Can you imagine George Bush sequestering himself in a room with 20-30 Democrats -- on Capitol Hill -- to hear a critique of his proposals?

Bush never had the the mastery of issues to do this --

What's more, the article added that Republicans "slapped" Obama's "outstretched hand

I must have missed it. When did the Republicans unclench their fist?

Bipartisanship encourages inclusion, it doesn't demand it. They may stay in the woods as the party of opposition and obstruction if they like. Americans have spoken in regards to Republican politics.

Following the lead of our former great president, George W. Bush, the republican party has always been a 'party of compromise' with the democrats.

Our compromise is to have the dumbocrats give us everything we want. After that, we compromise by being less nasty (slightly) to the dumbs than the great communicator Rush Limbaugh. You liberal bloggers should learn from the examples of Harry Reid & Nancy Pelosi. We compromised (with) them for the previous 2 years & look how great that turned out!

As a solid republican, I see no reason to believe that Harry or Nancy have grown any more spine than they have exibited over the last 2 years. We republicans should continue to excoriate Obama and the dumbs. It keeps the spirits up among our voter base (the low information voter); it confuses the issues with other voters; and it feels good. As always, we know that our corporately owned media will continue as an echo chamber and amplifier for our message, regardless of truth or relevance.

"Bipartisanship encourages inclusion, it doesn't demand it."

That is perfect explanation, and I wish more MSM folks would begin to understand that.

None of us thought Republicans would actually deal with Obama honestly. Obama's not a dumb man and I can't imagine he thought any differently. He knew this wasn't going to work, but it was essential that he go through the motions. With even Politico coming one step from labeling Republicans as dreaded "obstructionists" (which IS what they meant by "opposition party), things are already looking better for Obama.

Republicans were never bipartisan, but as long as they could convince the media that this was our fault, we started out with a big disadvantage. Obama is flipping that right around. By showing up to talk with them personally, even David Broder will find it difficult to blame Dems for this. This is setting the tone for the next two years, and is likely to just get better for Obama. We didn't need Republicans and by allowing them to get the first punch, it'll make it easier for us to politely beat the tar out of them.

Heroes always act polite, even when they know they're dealing with super-villains. You just got to wait for the villain to move first or you're no better than them. It ain't fair, but them's the rules.

Why would the One be seeking GOP votes when the Dems will pass anything he wants and no GOP votes in either House will be needed? (You're dreaming if you think the GOP will attempt to filibuster this Obamination.) As Rush correctly pointed out, the sole reason for his hunt for GOP votes is to give the Congressional Dems political cover for 2010 and for himself in 2012.

When this thing fails so spectacularly, and it will, the Dems are afraid to be the only ones who were on the record of being in favor of it. So go right ahead, Dems. You were the given the majority by the American people and a claim a mandate for change, so act like you have a pair and pass the best damn stimulus package you can. Damn the GOP!!

okay, barack. you tried your best. now remember, you won, they lost.

now is the time to take back the issues you "compromised" on in the first place, slam the bill through congress, and then tell them, "next time, pay attention!"

When stopping an opponent, one must be careful to stay centered and not get off balance, setting up the possibility of then making oneself more vulnerable. The Republi cants will have to thread the needle delicately to prevent themselves from looking like they are just obstructing for its own sake...I would watch my left flank if I were them. An outreach to the public by Obama with a good argument could put them in a bad place. If they slap his outreached hand, they had better be sure they don't get a bigger slap in return for the favor. They have another thought coming if they think that this is the end of it or that he is going to allow himself to be rolled by a minority bunch touting failed policies that a) got us in this mess and b) dont frickin work either...

Just sayin...

Why doesn't anyone ever bring up the fact that they all sat there and helped Bush turn record surpluses into record debt?

Obama is a very good communicator. He has an audience in the general population that is craving information and looking desperately for something positive to hold on to. He certainly has the ability to take what he is experiencing with his efforts at compromise and then explaining to the people what is going on and why he can and will have to go it with Dems only.

