a full national state in Palestine. Maybe we can push to have some special arrangement there, giving them independence and a better life but not normal national military capabilities. It is hard to argue that such a thing would be fair, but maybe the only way to get something (and also to insist on rooting out settlers, maybe the worst thing to get in the way of straightening this out at all.)

The only thing that could really make the affair more effective is for the Israeli's to adopt the master strategist and tactician , as well . After all Lil' busshie is an honored Israeli , ne ce pas ?
I believe Americans would be ready to let our decider visit one of his very own uzi footprints . This too ! Even though it might mean ... permanently , sigh .
Oh the history ! Oh, history ! All the surgie streaming around here . I told you ; it—I can't even talk to people Ah ! It's—it—it's a—ah! I—I can't talk , ladies and gentlemen .

Dale,

"The Palestinians should have gone Gandhi..."

They've been there, done that. The Israelis still did not keep their word or agreements.

larry,

"On the other hand, maybe the Lebanon war wasn't such a fiasco."

You've got to be kidding. No matter how many times that Israel moved the goal post, the rockets kept coming. They were humiliated.

"Hezbollah has caused all kinds of mischief in Lebanon...,"

Like winning democtratic elections ?

"and has rearmed many times over, but they haven't lifted a finger against Israel since then."

Because Israel has not done anything for Hezbollah to counter-attack over.

This, from Juan Cole, is very telling about the creepy double-crossing in geopolitics and how it comes back to bite people and nations:

http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/gaza-2008-micro-wars-and-macro-wars.html

In the 1980s, when the secular, left-leaning Palestine Liberation Organization predominated as the Palestinian political force, Israeli intelligence funneled some aid to Hamas (descended from the Gaza branch of the Muslim Brotherhood), a fundamentalist group, in hopes of dividing and ruling the Palestinians. That part of the plan worked, but Israeli intelligence created a monster, since as Hamas grew in strength and popularity, it grew increasing vocal about its rejection of Israel and its ambition to see the state dismantled, allowing the emergence of a fundamentalist Muslim Palestinian state where Israel now stands.

"The Palestinians should have gone Gandhi, but they went Cong instead."

Comment #2 on this notion.

Gandhi recoginized that for non-violent civil disobedience to work, the authorities being resisted must be of a nation that respects law... both internal and international.

Internal law in the British Empire prevented the British from torturing or killing Gandhi or simply making him quietly 'disappear'... unfortunately these things the Israelis are very practiced at. (Israel would probably just use an 'accidental' missile strike).

Concern for international law and public opinion finally put enough pressure (including financial) on the British empire to see the light regarding their continued occupation of India.

In contrast, Israel scorns world opinion... and especialy UN resolutions.

But, as long as they control the US congress they can do whatever they want with impunity and they know it.

The only hope is that someday the US will come down on the side of what is just and right. Sadly, that is very unlikely until the american people actually become educated about the middle east. Eventually accessibility of unfiltered information via the internet just might make that happen, which I think must be one of the primary worries of the Israeli government.

As Juan Cole points out Israel did in fact prop up Hamas (along with the help of the CIA) to rival the more radical PLO.

Didn't the CIA prop up Saddam, Osama and the Taliban in their quest to fk with Iran and Russia?

The 2 party DC mafia keeps manufacturing our future enemies.. and the lame ass sheepeople keep re-electing the incompetent clowns.

Joe,

"Because Israel has not done anything for Hezbollah to counter-attack over."

They hadn't done anything previously either. The Lebanon war was provoked -- I'm not saying this was the root cause -- by Hezbollah forces crossing into Israel and capturing two soldiers. I'm not aware of any prior Israeli provocation that led to that action.

So, the point stands that the war seems to have had some deterrent value. Whether it was worth the human cost (or even just the political cost) is another matter. And for that matter how much of a deterrent it created, it's hard to say.

The lesson is that when religious extremists fight religious extremists, everyone rational loses.

I believe the lunatics in charge of Israel would use a nuke if it wouldn't pollute Israel and the territory they have annexed by force from the Palestinians.

Okay, the weak Palestinian response to the savage beating Israel is meating out is surely evidence of a plot to oppose the savage beating and therefore must be dealth with by delivering a savage beating until the weak defence against the savage beating stops. Get it ?

From the SF Chronicle letters to the editor:

Shared crime

Editor - Behind the bombast about rockets and terrorists and collateral damage and self defense, something else is being whispered to us: The Palestinians are not part of our common humanity. They are surfeit. They can be walled away, their land can be stolen, they can be starved, and if the militant among them strike back, they can be annihilated - every man, woman and child. Their agony is nothing to us.

