Can the US please stop being a client state of Israel? It's embarrassing.

I'm very curious. what would Israel do, if America told Tel Aviv to just "s.t.f.u."?

Would they say naughty things about us?

Would they start referring to us as antisemitic gentiles?

Would they threaten to blockade the Suez, or launch preemptive nuclear strikes on the oil that we're addicted to?

Would they tell their American counterparts to sabotage the US economy?

America needs to start calling Israel's bluff, and expose it for the tattered paper lion that it has become. It is time to do to them as they did to Arafat; it is time to make Israel irrelevant in the greater order of things....

and what message does it send when the prime minister of israel thinks he can order the president of the united states around? if it were me i'd have told him to go to hell.

"America needs to start calling Israel's bluff, and expose it for the tattered paper lion that it has become. It is time to do to them as they did to Arafat; it is time to make Israel irrelevant in the greater order of things...."
Posted by: Steve W

That will happen approximately when Democrats start calling the GOP's bluff. In other words, it ain't going to happen.

Be nice if Condi'd grown a pair and done what was right, for a change, instead of what Dick Cheney told her to do.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the idea here was to get the resolution passed without appearing to lead the vote. Pure proxy politics: we acheive our goal, which is getting everyone else to call bullshit, but without committing ourselves to any specific plan of action. Sneaky, but what are we gonna do--threaten them?

Olmert calls the shots because the US needs him to cover for us when we strongly object to Israel's bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities in a couple of months.

Maybe President Obama needs to make a point to Israel. I wonder if they would get it if he sent a CAIR activist as ambassador?

The resolution should have included language condemning Hamas' continued shelling of civilians, and official statement encouraging terror against "ANY action" taken against Jewish (not Israeli) institutions anywhere on the globe.

To only condemn Israel would have been negligent.

Was Condi just going rogue when she was negotiating the resolution, or were she and Bush not able to foresee Olmert's reaction? I get the impression the Bush Administration has become totally disfunctional. And the farewell party has gone on way too long.

It's like Olmert and Bush have a Nazi scriptwriter.

That's just plain sad. I guess that pretty much shows you who one of Bush's bosses was.

Haaretz says Olmert is a liar-liar-pants-on-fire:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054275.html

"At the last minute, at 3:30 A.M., Prime Minister Ehud Olmert also intervened with a desperate phone call to President George W. Bush, requesting that the United States veto the resolution. Bush refused, simply instructing Rice to abstain from the vote.

One doesn't need to know all the details to realize that a late-night phone call between national leaders is the result of a major malfunction in the diplomatic handling of state matters, which reveals a problem in the relationship between Israel and the United States.

If it were not for Bush's friendship, the United States would have joined the supporters of Resolution 1860."

This sounds more right to me - the US has a veto on the Security Council. If Olmert really had the kind of pull he says he has, he could have gotten Bush to pull the plug instead of just abstaining.

My guess is Olmert told Bush that if this went through in the UN, Likud would win the upcoming election. My guess is that Rice also spent a LOT of her own political capital with Bush to get the US on board with this and convinced him that a veto was a bad idea, so he split the baby in half and both sides end up looking stupid. (He should have just let her go through with it - perhaps if Israel got a slap from the US every once in a while they'd become more reasonable. Like dumping cold water on your friend who's too drunk to stand up.)

As suspected, Ehud Olmert is in charge of US policy in the Middle East. I do not expect this to change under an Obama administration.

I think some high level person in the next state department should start tossing around the idea of a single state solution and see if that shakes the Israelis out of their dream of perpetuating this tragedy forever.

Next thing you know people will start thinking that one of the major reasons the US invaded Iraq was that Saddam was paying $20K to the families of suicide bombers. Of course, they will be anti-semites.

In response, a State Department official said Rice wanted to abstain, and it was all part of the plan.

Because the Bush admin has an abstinence only policy;>

C'mon, someone had to say it!

The most remarkable thing here is not that Olmert bullied Bush into abstaining (everybody knows that Bush is weak and spineless and can't stand up to the Israelis), but that Olmert is publicly bragging about it.

Wow. Whether or not the "he got off the podium and talked to me" story is true, it's interesting that Olmert feels free to tell it. It reminds me of when the Saudis simply summoned Cheney for a come-to-Jesus meeting a couple of years ago, and everybody knew it.

Bush didn't stop reading a children's story to a class room on 9/11, but he stops a speech to talk with Olmert?

We have a problem, Houston.

I hope the new sheriff has some backbone. There won't be peace in the middle east until somebody grabs both the Israelis and Palestinians by the scruff of the neck and says shut the f**k up. I guess that won't happen until American domestic politics gets over its devotion to local ethnic group politics. Like the mindless Cubans in Miami the equally clueless Jews in Manhattan are making life miserable for the folks back home. Sometimes telling your friends no is the best thing you can do.

I am getting so fed up to here with our sending these bastards three billion and change a year, and reading about how they tell us to shove our own policies up our collective ass.

Nearly as many Jewish people live in the US as in Israel. This simple fact tells us a lot about why our policy is the way it is.