We're only a week into this and he can't walk out the front door with his middle finger pointed at RepubCo. But he can make a real production of meeting with the obstructionists and listening which leads up to then being rebuffed. And then he can go before the people and tell them what's going on.

Obama doesn't want to lose this stuff. He's under no illusions about who he's dealing with. If you take an olive branch to the enemy with good intentions and the enemy tells you to shove it up your ass then it's OK to present that to folks and say, "I tried". But until that happens, the enemy gets to claim it's not their fault. Obama has the skills to turn this to his advantage in an evening with a speech explaining what's going on. But the deeper he helps RepubCo to dig their hole, the easier it will be.

What Obama is accomplishing in other areas such as the environment, science and diplomacy show where his intentions lie. He'll have a way of getting his legislation but it's going to require a different sort of approach. He didn't come all this way to raise a white flag in the first two weeks.

You were the given the majority by the American people and a claim a mandate for change, so act like you have a pair and pass the best damn stimulus package you can. Damn the GOP!!

I couldn't agree more with those two sentences. As for the rest, the only thing we know will fail are continuing to follow Repub policies for another 8 years. That's the only proven failure.

"the stimulus bill is still likely to pass, ESPECIALLY IN THE HOUSE"??? Gee, Steve, that's so satisfying. Last time I checked, passage in one house of congress is called defeat, not victory. Obama needs to rally the American people, not Republicans, to support this bill, and he has to do it aggressively and now.

Bob Herbert's rhetorical lede:

What’s up with the Republicans? Have they no sense that their policies have sent the country hurtling down the road to ruin? Are they so divorced from reality that in their delusionary state they honestly believe we need more of their tax cuts for the rich and their other forms of plutocratic irresponsibility, the very things that got us to this deplorable state?

Chicounsel - I agree with the advise in your penultimate sentence, but doesn't it at least bother you a bit that the Republican policies created this mess, and that their only suggestions are more of the same? I mean, being a Republican is not a birth defect. It might be just a temporary infection. So why are you defending it?

Played correctly, this is a major win for Obama. Pass a Democratic bill and say, hey, I tried hard, but the Republicans were not interested in compromise, but instead wanted me to stick to Bush's policies. Pretty hard to dispute that.

I get it.

I totally get it now.

Those in favor of tax-cuts are like abusive sex partners.

They know you'll cave to their demands, the pressure is intense.

Once the "wad" is blown, they're back for more.

The trick is to be a brother or a cousin of the abuser, that way it's harder to be mad at you. Yet all the same they are reducing their taxes.

Obama has my full permission to tell the tax-cut morons to politely position themselves over a hard object and sit down.

What I long to hear Obama say to the request for more tax cuts: "Senator? You can have my answer now, if you like. My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally."

Please cut out the GOP pork and send the bill to be voted on. Let the GOP filibuster it. Let them go on record as stopping progress. PLEASE. Let them spend DAYS fighting this stimulus package. Any American with half a brain in his or her head can see who's impeding progress, now make it so clear even the most diehard Bushies won't be able to defend or excuse it.

I rather think your man is doing a masterful job of image and message control. He is Mr. Reasonable, the more the Republican party plans "strong opposition" in the face of a crisis (above all as they are clumsy and cretinous in their plays beyond their 'base' (horrible phrase that, disgusting concept)). While hardly sympathetic to his more Left policies, I am certain he is gonig to be an excellent President.

Those in favor of tax-cuts are like abusive sex partners.

Tom Nicholson, your, ahem, colorful imagery aside, you've got this one wrong. Republicans are asking for more tax cuts because they know Obama won't do it. And if he does, they'll just ask for more. The truth is that they don't want to vote for this thing at all, but need some excuse other than "Cause I don't wanna."