Listen for this murmuring beneath the clever talking points of our statesmen. They want to bind us in a shared crime.

CAROL SANDERS, BERKELEY...'

Thank you Carol

larry,

"The Lebanon war was provoked -- I'm not saying this was the root cause -- by Hezbollah forces crossing into Israel and capturing two soldiers."

Which was retaliation for Israel crossing the border and capturing several Hezbollah border guards.

You're starting in the middle, just as the Israeli RightWing always starts in the middle to feign self-defense.

Amazing.

An ABC News correspondent, Simon McGregor-Wood, actually said on the World News that "despite the offensive, Hamas is still firing rockets back at Israel".

I'm surprised they allowed that to air.

Joe,

"Which was retaliation for Israel crossing the border and capturing several Hezbollah border guards."

Reference, please. And it should be something within, say, 6 months or a year of the Hezbollah raid. Otherwise we can go back to the Ottoman empire I suppose. But let's not.

larry,

It was a matter of just days before Hezbollah responded in kind. This was well thrashed out in these forums at the time.

Interesting comments. I read this blog to see what the left is saying.

The lesson is that that Israel will never allow a genuine "two state solution". Israel will ensure that any Palestinian state will be nothing more than a South African-style "homeland" which is completely controlled by and dependent on Israel.

Martin Kramer believes that this is a step to a two-state solution. Fatah is aiding Israel and Hamas is killing many Fatah members as they jockey to see if the PA can again rule Gaza. That would restore a party that is willing to negotiate with Israel. In 2000, Arafat walked away from the best deal the PA will ever get. I think Abbas now realizes it and so do others in his party. The persent campaign is to show Hamas there are worse things than what they had before they denounced the cease fire.

Mike,

"In 2000, Arafat walked away from the best deal the PA will ever get."

No, he did not. There was no "deal". Nothing to walk away FROM.

Joe,

While the Wikipedia isn't the end-all of knowledge, here's its description of the start of the 2006 Lebanon War:

"...on 12 July 2006... a Hezbollah ground contingent crossed the border into Israeli territory and attacked two Israeli armoured Humvees patrolling on the Israeli side of the Israel-Lebanon border, near Zar'it, killing three, injuring two, and kidnapping two Israeli soldiers (master sergeant Ehud Goldwasser and first sergeant Eldad Regev)... Hezbollah named the attack "Operation Truthful Promise" after leader Hassan Nasrallah's public pledges over the prior year and a half to seize Israeli soldiers and swap them for four Lebanese held by Israel:

Samir Kuntar (a Lebanese citizen captured during a terrorist attack in 1979, convicted of murdering civilians and a police officer);
Nasim Nisr (an Israeli-Lebanese citizen tried and convicted for spying by Israel);
Yahya Skaf (a Lebanese citizen whom Hezbollah claims was arrested in Israel, Israel denies);[43][44]
Ali Faratan (another Lebanese citizen whom Hezbollah claims to be held in Israel).
"Nasrallah claimed that Israel had broken a previous deal to release these prisoners, and since diplomacy had failed, violence was the only remaining option."

So, no mention of any prior Israeli cross-border raid.

References, please.

larry,

" While the Wikipedia..."

'Nuff said.

There is a month by month archive and search box at the bottom of the page.

Uhm... show me the reference.

Jean,

Sorry, Israel cannot be acting in self-defense while they are engaged in an illegal military occupation.

Joe, there are none so blind as will not see.

Do you also believe that the Mossad had a hand in 9/11 ?

The lesson is that that Israel will never allow a genuine "two state solution".

The two state solution was (Trans) Jordan and Israel. Now the Arabs want another two state solution. What comes after that, a different two state solution. Keep splitting Israel in half until it approaches nothing.

The Hamas keeps sending rockets, Israel has the right to stop it. Everybody should quit whining about it. The Hamas caused this attack.

Everyone on this board who does not agree with Israel's invasion of Gaza needs to contact his/her Congresspeople and let them know how they feel. According to the latest poll, Americans are split nearly right down the middle about the Israel invasion with 15% not having a position. Congress needs to know that Americans no longer think Israel is the good guy to Hamas's bad guy. In my opinion there is no good guy but what Israel is doing to Gaza and what they did to Lebanon two years ago is a travesty. The war machine aka Israel must be stopped. America must stop subsidizing the Israeli war effort.

Is this Israel's 'shock and awe". Yes, human life (especially a child's) is secondary to making a strong point. Of course Israel has done nothing to instigate how they are being regarded by 'some' Palestinians.

And to be sure America, even in the midst of our economic collapse, will supply them with all the weapons and money they need while making sure we don't do anything as stupid as sending food and medical supplies to those suffering in Gaza.