The resolution should have included language condemning Hamas' continued shelling of civilians, and official statement encouraging terror against "ANY action" taken against Jewish (not Israeli) institutions anywhere on the globe.

In other words, it should have perpetuated the conflation of "Jewish" and "Israeli" and continued implying that all Jews, everywhere, approve of Israel's policies?

That's kind of how we got into this mess in the first place, you know. Synagogues and Jewish centers outside of Israel are getting bombed right now because people assume they support what's going on in Gaza.

The longer this goes on, the more this whole thing reminds me of the support Irish-Americans gave to the IRA, which ended up prolonging that civil war and causing more death and destruction than they ever could have done on their own. Even when most of the people in Ireland and Northern Ireland wanted the violence to end, money from people in the United States who romanticized the IRA kept pouring in and kept the bombings going.

History shows that if they see it as serving their interests, the Israelis would not hesitate to attack the US.

Read up on the USS Liberty.
Then research Johnathan Pollard.
Then the firebombing of the US Embassy in Egypt by Israeli agents. (aka 'The Lavon Affair')
Israeli agents dancing and singing as they filmed the Twin towers collapsing on 9-11. (fact)
Israeli agents quietly expelled from the US after 9-11 (fact).

Put it all together.

At a State Department briefing yesterday, spokesperson Sean McCormack was asked "what message does it send" when Rice fails to vote for a resolution she supports and helped write because the Israeli government called her boss and demanded it

Fixed.

dennisS said:
"I think some high level person in the next state department should start tossing around the idea of a single state solution and see if that shakes the Israelis out of their dream of perpetuating this tragedy forever".

Add the right of return to that one and that will really get their attention.

The bad part is that Olmert is bragging about this. It looks like this proves that Bush is a lapdog to the last hours in office.

The Israeli government has demonstrated its complete control of US foreign policy.

It is time for the US government and the the US media to tell the truth about an Israeli government that has lost its moral compass.

There will be no peace in the Middle East until the US tells the Israeli government to STFU and stop being a criminal state, intent on genocide of the Palestinians.

What is really telling is that Rice may actually have some cahones about reigning in rogue Israel, and Olmert had to go nuclear by doing an end run to Bush. By making Rice abstain, Bush made her look like an idiot, as idiotic as he is.

However, for Olmert to feel so comfortable as to tell that story in public is astoundingly revealing. The Isreali's believe they have absolute impunity as far as the US is concerned, and certainly over the past eight years they have. Plus the amount of influence Israel has in our Congress is shameful.

Unfortunately, Obama won't change much. He's already kissed AIPAC's ring, as all national politicians must if they hope to survive politically. There is a cancer in the US government, and it is Israel.

With friendships like these who needs AIPAC?

Wrap your mind around this: George Bush, who would not interrupt a photo op with schoolchildren when he learned that the United States was under terrorist attack, did interrupt a speech to take a call from Olmert.

What does that tell us?

Mnemosyne writes "Synagogues and Jewish centers outside of Israel are getting bombed right now because people assume they support what's going on in Gaza."

Well, very few Jews appear to be standing up to oppose the Israeli action. This is the problem - due to knee-jerk hysterical screams of "Anti-Semite! Nazi!" etc from the far right Israeli lobby in the US, no non-Jew dares to say anything against the Israeli government.

And, if no non-Jew can speak, while Jews who feel uncomfortable with Israel's actions remain silent, the blitzkreig against Gaza and the whole occupation continues, largely unchallenged. After all, the Jews are for it, aren't they?

This is an embarrassing extreme of what the standard conservative foreign policy since WWII has been: We refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of our "enemies" while kowtowing to our "friends." And that policy went on steroids the day Bush took over the Whitehouse. And it's all based upon the idea that America is so weak that we can't even talk to our enemies or stand up to our friends.

And the solution is to stop pretending that this is high school and that our foreign policy is based upon supporting our bff's. Diplomacy is a tough game and in the end, there are no friends. Just competitors who we might want to team up with. Israel knows this and doesn't have some undying loyalty to us. And we're the schmucks who keep wondering why the hunky guy who said he loved us the night before won't return our calls the next day. Sorry America, but Israel's just not that into you.

Whatever other amazing aspects there are to this story, it also shows just how egotistical and dim-witted politicians like Olmert can be:
In order to be able and bragg about his immense pull with Goerge Bush, Olmert practically insured that the Obama administration will be highly incentivized to provide an early public rebuke (if only a symbolic one) to the Israeli government, just to show that they don't take such orders.

I'm trying to imagine the furor that would rise on rightwing blogs if Olmert told that story when Obama was in office.

In order to be able and bragg about his immense pull with Goerge Bush, Olmert practically insured that the Obama administration will be highly incentivized to provide an early public rebuke (if only a symbolic one) to the Israeli government, just to show that they don't take such orders.

Or, maybe Olmert knows that the Israel, or at least the Israel lobby in the US, has enough pull with the Obama Administration to prevent such a rebuke even in these circumstances.

"It looks like this proves that Bush is a lapdog to the last hours in office"
Bush isn't the only lapdog. Try including nearly the entire democratic and republican lapdog contingent in DC.