If anything, i suppose they're like the reluctant sex partner who keeps inventing more reasons for why the "mood" isn't perfect. But I just think of them as stupid jackasses who don't have the brains to know how to be anything else. Their opposition to this bill is a dumb move by people who only have one move.

Actually, I'm guessing the Republicans played right into Obama's hands. Since he won the election, he's been talking about working together with the GOP; now they "slap" his outstretched hand.

This gives Obama and the Dems cover to do whatever they want, and when the Republicans whine about it, the Dems can validly remind people that they tried to bargain in good faith, and the Republicans acted like jerks.

I'm going to enjoy watching the Republicans march lockstep into a Pyrrhic defeat. Again.

I think that there is an alternate reason that Obama is looking for Repub support for the bill. Yes, he is making them dig their own grave on opposing this, but I think he is acting in a more pragmatic way as well.

He's trying to get the legislation passed WITHOUT a filibuster. It is a win either way for him, but he gets more done more quickly if he gets some Repub votes and avoids the filibuster. He's giving them the rope....they can either fashion their own noose with it or pull in the same direction as he is.

I think Obama is bending over backwards to be sure that the Republicans get all the rope they need.

"Whether the House GOP is enjoying itself more now than last week is largely inconsequential."

I don't agree that it's inconsequential. The Democrats laid down, rolled over, sat up, begged, etc. on cue from the Republicans throughout Bush's presidency, even AFTER they became the majority in Congress. The Republicans will get a significant amount of what they want because of the subservience of the Democrats.

This is the time for bold action by the Dems, before the death of a million little cuts by the Repugs.

There's an old trick my great grandmother used to pull, when she needed to clear out the ants that would take up residence in the root-cellar every year: Put a large pie-pan in the middle of the floor, and put a nice dollup of honey in the middle of the pan. Once the ants had all gathered in the middle of the pan, pour in a cup of vinegar, and just let nature take its course.

The earlier negotiations with Boehner and company were the "honey"---and today's meeting on the Hill---knowing in advance what the GOPers had in mind---was nothing more than Obama walking into the room with a great big jug of vinegar.

Rumor has it, of course, that Obama was seen leaving the room with a somewhat sinister gleam in his eyes, but without the jug of vinegar....

"I think Obama is bending over backwards to be sure that the Republicans get all the rope they need."

Exactly. We saw this over and over again during the election, both during the primaries and the general election. Clinton and later McCain were 'beating up' Obama, and his supporters (me included) kept screaming at him "fight back! Don't let them get away with it!"

We never quite saw what happened, but somehow, when the dust cleared, Clinton and later McCain were flat on their backs while Obama sailed serenely past them.

He doesn't so much defeat opponents as give them the opportunity to defeat themselves.

I'll start to worry when a crappy bill gets passed and signed to kowtow to Republicans, but not until then.

Danp:

And what exactly was the Republican policy that you believe "created this mess"?

As far as I can tell, the "mess" was created by the bundling up and subsequent slicing and dicing of the toxic mortgages that were placed into the market by Freddie and Fanny who were approving mortgages to persons who should not have gotten a mortgage, and would not have under traditional banking lending practices. Those toxic mortgages are now technically worthless and the main drain on the banks ability to loan money and extend credit to broader economy.

And who was it that shielded Franny and Freddie from closer scrutimity from government regulators before the "mess" exploded? Ehy it was none other than Barney Frank in the House and Chris Dodd in the Senate, in exchange for campaign contributions and sweetheart deals from them.

So, like every other mess that has to be cleaned up, the cause is always the same, Democrats using government to achieve some goal that they can't get from the free market.

Any Congressional RINO who votes for this, or any other form of a stimulus package should be thrown out by primary voters in 2010.

RepublicanPointOfView - I too am a Republican, though not as partisan as you! Now that you've established your Republican credentials here and in the previous posts today, I have but two questions for you:

I see you are a proud Republican, but what kind of American are you?