Israel believes they must be taught a lesson and will hit them hard. Seems like that was the same thing those who flew planes into the WTC buildings believed..boy did they teach us a lesson. What did we call those actions again...?

Are they really so un-resourceful that killing is the only way they can find to live in peace?

Mike,

A very weak attempt at a Straw Man there.

Better luck next time.

gttim,

"[The] Hamas keeps sending rockets, Israel has the right to stop it."

You have that exactly backwards.

Article 51 of the UN Charter details the right of people, individually or collectively, to self-defense when they come under military aggression. An illegal military occupation is military aggression.

Joe, do you also think the Sudeten Germans should be firing rockets at someone ? They helped start a war that they lost. They were expelled from what is now the Czech Republic after the war, as were the Prussians expelled from what is now Poland. Is Poland illegally occupying East Prussia ? Is the Czech Republic illegally occupying Sudetenland ? The analogy is no straw man.

The Arabs began a war rather than accept the UN partition and lost it. They have since lost several more wars. The difference is that the Palestinians, left in camps by their brother Arabs, were not expelled by Israel.

I was curious about your thoughts about 9/11. So many times the extreme anti-Israel sentiment coexists with other conspiracy theories.

Back and forth again... Israel started it by persecuting the Palestinians.... Its Hamas's fault for firing rockets into Israel... and so on

I completely agree with Dale (comment 2), Palestinians should use Ghandi for their inspiration. So it may not have worked in the past, I don't know enough to comment on that, but what Hamas is doing now is hardly a raging success

Did you believe that Iraq had WMD's despite the intelligence disclaimers and the inspections? Did you believe the utter nonsense that Al Qaeda and Saddam were working together?

Yes you did.

So many times the extreme anti-Iraq sentiment coexists with other conspiracy theories.

I just wanted to let everyone know (if you don't already know) that Al Jazeera TV/English is now available online through LiveStation.org. You also can watch BBC, two French staions, one German station, one Russian station, an international station, and a couple more, all in English. The French and German stations appear to be audio only. It's amazing that al Jazeera TV has been available to cable companies in the US now for quite a while but has no takers except two or three (The cable company in Burlington, VT is one who carries it). Anyway, al Jazeera is the only international TV station with reporters and camera crews in Gaza right now. The photo coverage is haunting and deeply disturbing. There is 24/7 coverage (almost) of the war now. LiveStation is currently a beta project but seems to work exceptionally well. 24-hour news from around the world, well, not quite all the world, but exceedingly informative.

Mike,

"...do you also think the Sudeten Germans should be firing rockets at someone ? They helped start a war that they lost. They were expelled from what is now the Czech Republic after the war, as were the Prussians expelled from what is now Poland. Is Poland illegally occupying East Prussia ? Is the Czech Republic illegally occupying Sudetenland ? The analogy is no straw man."

A perfect example of another Straw Man.

"The Arabs began a war..."

Israel began that war. They drove their tanks right over the peace-keeping forces like they were non-human.

"I was curious about your thoughts about 9/11."

Which was your first Straw Man.

"So many times the extreme anti-Israel sentiment..."

I'm not "anti-Israel". I'm anti-RightWing.

Did you miss the large protest in Tel Aviv today ? Do those Israelis have an "extreme anti-Israel sentiment" ???

Joe, do you also think the Sudeten Germans should be firing rockets at someone ? They helped start a war that they lost. They were expelled from what is now the Czech Republic after the war, as were the Prussians expelled from what is now Poland. Is Poland illegally occupying East Prussia ? Is the Czech Republic illegally occupying Sudetenland ? -- Mike K, @20:50

Um, Mike...? I think you've been studying your WWII history from some abbreviated textbook. Sudetenland was German only since Anschluss; a bare few years before the start of WWII. So, it had simply been returned to its original "owners", after the war.

Similarly, East Prussia belonged to Poland since before 1000. We lost it to Prussian Germans during the partitions of the 18th century and the 20yrs between the wars (we didn't get our independence back till the end of WWI) just wasn't enough time to unscramble the mess left behind after 150yrs of occupation (there were several plebiscites trying to determine what the inhabitants of the territory wanted to do but they were inconclusive).

We finally got Prussia back after WWII. But, we didn't rob them of *their* land; we got back what had, for centuries, been ours.

By comparing Palestinians' claims to those of the Prussians (or Sudeten Germans'), you're suggesting that, at some point, the Palestinians had, illegally, occupied Israel. I don't think that's at all true.

The U.S. promised/pledged to rebuild Iraq. Will Israel do the same for Gaza?