What strikes me about the impasse in Gaza and the gas delivery problems in europe, among many other situations, is the galactically staggering incompetence of the entire political class.

"it is time to make Israel irrelevant in the greater order of things...."
______________

And what would that greater order of things look like? It's not like we'd be in a better position to stop Hamas or Hezbollah from killing and trying to wipe out Israel. How can Israel become irrelevant when it is the target of everyone's actions?

Would anyone seriously suggest that any other country in the world, facing the threat of extinction and the attacks of actual enemies, should become irrelevant? We give the Russian puppets in South Ossetia more respect than that.

"I hope the new sheriff has some backbone. There won't be peace in the middle east until somebody grabs both the Israelis and Palestinians by the scruff of the neck and says shut the f**k up."
________________

What exactly does that mean? How can we threaten Hamas or Hezbollah more than Israel can?

thats exactly why olmert is saying this he is trying to brown-nose the incoming dems,you stupid people who hate the jews. take a trip and dodge some rockets before you critisize isreal

"I think some high level person in the next state department should start tossing around the idea of a single state solution...."
___________________

The only trouble with this idea is that the Palestinian concept of a single state solution doesn't include any living Jews. Once you get past that little road block, it might be something to discuss.

Israel is not remotely under the threat of extinction. Forty years ago they were more powerful than all their enemy neighbors combined. Now they are orders of magnitude more powerful AND they have nuclear weapons. They also have peaceful relations with some of those neighbors.

and the attacks of actual enemies

Only three Israelis in seven years died from rockets launched from Gaza. I would bet that many people died from slip and falls in Israeli discos in that same period.

Conversely, hundreds of Palestinians were killed by Israelis during that same period, in addition to being starved, left without electrical power and fuel, blockaded, brutalized by Israeli guards, and prevented from moving freely in their own country.

This story shows that our president was literally controlled by the head of a foreign power. If it were France, I'm sure that would register with your ganglia and give you some pause. The fact that it's Israel and that means scary brown people are involved apparently triggered your reflex to throw any real fealty to your country or Constitution out the window once again.

George Washington is rolling over in his grave.

"Sorry America, but Israel's just not that into you."
_______________

The trouble is, Hamas and Hezbollah are even less into us and never will be, even if we dumped Israel and sent them all the flowers and candy they want.

This is the problem - due to knee-jerk hysterical screams of "Anti-Semite! Nazi!" etc from the far right Israeli lobby in the US, no non-Jew dares to say anything against the Israeli government.

At least in the US, even Jews who speak out against Israel's policies have to deal with the same screams, though they get even more fun ones like "kapo."

There are actually many Jewish people and organizations that speak out against Israel's policies, but they don't have the deep pockets and connections that AIPAC does.

"Israel is not remotely under the threat of extinction."
________________

You confuse threat with capability. Israel's enemies might not be able to carry out their threat, but the existence of the threat remains and continues to drive their actions.

The number of actual deaths is irrelevant, though it ignores other aspects of the rocket attacks. No sovereign government can allow any attacks to go on indefinitely. Israel repeatedly goes through periods of restraint in the face of such attacks only to see its citizens become increasingly radicalized. Once their patience runs thin, the government must act.

This cycle will continue until the Palestinians give up their threat to extinguish Israel and act accordingly.

>"The only trouble with this idea is that the Palestinian concept of a single state solution doesn't include any living Jews. "

Bullshit. What the Palestinians want is a non-aparthied state... where they can own land, move freely and work where they choose in the land of their birth. I think 99% of the Palestinian population would accept this just fine.

The Zionists can't and won't accept a single 'open' state... as it means an end to Israel as a state 'dominated by Jews'. [Literally Aparthied by definition]

This is so much like South Africa that it ain't funny. The forces that brought an end to Aparthied there were finally economic, in the form of widespread boycotts. However, so far, Israeli political interests in the USA have been able to quash any serious notions of boycotts being applied to them.

thats exactly why olmert is saying this he is trying to brown-nose the incoming dems,you stupid people who hate the jews.

Little hint: You don't "brown-nose" the next administration by publicly bragging you were able to get the previous administration to dance to your tune whenever you wanted. That's called "extortion" or "arm-twisting," not "brown-nosing." Maybe there's a language barrier?

You confuse threat with capability. Israel's enemies might not be able to carry out their threat, but the existence of the threat remains and continues to drive their actions.

Wait, so even though Israel's enemies have no capability to actually carry out their threat, they should still be treated as though they're not only capable of carrying it out, but as though they're carrying out that threat even as we speak ... why, exactly?

I'm guessing you're one of those nutjobs who's convinced that an American caliphate is just around the corner -- after all, al-Qaeda threatened to do it even though they have absolutely no way of accomplishing it, so clearly it's going to happen any second now and the entire United States is going to have to follow shari'a law if we're not careful!

"Bullshit. What the Palestinians want is a non-aparthied state...."
______________

You can't prove that by their statements or actions. We might be willing to roll the dice on the chance that Palestinians don't want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews therein. All we have to do now is convince the Israelis to take the chance.