One who supports democratic compromise through the legislative process, or one who supports a cult of personality where everything becomes my guy is better than your guy, instead of how can we work to solve the problems and challenges facing our beloved nation?

If your concerns are more with the Republican party than the state of our beloved nation, you will find yourself in the dustbin of history along with your soiree list of the previous thread. -Kevo

This is the time for bold action by the Dems, before the death of a million little cuts by the Repugs.

It's odd how many folks are misremembering what happened to Clinton. He didn't start out as Mr. Bipartisan and it's widely agreed that he never really recovered from his boldest move and it haunted him no matter how popular he became. The death of a million little cuts came BECAUSE Clinton over-reached and they had him over a barrel. After he got burned for acting like a moderate-liberal, he became a moderate-conservative and never looked back.

I just can't understand why so many here believe the Republicans pulled some powerful coup. They got routed. They wanted Obama to take a firm stand, so when they opposed the bill, they could take a principled stand against it. But now they've got nothing. They lost. Game over. They made a few phony demands, Obama called their bluffs, and now they look like powerless schmucks as they refuse to vote for a bill that they helped craft. It wasn't a total victory for us, but it was a total defeat for them. We didn't get everything, but they got nothing. Nothing. That must be remembered.

Chicounsel wrote: Why would the One be seeking GOP votes

Why indeed? Given the bad faith so prevalent in the Republican Party -- as you prove every time you post -- it's obviously to give the GOP a nice high-profile opportunity to go on recordrejecting both the stimulus plan and Obama's bipartisan gesture. And they did just what he wanted.

Proving that most GOP Congresscritters aren't just as dishonest as you, they're as dumb, too.

I have never much cared for Politico, but lately it seems positively dreadful and completely anti-Obama, almost embarrassingly so. Are they really angling to replace Drudge, and maybe Rober Cohen could join them.

Sorry, Chicounsel, but the "it's all Freddie and Fannie's fault" talking point is soooo 2008. "As far as I can tell" tells ME that you need to check in with RedState to get the new talking points.

Why are you wasting your time here anyway? Get on over to RedState where they don't think people who quote Rush are childish, and you all can scheme all you want about how you're going to toss anyone who isn't hardcore enough out of the Republican Party. Please.

There seems to be two people in DC who pursue 'bipartisan compromise', Obama and Reid. Hopefully the day is soon approaching when the President realizes he's just wasting his time and buying into bad legislation by humoring the GOP. As for Reid, I don't think he'll ever learn.

Chicounsel - 1) Fannie and Freddie were by no means the origin of subprime loans or derivitives. In fact they were rather late to the game.
2) Fannie and Freddie are by no means the property of the Dem party.
3) The toxic loans were the result of large sums of capital seeking investment in '02-'04, combined with little regulation and less enforcement.
4) Toxic loans aren't the only problem. Others include gas prices (war, weak dollar, unregulated speculation), change in bankruptcy laws that allowed credit card companies to "risklessly" raise credit limits, rising debt, corporate consolidations enabled by bailouts, tax policies that discouraged investment in actual production while exaggerating the balance of wealth, and the combination of encouraging exporting jobs while encouraging immigration without documentation.

A few months back, I opened up a mental file folder labeled: "Barack Obama is Smarter Than I Am." I keep stuffing things into it. This is one of them.

Chicocounsel:
As a finance professional, I am afraid that your statement As far as I can tell, the "mess" was created by the bundling up and subsequent slicing and dicing of the toxic mortgages that were placed into the market by Freddie and Fanny is rather far off (this has nothing to do with politics, it is a simple statement of fact).

The American GSE mortgage guarantors were not in the sub-prime business, which for better or worse, was an effectively private business. The search for return from 2004 forward in particular drove a lot capital into seeking AAA notes with high yield. The abuse of otherwise perfectly useful and valid innovations (going back 20 years) in securitisation and related financial engineering was effectively a private affaire.