I don't even need Al Jazeera (as per nepeta's suggestion, @21:13). When New York Times --New York Times! -- tells me that Israel is lobbing cluster(fuck)bombs into Gaza, that's all I need to know about Israel's "careful selection" of targets. Cluster bombs aren't selective killers; their intention is to do as much damage as possible, not just now but in the future as well.

US and Israel are just about the only two civilized countries which have refused to forswear the use of those, despite being fully cognizant of the damage they do -- for years -- to civilian population.

Mike K,

"The Arabs began a war rather than accept the UN partition and lost it."

This implies that the Arabs had a moral obligation to accept the partition. Why did they? They were the majority of the population of Palestine at the time--didn't they have a right to a say in who would politically control that land?

exlibra, I think you've been studying your WWII history from some abbreviated textbook. Sudetenland was German only since Anschluss; a bare few years before the start of WWII. So, it had simply been returned to its original "owners", after the war.

So where are the Prussians and Sudenten Germans now ? Or don't you know what happened to them ?

"The Arabs began a war rather than accept the UN partition and lost it."

This implies that the Arabs had a moral obligation to accept the partition. Why did they? They were the majority of the population of Palestine at the time--didn't they have a right to a say in who would politically control that land?

Posted by: Lee

Have you read the history of the partition ? The areas alloted to Israel had majority Jewish population.

The difference is that the Palestinians, left in camps by their brother Arabs, were not expelled by Israel.

Exactly! They were offered to live in Israel, and refused. They went into these camps. The other Arabs refused to let them be assimilated into other countries, so they could use them against Israel, as you people are doing now.

BTW- There was no "Palestine" or two state solution when Jordan occupied the "Palestine" area of the West Bank. All of that came about when Israel kicked Jordan's ass. And remember Jews were expelled from Gaza in 1929. Don't they have the right of return? I am a liberal, but it amazes me how you people twist history to fit your concept of the region. You should really read up on the history.

larry,

BTW:

"So, the point stands that the war seems to have had some deterrent value."

On Israel.

During the 'CBS Evening News' which aired Wednesday August 16th, 2006, their National Security Correspondent, David Martin, reported that an assessment by the U.S. military found that "Hezbollah ... came out clearly ahead of Israel in achieving their goals" in the month long war. Martin added that "U.S. intelligence analysts throughout the government agree that Hezbollah's claims of victory cannot be dismissed as empty rhetoric".

gttim:

I am with you here. I am similarly amazed at the anti-Israeli sentiment. No-one in this conflict is perfect, but to portray Israel as purely the protagonist here is overly simplistic and ignores many other factors.

Joey foolishly whined...

Is this Israel's 'shock and awe". Yes, human life (especially a child's) is secondary to making a strong point. Of course Israel has done nothing to instigate how they are being regarded by 'some' Palestinians.

It is called war. The Palestinians have chosen war and rejectionism. So why should they not suffer the consequences of their choice ? Why should they not suffer the consequences of their always demanding today the deal that wasn't good enough for them a defeat ago ?

Israel is under no more moral obligation to those poor, poor Palestinian children than we were to the children of Hamburg and Nagasaki.

Israel believes they must be taught a lesson and will hit them hard. Seems like that was the same thing those who flew planes into the WTC buildings believed..boy did they teach us a lesson. What did we call those actions again...?

Joey, you fool, peace comes when the fire eaters and zealots are burned out. Peace comes when the brave, the proud, the ambitious have it beaten into them that they just plain cannot have what they want. The religious fanatics of Hamas refuse to accept the defeat of 1948. Israel has no choice but to make them do so. Unless and until the Palestinian fire eaters accept and understand that Israel exists and there is nothing they can do to change that, there can be no peace. So Israel is absolutely right to make it clear to the fire eaters of Hamas and indeed the Palestinians of Gaza that the consequence of rejectionism is unbearable suffering. Peace comes when it is beaten into a people that the cost of "victory" or "revenge" is too high.

Are they really so un-resourceful that killing is the only way they can find to live in peace?

Like I said, suffering is how you break the will of your enemy to fight. Suffering is how you force your enemy to accept failure. Has not the suffering of the Second World War destroyed the militaristic far right in German and Japanese politics ? Catastrophic failure tends to do that to militaristic ideologies.

Since the loss of Cyprus, the Greek colonels have behaved themselves. Since the Falklands War the Argentine Army hasn't been disappearing anyone. Defeat has this way of discrediting militarism.

Charles,

"The Palestinians have chosen war"

No, Israel chose to engage in an illegal military occupation, in violation of the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, and international law treaties.

gttim,

"They were offered to live in Israel, and refused. They went into these camps. The other Arabs refused to let them be assimilated into other countries, so they could use them against Israel, as you people are doing now."