But before we do, you might take a survey of most Arab states and see what their policy is towards resident Jews - if they allow any.

"Wait, so even though Israel's enemies have no capability to actually carry out their threat, they should still be treated as though they're not only capable of carrying it out, but as though they're carrying out that threat even as we speak...."
________________

No, Israel's enemies actions are governed by their rhetoric. Since their stated goal is the destruction of Israel, any violent action is warranted, with no further specific provocation needed. That means suicide bombing, kidnapping and murder, rocketry and any other deadly thing they can think of, at a time and place of their own choosing.

Because they cannot attain their stated goal, they rely on Western opinion to restrain any Israeli response. They probably also hope that repeatedly prodding Israel into armed response will eventually weaken US support. It's a smart move by the weaker opponent.

The Israelis, on the other hand, must balance the desire of their people to strike back against whatever pushback they'll get from the West, particularly the US.

In the current round of fighting, Israel has followed the pattern of past exisodes. It has killed a few hundred Hamas fighters, destroyed some military targets and killed some civilians. Israel can't "win" unless it severely damages Hamas and eliminates their ability to fire more rockets into Israel. Hamas will "win" if, after the incursion, it can still claim control of Gaza and can still fire more rockets into Israel. It remains to be seen if Israel can withstand the pressure to quit before achieving its goals. If it cannot, then Hamas wins this round and Israel's enemies will be encouraged to act in accordance with their stated intent to destroy Israel.

In the current round of fighting, Israel has followed the pattern of past exisodes. It has killed a few hundred Hamas fighters, destroyed some military targets and killed some civilians.

"Some" civilians? Have you heard the Amazing Changing Story of Bombing the UN School? First they said it was because rockets were fired from inside the school's courtyard and made a lot of bluster about "human shields." Then they said it was because rockets were fired from near the school. Now they're saying it was an accident.

But, hey, keep making excuses for a country that thinks its perfectly fine to bomb a school where people have been directed to take shelter, lie about why they did it, and then say, "Oops! It was all a mistake. Too bad, so sad."

Out of curiosity, how many Palestinians need to die in this foray to make up for the 7 Israelis who have died since it began? We're over 900 dead now -- how many more have to die before Israel feels those 7 Israelis have been sufficently avenged? We're already past 100 Palestinians for every dead Israeli -- what proportion will make you happy? 500 to 1? 7,000 -- 1,000 Palestinians for every dead Israeli?

"But, hey, keep making excuses for a country that thinks its perfectly fine to bomb a school where people have been directed to take shelter, lie about why they did it, and then say, "Oops! It was all a mistake. Too bad, so sad."
_______________

I'm not making excuses for Israel. It is a fact that mistakes happen in war. Another fact remains, if Israel's intent was to kill civilians or simply not care if civilians were killed, you'd see a far larger butcher's bill.

" It has killed a few hundred Hamas fighters, destroyed some military targets and killed some civilians" some civilians? according to NPR it is 900 as of today. and many children among them. and now all Gaza children will hate Israel even more bitterly after all these deaths. I see no point to that. Of course Israel should "defend itself" or present some unified opposition, but killing 900 people against 5-10 of their own seems counterproductive to any longterm solution. There will always be more radicalized terrorists after each of these incidents. How is this helpful to peace and Israel's future? I just don't see it anymore. Israel should should consider economic paths to peace in Gaza. I'm just the average uninformed American, but I am appalled by Israel's apparent indifference to dead children. How is this helping their cause unless their cause is just the annihilation of Hamas? How will that help as another version of Hamas is virtually ensured of springing up after any crippling of the current Hamas organization via the "unavoidable" deaths of at least 100 children? I am sympathetic to the Israeli position, but the more this kind of military action goes on, the more the sympathy erodes. "Hamas will "win" if, after the incursion, it can still claim control of Gaza and can still fire more rockets into Israel. It remains to be seen if Israel can withstand the pressure to quit before achieving its goals. If it cannot, then Hamas wins this round and Israel's enemies will be encouraged to act in accordance with their stated intent to destroy Israel." Is this a rational approach to a longterm solution???
Very Bush-like actually, so I guess that explains the so-called "friendship with Bush."

You confuse threat with capability. Israel's enemies might not be able to carry out their threat, but the existence of the threat remains and continues to drive their actions.

No, in fact you are the one who is, by definition, trying to confuse threat with capability on purpose. You said Israel is "faced with the threat of extinction." That phrase means that they could possibly be made extinct by their enemies. Again, that is not remotely possible.

Secondly, Israel has had former enemies who swore to destroy them and with whom they now have peace, showing that it is not only possible, but a way that works, as opposed to bombing civilians and creating that many more converts to Hamas or Hezbollah.

Israel can't "win" unless it severely damages Hamas and eliminates their ability to fire more rockets into Israel.

Then Israel can never "win," because they are only strengthening Hamas with these attacks and creating a guerilla movement that they'll never be able to stop. Every day people on the street are interviewed and say that either they have not supported Hamas in the past but will now after the brutal attacks by Israel, or at least testify that they know people who will.