Chicounsel,

"As far as I can tell, the 'mess' was created by the bundling up and subsequent slicing and dicing of the toxic mortgages that were placed into the market by Freddie and Fanny who were approving mortgages to persons who should not have gotten a mortgage..."

Sorry, but Fannie & Freddie do not write mortgages. You obviously do not comprehend how the secondary mortgage market functions.

"And who was it that shielded Franny and Freddie from closer scrutimity from government regulators before the 'mess' exploded? Ehy it was none other than Barney Frank in the House and Chris Dodd in the Senate, in exchange for campaign contributions and sweetheart deals from them."

Since Freddie & Fannie don't write mortgages, Frank, Dodd, or anyone else could NOT have "shielded" them "from government regulators".

It was the PRIVATE SECTOR predatory lenders, who were UNREGULATED (thanks to their political contributions to Republicans), that were writing mortgages to people who could not repay them.

As to who was pressuring regulators in regards to lax mortgages:

UNDER PRESSURE FROM BANKS, BUSH EASED LENDING RULES

(AP) - The Bush administration backed off proposed crackdowns on no-money-down and interest-only mortgages years before the economy collapsed, buckling to pressure from some of the same banks that have now failed. It ignored remarkably prescient warnings that foretold the financial meltdown, according to an Associated Press review of regulatory documents.

Bowing to aggressive lobbying - along with assurances from banks that the troubled mortgages were OK - REGULATORS DELAYED ACTION FOR NEARLY ONE YEAR. By the time new rules were released late in 2006, the toughest of the proposed provisions were gone and the meltdown was under way.

The administration's blind eye to the impending crisis is emblematic of a philosophy that trusted market forces and discounted the need for government intervention in the economy. Its belief ironically has ushered in the most massive government intervention since the 1930s.

Many of the banks that fought to undermine the proposals by some regulators are now either out of business or accepting billions in federal aid to recover from a mortgage crisis they insisted would never come.

Here's how I suspect this will end . . .

Obama uses his large network of supporters to have them all send emails to the Republican obstructionists. Their email servers get blown out of the water, and enough Republican Senators finally cave (to defeat the filibuster of the bill).

Chicounsel: And what exactly was the Republican policy that you believe "created this mess"?

Bush seeks to increase minority home ownership - USA Today 1/20/2004

"I've called on private sector mortgage banks and banks to be more aggressive about lending money to first-time home buyers." - President Bush 3/26/04

"Under his leadership, the overall U.S. homeownership rate in the second quarter of 2004 was at an all time high of 69.2 percent." - White House web site 8/9/04

White House Philosophy Stoked Mortgage Bonfire - NYT 12/20/08

Bush Admin. diluted loan rules before crash - AP 12/1/08

"Expect fallout, expect foreclosures, expect horror stories." - California mortgage lender Paris Welch wrote to U.S. regulators - January-2006

gop was in total control of the house...senate and white house.... in jan. 2006

and as it has in the past...

the control didn't last long..

but the effects will...

Chicounsel: So, like every other mess that has to be cleaned up, the cause is always the same, Democrats using government to achieve some goal that they can't get from the free market.

Freddie Secretly Hired Lobby Firm to Kill Regulation Bill in 2005 - AP 10/20/08

freddie's top lobbyist?

rick davis = mccain's campaign manager...

How Freddie Mac halted regulatory drive - AP 12/7/08

when GOP was in control of Congress....

Internal Freddie Mac budget records show $11.7 million was paid to 52 outside lobbyists and consultants in 2006.

former House Speaker Newt Gingrich got a 6-figure contract

former GOP Sen. Alfonse D'Amato at Park Strategies, $240,000

former GOP Rep. Vin Weber at Clark & Weinstock, $360,297

former GOP Rep. Susan Molinari at Washington Group, $300,062

In 2005, Freddie Mac hired GOP pollster Frank Luntz.