Actually, the best evidence suggests that many (although by no means all) of the Palestinians who left were expelled by Jewish forces during the 1948 war.

mike K,

"Have you read the history of the partition ? The areas alloted to Israel had majority Jewish population."

That doesn't change the fact that the Arabs were the majority in Palestine overall. That should count for something. By your logic, one could argue that a state should automatically be allowed to secede from the U.S. if the majority of that state's inhabitants wants to, regardless of what the rest of the nation thinks.

"They were offered to live in Israel, and refused. They went into these camps."

Hey, nice revisionism there. If Palestinians fled their homes, their property was confiscated and turned over to jews. Israel declared they had 'No right of return'.

Israel by definition is a racist state that must have an overwhelming jewish majority. As such, they can't let other ethnic and racial groups taint thier society. This is the reason why the Palestinians were driven out in the first place. If it sounds a bitlike Nazi Germany... hey, if the shoe fits, wear it.

>"not agree with Israel's invasion of Gaza needs to contact his/her Congresspeople and let them know how they feel"

ROFL. Doesn't matter what American people think... AIPAC has the organization and money burrowed so deep into congress... they will just laugh at you.

Israeli and 9-11? Better not go there. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that while the Israelis didn't participate in 9-11 they had a very good idea of both the timing and type of the attack that they didn't choose to share with the US government.

With all the uproar, disagreements on the blogs about the Israeli-Palestinian war, there's really nothing about the protests going on in the streets of America.

Equally said, I'm shocked no comments, heated discussions about some of the protesters here wearing the 'kaffiyeh' or some may spell it as 'keffiyeh.'

Joe Friday simpered....

No, Israel chose to engage in an illegal military occupation, in violation of the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, and international law treaties.

No sovereign nation on this planet is under any moral obligation to accept its people being shot at or to cede its duty to protect them to committees of foreigners.

That doesn't change the fact that the Arabs were the majority in Palestine overall.

There never, ever was a Palestine until Israel kicked Jordan's ass and took over the West Bank- in a war Jordan started. There was never any talk of Palestine, a Palestine state or a Palestine people. They were Arabs, like all the other Arabs in the region. Jordan never mentioned anything about, or invented anything about, Palestine, Paletinians, or giving them their own country. Suddenly after Jordan loses the West Bank they make up all this crap about Palestine as a weapon against Israel. The Arabs in the region locked up all these Arabs now called Palestinians in camps and refuse to let them be absorbed into the surrounding countries because they are a weapon to be used against Israel, both militarily and politically. Never has generation after generation been born into refugee camps, like these people have been.

As far as being a majority, yes Arabs were a majority because they expelled all the Jews. If you try to wipe out an entire people, you become the majority.

Until I hear arguments about returning the US to the Indians, give me a break about the "Palestinians." I feel for these Arabs, but they are being hurt far more by their fellow Arabs than by Israel. Given a choice, the Arabs would again choose to expel or exterminate the Jewish population of the area. They have done it before and would certainly do it again.

gttim,

It's true there never was a nation called "Palestine." But when I used the term, I was referring to the land which the UN voted to partition into a Jewish state and an Arab state in 1947. This land did not include what is today known as Jordan. As I said before, the majority of the people of this area were Arabs (even though Jews were the majority in certain regions), and this was not because of any "expulsion" of Jews.

And the evidence suggests that most of those subsequently expelled from the land were Arabs, not Jews, and that a substantial number of the Arabs who left (although not all) were expelled by Jewish military forces or fled out of fear.

"Until I hear arguments about returning the US to the Indians, give me a break about the "Palestinians."

The clearest parallel to the Indians is not the Palestinians, but Zionism and the creation of Israel. The Indians, like the Jews, have historically suffered a great deal of persecution and mistreatment. And the Indians were the original inhabitants of what became the U.S.--just as Jewish history in Israel predates Arab settlement (and Islam) in the region.

Yet the same people who argue Jews had a self-evident right to a state in Palestine have never argued the same thing with regard to the Indians. I am not arguing that Israel should be attacked or invaded. But if the Indians don't have a clear right to a state (or states, given the many different Indian tribes) of their own, then why did Jews have an obvious right to create Israel?

Charles,

"Joe Friday simpered...."

My, aren't you juvenile ?

"No sovereign nation on this planet is under any moral obligation to accept its people being shot at or to cede its duty to protect them to committees of foreigners."

When you engage in an illegal military occupation, you open yourself up to retaliation.

You can't claim self-defense during the commission of a crime.