On the other hand, Israel can choose to honor the terms of their treaties -- which they did not do with Hamas -- and stop trying to exert collective punishment on a people in defiance of the Geneva Conventions. Maybe they will make progress towards stopping those "devastating" rocket attacks.

If it cannot, then Hamas wins this round and Israel's enemies will be encouraged to act in accordance with their stated intent to destroy Israel.

Absolutely false. Hamas has only been sending those impotent rockets into Israel to draw attention toward the humanitarian tragedy that Israel has created in Gaza. They spent six months NOT sending those rockets in return for promises of opening the blockage for food supplies -- which never came.

From the Carter Foundation:

We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.

Please do continue posting your alternative history of events. That allows us to really get into the details and make people aware of what has really been transpiring there to help move public opinion.

"Out of curiosity, how many Palestinians need to die in this foray to make up for the 7 Israelis who have died since it began?"
_________________

I don't know. How long should Israel have allowed attacks on its territory and populace before it acted? In wartime, there is no calculus to determine the "right" number of losses. If Clausewitz is to be believed, the only measurement of success in war is which side has succeeded in gaining their political objectives. Since this incursion is a single battle in the long Israeli/Arab war, we are unlikely to see a clearcut outcome. One side might do better than the other in furthering their ultimate goals, but it's unlikely that we'll know that immediately.

"Since this incursion is a single battle in the long Israeli/Arab war, we are unlikely to see a clearcut outcome. One side might do better than the other in furthering their ultimate goals, but it's unlikely that we'll know that immediately."
When people post things like this, it says to me that they have no interest in an end to the war at all. Which I guess explains your lack of response to trex just now. "do better" ???

"You said Israel is 'faced with the threat of extinction.' That phrase means that they could possibly be made extinct by their enemies."
________________

No it doesn't mean that. While the current potential is low, the threat of extinction still exists in theory and Israel must face it. Thus, they take the idea of an Iranian nuke more seriously than most countries. They likewise must take seriously the idea that the US might stop supporting them (as well as Egypt and Jordan).

No one knows what changes in the balance of power might occur in the future. Therefore, Israel has no choice but to believe its enemies when they say their purpose is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.

"now all Gaza children will hate Israel even more bitterly after all these deaths. I see no point to that. Of course Israel should "defend itself" or present some unified opposition, but killing 900 people against 5-10 of their own seems counterproductive to any longterm solution. There will always be more radicalized terrorists after each of these incidents."
___________________

So, what was the proper level of response?

And the idea of radicalization works both ways. How come nobody allows for radicalized Israelis? How long could you listen to repeated statements from your enemies that they want you, your family, and your nation all dead? There is no comparable Israeli statement. No one believes that the Israelis want all Palestinians dead.

How radicalized would you get in that situation?

Therefore, Israel has no choice but to believe its enemies when they say their purpose is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.

No enemy of Israel has EVER said their purpose is to "kill all the Jews." Ever.

Iran has NEVER threatened to destroy Israel. Ever. Ahmadinejad has only quoted Khomeini saying that God (and, at times, specifically "Jesus") will not allow a corrupt Zionist government to continue any more than He allowed the government of the Soviet Union to persist.

Jews in Iran enjoy special protection from the government and have representation in parliament. When Khomeini returned from Europe he made sure that all Iranians knew that they were Iranians first and Jews, Muslims, Druze, et al second. Jews in Iran became MORE religious and observant after the Iranian Revolution, and have resisted transparent bribes from the U.S. and Israel to emigrate.

Hamas is committed to the liberation of Palestine, and to that end the destruction of Israeli regimes that support that end. But they actually dropped that goal from their manifesto in 2006, only to be kicked in the teeth by Israel in return.

Thus, they take the idea of an Iranian nuke more seriously than most countries.

Iran would never, EVER, set off a nuke in Israel. There are too many innocent Muslims and Christians there, for starters. Jerusalem is one of the holiest cities to Muslims, second only to Mecca. It is the original qiblah as directed by the Prophet, and it would be unthinkable for the Imams to destroy it. And Iran knows that at least two countries would turn it into glass if it tried. No country is going to choose annihilation for no gain whatsoever.

In fact, Iran has been trying to restrain the recent fighting. Last week Iran told Hezbollah in no uncertain terms that they were not to join in attacks against Israel.

It's clear from your remarks that you don't know the details of the history of this conflict and the relations and goals of the players -- or are trying to obfuscate them.

Out of curiosity.... Has anyone bothered to check the truth of Olmert's story? That is, on the day he says he called Bush, *had* Bush in fact been in Philadelphia, giving a speech? And, if so, had he in fact interrupted it to take the call? It should have been fairly easy to confirm at least a part of the story, since President's schedule is usually public as is a speech. Who was he giving the speech to? What did he say to his public after he returned to the podium to continue? "Laura was worried about my safety", a la Giuliani?

I'm surprised that everyone is accepting the story without asking any questions at all...