Chicounsel: So, like every other mess that has to be cleaned up, the cause is always the same, Democrats using government to achieve some goal that they can't get from the free market.

but wait..

there's more!

Experts Fault Bush’s Mortgage Strategy - Roll Call 10/23/08

Bush Pushed Bailout Loophole On Executive Pay - Wash. Post 12/15/08

Economy Made Few Gains in Bush Years - Wash. Post 1/12/09

2008 foreclosure filings set record - USA Today 1/15/09

"I don't think we're headed to recession." - President Bush 2/28/08

"We're not in a recession." - President Bush 4/22/08

It's official: Recession since Dec. '07 - CNN 12/1/08

"I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organizations...were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity." - Alan Greenspan 10/24/08

so greed doesn't regulate itself?

you don't say..

heckofajob...

Chicounsel: Any Congressional RINO who votes for this, or any other form of a stimulus package should be thrown out by primary voters in 2010.

yes so that the gop candidate can bask in the glow..

GOP 06: lost 30+ seats

GOP 08: lost 20+ seats

Democrats' 2008 Advantage in Party ID Largest Since '83 - Gallup 1/24/09

heckofaplan...

"...whether he would promise that the stimulus would not be an excuse to raise taxes or increase spending...." WTF??

These guys really don't have a clue and are only out to protect the holdings of the very wealthy. Thank God they are not in the majority. They think slapping Obama's hand is funny when in fact they are also slapping the outstretched hands of millions of unemployed citizens who don't get enough to pay income taxes though they pay payroll, property and sales taxes. Tax cuts only benefit the wealthy and rob the government of badly needed funds to rebuild infrastructure etc.

Obama is proving that the input from the very people who caused our present economic disaster would only make this disaster worse. Republicans have no place in government as everything they have done turns into failure...disastrous failure.

Posted by: Chicounsel on January 27, 2009 at 2:44 PM |

Nothing the dems do could possibly match the disasters the republicans brought to us. Of course it will be hard for the dems (once again) to clean up the mess left by republicans.

Not only did Americans give Obama and the dems an overwhelming mandate for change but they also overwhelmingly told the republicans to go fuck themselves and their tax cuts mentality. We are tired of the wealthy profiteering us into poverty.

Things are going well.

Probably already said, but the long term narrative President Obama is building with very public, very civilized, very MATURE interactions such as these is going to, in the end, marginalize the juvenile antics of Reagan/Bush statism for good. Re: hear the misbehaving (Republican) children out (i.e., let them know they have a voice that's heard), and then proceed to exercise your rightful adult authority. Conservatism, then, assumes its rightful role as diligent detector of unintended effects, and progressive liberalism assumes its rightful role as the defining ethos of a functionally moral, just, ethical, and effective society.

I want to thank all of you for the smack-down of chisounsel drivel... and with actual links and facts to prove the point. Something he/she hasn't done.

I wonder if the poor schmuck thinks McCain is still offering points to sit on his lap on the "Straight talk Express"?

Dude, you Repubs are getting pwned.

Obama is a brave man and i think he knows what he's doing. To my own point of view i think that what he meant by tax cut mentality was not to change the people from their wealthy proffiteering to poverty. And is insean to say that George Bush is sequestering himself in a room with 20-30 Democrat-on capitol hill-to hear a critique of his proposals.

I have to feel sorry for chicocounsel. S/he believes the it's-all-fannie-and-freddie's-fault meme because of Rush Limbaugh. The thing that Limbaugh's listeners do not get is that Limbaugh is an entertainer selling a point of view and doesn't have any factcheckers on his staff. It's really quite stupid to rely on him for your "news." Limbaugh provides a narrative that is very loosely based on reality, mostly he is someone with a story to tell who fits little bits of "facts" around what he already believes.

If you want fact-based information on the mortgage crisis and it's fallout you have to go to experts-- you know, people with an actual background in finance or economics who don't just have a political axe to grind.