No one believes that the Israelis want all Palestinians dead

That may or may not be true. But if it's not true, then why are they starving them in response to a democratic election? Why have they strangled them economically? Why have they bombed clearly identified refugee centers and U.N. aid convoys? Why are over 30% of the casualties children? Why have they refused to honor treaties that deal with the Gazans simply being able to survive on a day to day basis?

There is no comparable Israeli statement.

There is no Palestinian statement like that, it's just some bullshit you've made up. But it's interesting to see you pretend that there are no radical Israeli groups. Stern gang? International terrorists? Kahane? Terrorists wanted by Israel AND the U.S.

Idiot.

"Israel can never "win," because they are only strengthening Hamas with these attacks and creating a guerilla movement that they'll never be able to stop."
________________

This "unwinnable war" argument is almost as old as the old Lenin/Mao/Guevera "inevitability" argument and just as bogus. Try catching up on your professional military education instead of googling more ignorant opinions.

I don't need to have an opinion about the rightness of either side to comment on the military aspects of this conflict. But one should note that shooting rockets isn't really a normal way of seeking better treatment. And didn't the Egyptians have a bit to do with the closing off of the borders?

One could equally accuse you of having an alternative history, trex. At the very least you're spending an awful lot of time trying to prove how bad the Israelis are and how blameless Hamas is. Do you have a specific ideological concern or are you just making internet points proving what a swell fellow you are?

One could equally accuse you of having an alternative history, trex.

No one could not, as the incidents I have cited in these remarks and others are recorded history and not a matter of debate. On the other hand, context-free remarks like "Israel has followed the pattern of past episodes" are misleading and biased, and totally ignore Israel's culpability in this conflict.

Statements like "their purpose is to kill all the Jews" are absolutely false and concocted by you in the service of some sort of ideological agenda. Probably the whole Air Force God-Boy "God will bless those who bless Israel" thing with a healthy dose of racism against Arabs, but who's to say?

"No enemy of Israel has EVER said their purpose is to "kill all the Jews." Ever.

There is no Palestinian statement like that, it's just some bullshit you've made up."
_________________

Trex, you're getting a little hysterical. Not to mention you are lying. Chill, bro.

This "unwinnable war" argument is almost as old as the old Lenin/Mao/Guevera "inevitability" argument and just as bogus. Try catching up on your professional military education instead of googling more ignorant opinions.

I only have to look at how neoconservative hosebags like yourself CREATED an insurgency in Iraq to know the truth of this, an insurgency that grew stronger with more attacks, while I stood on the corners in 2002 and warned that it would happen.

But you are correct, Israel can win just like Iraq was pacified and the Soviet Union pacified its own dissidents: through ethnic cleansing. Israel has attacked Palestine for decades and it has only ended in the popular election of a militant group to power. That way simply doesn't work. You're right, they can either work for peace or wipe out a people in defiance of the laws of God and man. The choice really is theirs.

Trex, you're getting a little hysterical. Not to mention you are lying. Chill, bro.

Really? Then cite it, asshole. We need to assess the threat status, right? Other than Mahmouf the baker in some backwater slum of Cairo, who has said that all the Jews should be killed?

"Really? Then cite it, asshole."
_______________

Truth hurt, trex? Well, profanity helps sooth the jangling nerves, doesn't it?

I'll get you some cites after dinner. But you could find them yourself, as you very well know.

I'll get you some cites after dinner. But you could find them yourself, as you very well know.

Uh, no. And google searches take under a minute. In the nine minutes you took to respond you could have come up with them if you know of any, and you don't.

Game over asswipe.

Also, I use profanity as a matter of course when dealing with cheerleaders of human destruction and misery. But you know that from experience. Lame attempt at bravado, though.

You made the assertion. Back it up. It isn't incumbent upon anyone but you to prove your point for you.

"And google searches take under a minute. In the nine minutes you took to respond you could have come up with them if you know of any, and you don't.

Game over asswipe."
________________

Well, keep it classy, as always, trex. You want cites, I'll get them. Note, though, two things: 1) I didn't want to get into this - you did, because of your insistence that Israel is, apparently, the source of all evil and that Israel's enemies are completely innocent of holding nasty intent.

"Jews are a people who cannot be trusted," Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas told the faithful. "They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Look what they are doing to us." International Herald Tribune, 1 Apr 08

"Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews." Same source.

"We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity," senior Hamas figure Fathi Hammad said at the funeral of Imam Nazir Rayan on 9 Jan 09. BBC News

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). From the Hamas Charter

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim). The Hamas Charter.

Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs... These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people...The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated." The Hamas Charter

"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there." Hamas Charter

"Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion." Hamas Charter

More to follow.

About the supposed removal of the call to destroy Israel:

"Hamas did not mention its call for the destruction of Israel in its electoral manifesto" (but not their charter).[37]. Wikipedia, citing a UK Guardian article 12 Jan 06. The article states: "Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight...."

However, immediately after the election, from the UK Telegraph, 9 Feb 06: A senior Hamas leader, "Mr Meshaal was speaking before a crucial Hamas meeting in Cairo on how the Islamist movement will form the new Palestinian government. While he promised a possible "long-term ceasefire� he refused to commit the organisation to a full renunciation of violence, which is demanded of Hamas by the international community and Israel.

Its charter warns that Israel faces elimination by Islam and calls for holy war or jihad against non-Muslim claimants of Palestine."

On CNN, 30 Jan 06: "Top Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar told CNN that a "long-term hudna or long-term truce" is possible. He would not commit to negotiating with Israel and would not say whether recognizing Israel's existence is a long-term possibility."

Excerpts from an interview with Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, which aired on Al-Manar TV on January 25, 2006:

"Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the (Mediterranean) Sea to the (Jordan) River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy's [right] to a single inch."

Interviewer: "Condoleezza Rice has demanded that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist. How do you respond?"

Mahmoud Al-Zahhar: "Why should we recognize Condoleezza Rice... or Israel's right to exist? In this region we have face Roman occupation, Persian occupation, Crusader occupation, British occupation - they are all gone. The Israeli enemy does not belong to the region."

"If today, we are unable to win the conflict decisively, for reasons known to all, we must not pass on to our sons a disgraceful defeat by recognizing the Israeli enemy's right to exist, where it has no such right."

There's are numerous cites about Hamas and their pushing of "The Protocols of Zion" - skipped for brevity, look them up yourself.

Many people noticed the AP release of this: "Anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on Wednesday urged reprisals against American forces in Iraq to protest Israel's Gaza offensive, as Arab anger grows over civilian deaths in the Palestinian territory."

Many blogs also noted this on 7 Jan 09: "Islamic cleric Salah Sultan appeared on Egypt’s Al-Nas TV last week and delivered a warning of death and destruction for America. Not only did he attack the U.S. for its military support of Israel in its fight against the Hamas terrorist organization, but he vowed retaliation."

The cleric also referred to the hadith about killing Jews: "The stone, which is thrown at the Jews, hates these Jews, these Zionists, because Allah foretold, via His Prophet Muhammad, that Judgment Day will not come before the Jew and the Muslim fight."

Sultan is a US resident, with a US passport, and has applied for US citizenship.

Some will take comfort in this portion of the Hamas Charter:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam."

To balance this, we have:

"Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."

We can argue till the cows come home about which quote is authoritative and which supersedes the other. Some might even believe that Hamas doesn't threaten Jews, merely the Zionist state. (Though how one can separate the two I have no idea.)

But the real point is that the Israelis hear this stuff and worse every day. It is no wonder that they believe their enemies are serious about eradicating the Jewish state, and of necessity, most of them.

For the record, I am for a Palestinian state. But Hamas doesn't just want that. They want all of Palestine and they mean to remove Israel, if ever circumstances allow them to do so.

Well, keep it classy, as always, trex. You want cites, I'll get them. Note, though, two things: 1) I didn't want to get into this - you did, because of your insistence that Israel is, apparently, the source of all evil and that Israel's enemies are completely innocent of holding nasty intent.

Oh dear me, whatever shall I do now that you have decided to "bring it"?

The strawman attributing views on Israel to me that I don't possess? Pathetic.

First of all, let's establish that you absolutely failed to support your assertion, which was that Israel's enemies have "called for all Jews to be killed."

There is nothing in what you cited that supports that. So once again you've been caught lying.

I realize you're fairly brain dead so let me elucidate for you the fact that Zionism and Judaism are not only two very different things, but that they are very different things in the minds of Muslims. There are Muslims who are against Zionism -- which is the political control of Israel by Jews to the detriment of the Muslims there -- but they are not calling for Jewish genocide.

So all the quotes that call for an end to Zionism do not mean what you think they do. Way to try and throw up all kinds of bullshit against the wall and hope that some sticks, though.

Jew will hide behind rocks and trees

The most controversial of all the statements. It is not something that Hamas made up, but is part of the Hadith. Yes, I know you don't know what that is. You can look it up, I'm not giving this stuff away for free. Anyways, this statement as controversial as it is does NOT call for the genocide of all Jews. It is a descriptive statement of the Prophet about what will be happening in the end times. As you know, the Bible is filled with similar statements about horsemen and seals and wars and millions dying for various reasons that some Christians have interpreted as prophecies of the end of time.

This staetment is being used by Hamas here as a call to action. If you want to understand it in terms of your own culture, it is a cognate of this statement:

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

It is both a complaint and a call to arms against an oppressor using religion to bolster the case. Thank goodness there is nothing like that in American history.

So the charter was written in 1987. I wonder, what have the leaders of Hamas had to say about Muslim/Jewish relations since then that can clarify this issue? From 2006:

Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.

We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

Khalid Mish'al, head of the political bureau of Hamas

Not only is the head of Hamas NOT calling for genocide, he is open to a ceasefire -- and indeed agreed to one -- and in other statements he basically says that permanent peace is possible with the ceding of certain territories.

The situation of Jews in Iran that I mentioned also disproves any claims you might dream up that Ahmadinejad has called for a genocide against the Jews.

So you're wrong -- again. Yes, you found a bunch of racist statements against Jews. I wonder how many anti-Semitic statements I could dig up from prominent American figures in five minutes? Henry Ford? Father Coughlin? Richard Nixon? Mel Gibson? Offhand I can think of a recent case of member of the Air Force academy who is Jewish who was harassed by the God Boys for this faith.

We can argue till the cows come home about which quote is authoritative and which supersedes the other. Some might even believe that Hamas doesn't threaten Jews, merely the Zionist state. (Though how one can separate the two I have no idea.)

You have "no idea" because you're a dishonest idiot trying to sell a meme. There are JEWS who are against Zionism! And there are both popular movement and political parties in Jerusalem who are decrying the actions of their own regime.

But this gets us back to our original point. Not only has Hamas NOT called for all Jews to be killed -- nor has any other credible state actor, ever -- they have made it explicitly clear in word and deed (agreeing to a ceasefire) that they want peace -- and they've made it explicitly clear by their impotent rocket attacks that they are not even a minor threat to Israel.

You have ignored a dozen refutations of your nonsense in this thread and kept moving the goalposts for that next thing. In fact, you've pretty much lost every point. You can't address the collective punishment being meted out against Palestinians, the 70 or so UN resolutions Israel has violated over the years and on and on. That's the definition of trolling and of desperation.

So you're wrong -- again. Yes, you found a bunch of racist statements against Jews. I wonder how many anti-Semitic statements I could dig up from prominent American figures in five minutes?

As long as we're looking at Antisemitism we can't fail to note pretty much the entire history of Christianity wherein Jews were seen as the source of all evil, killed by the tens of thousand in the Spanish Inquisition, relegated to ghettos, deprived of rights, etc.

that they want peace

Just to clarify, that should read that they're "open to negotiations for peace." At the moment, though, they're clearly out for revenge.

This "unwinnable war" argument is almost as old as the old Lenin/Mao/Guevera "inevitability" argument and just as bogus. Try catching up on your professional military education instead of googling more ignorant opinions.

I don't need to have an opinion about the rightness of either side to comment on the military aspects of this conflict.

This is pretty rich coming from someone who doesn't seem to have ever heard of asymmetrical warfare or insurgency and seems to think that Palestine is an independent country with its own military that just happens to be shooting rockets at Israel for no reason.

You're trying to claim this is the Iraq/Iran War when it's actually Great Britain vs. the IRA. Ask the British (or the French in Indochina, or the French in Algeria) how well it worked out when they treated an insurgency like they were an opposing country that could be driven out.

Typical, trex. Lots of insults, lots of bobbing and weaving, lots of redefining the issues. "Keep 'em on the defensive with snide comments about ignorance." That's my boy. One frigging cite on point, because you didn't intend to discuss, merely to harangue. No way you were ever going to give the other side any consideration, because you don't care about the real truth, merely your personalized version it.

You're a bullshitter and a bloviator non pareil, trex. You have a good night, now.

Some might even believe that Hamas doesn't threaten Jews, merely the Zionist state. (Though how one can separate the two I have no idea.)

I didn't realize that all of the world's Jews live in Israel. I had a notion that there was this thing called a "diaspora" and that there were Jews living all over the world.

Interesting to find out that if Israel ever vanished for some reason, all Jews would vanish since they all live there.

"Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."

Sorry, I missed the cite -- which page of the Hamas charter does the above quote appear on?

No way you were ever going to give the other side any consideration, because you don't care about the real truth, merely your personalized version it.

Oh you poor thing. Yes, when the "other side" is dishing out a hash of falsehoods and obfuscations I don't give it any consideration. Don't want the abuse? Don't peddle bullshit.

One frigging cite on point

Do let's have some cites:

On the issue of Zionism being inseparable from Judaism:

True Torah Jews Against Zionism:

True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization of Orthodox Jews dedicated to informing the world that all Jews do not support the Zionist state called Israel

www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism:

Neturei Karta is an international organization of Orthodox Jews dedicated to the propagation and clarification of Torah Judaism.

www.nkusa.org/

Jews Not Zionists:

Taking the position that any form of Zionism is heresy from the Torah. Links to other organizations, and additional information.

www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Satmar Jews Against Zionism:

Orthodox Jews opposed to Zionism

www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm

All I can say is: duh.

On the issues of Jews and Arabs living in harmony and Iran's reputed genocidal stance:

Iran bans volunteers from fighting Israel - washingtonpost.com

Jan 8, 2009 ... TEHRAN, Iran -- Iran's top leader banned hardline Iranian volunteers on Thursday from leaving the country to carry out suicide bombings ...

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010802222.html

Persian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

On a CONTEXTUAL history of the recent conflict:

Jimmy Carter - An Unnecessary War

I know from personal involvement that Israel's invasion of Gaza could have been avoided.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645_pf.html -

People! don't be fooled. Can't you see that the posters from Ministry of Disinformation in Tel Aviv are trying to steer the conversation away from the topic of Olmert's claim that he order President Bush not to vote for the resolution. All of a sudden they have changed the conversation to Gaza invasion.

I know this - everything that I have retained from all those years of Hebrew School tells me that in this instance, Israel is wrong.