Obama supports rendition AND supports Bush’s “aggressive� idea of state secrets.

Hilzoy, don’t write any more columns about Obama executive orders without taking stock of loopholes (or background stories like this) that show you’re blowing smoke.

From the linked to article regarding the AMT patch: "...it seems like the obvious fix here is ditching the AMT measure, which costs just under $70 billion, and adding back in the state aid and school construction money (about $56 billion)..."

Would Spector, Collins, Snowe and Nelson go for this? Sadly, it matters.

For the record, the AMT (a perfectly legitimate floor) does need to be indexed to inflation one day, so we can put this nonsense behind us once and for all.

Please have everyone you know read the piece on Marijuana reform! There is no reason it should not be legalized and taxed. We just have to get everyone who is stuck on the "Drugs are bad" defense to get over it.

SocraticGadfly - The Obama admininistration said it would not engage in extradition where there was a likelihood of torture. They did not say they would share CIA secrets with everyone who claimed they had been illegally transported. Furthermore, it is absurd to claim that using the "state secrets" argument in this case is an endorsement of the widespread use from the Bush era.

Prup, pass the dutchie on the Gadfly side.

Ann Coulter ought to be under investigation for impersonating a human being.

On the Obama state secret story, how do we know the filing today isn't the work of some deeply burrowed members of the Federalist Society?

Steve, you should link to the fantastic discussion between Bill Moyers, Greenwald, and Jay Rosen from last weeks show.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02062009/watch.html

anyone that hasn't seen or heard it it's very good.

As most know, Obama will address the nation with a Prime Time News Conference tonight at 8:00pm Eastern Time on ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN.

Looks like Republicans had some inside information on their voter fraud scandal.

CJ you are right about the AMT thing. It needs to be indexed. Absent the yearly patch lots and lots of people, including a whole lot of people who live in California, Florida and New York would be screaming bloody murder. Be careful what you wish for. The AMT was passed in the days when an annual family income of $100,000 was considered rich. Now days $250,000 is considered the beginning of rich. The folks who are going to be spared the AMT this year are the same people who we hope are going to be buying new cars and otherwise spending money.

It is my understanding that the senate just passed a cloture vote--cutting off debate- 61-36 with Kennedy casting a vote. The MSNBC article said that they will need 60 votes tomorrow to actually pass the bill. Is this right and if so why does this bill need a supermajority now that cloture has been invoked? NPR said the same thing a few days ago and I just assumed they meant to get cloture. By the way do they always need 60 votes for cloture or is 60% good enough?

In addition to taking policy advice from "Joe the Plumber," Republicans are now taking communications advice from Michelle Malkin.

I hear Bugs Bunny signed on for catering their weekend retreats.

"You're talking about a gap on the order of twelve-hundred-fifty billion dollars, and we're trying to plug that with four-hundred-something, so we've got a long way to go," Baker says. (The stimulus package of roughly $800 billion doles out spending and tax cuts over two years.)

I guess that you have to create a gap of $1.2 trillion to plug a gap of $1.2 trillion.

Also,

They're basically just guessing.

That's all of them, proponents and opponents of the stimulus. It's a new situation, as they all admit, and there's no relevant evidence that any government plan will be beneficial. I do support more support for alternative energy, but that's a short-term cost with a potential long-term benefit; it is not a short-term benefit

Think of it as Pascal's wager.

Pascal didn't tell you which god to back with your wager; and he didn't explain how to borrow the wherewithall to place your bet -- you couldn't borrow someone else's soul and bet it.

Interesting. I guess Owen West has matured a bit since college.

The MSNBC article said that they will need 60 votes tomorrow to actually pass the bill. - terry

War Room says only 50 votes are needed tomorrow.

Hasn't Anne Coulter been under investigation for voting irregularities for like four years now? Something about voting for Bush in the wrong precinct...

Wake me when there is something new about Ann C. that isn't more tease. Same with O'Really, Hannity, et al. I'm tired of reading the same old stuff with no resolution. I'll believe it when the check clears the bank.
peace,
st john

Waiting for action?...before forming an opinion? Now we get "The Two Obamas". The DoJ just advanced Bush's "State Secrets" defense to cover up torture and rendition in our Judicial system. Something Obama vowed he would not do. The ACLU has the Attorney's action speaking for Obama and Eric Holder to continue the Bush policy.

Is that why Specter dropped his hold on Holder's appointment? Also why he is supporting the "stimulus bill"?

Which Obama will show up tomorrow? Hopefully the courts will overrule Bush's states secrets defense which Obama is complicit in continuing. The entire world knows the "states secrets" in these five court cases as they've been published and investigated by all involved so it is no defense that CIA secrets will be revealed...they already have been.

Just like with his FISA vote Obama has said one thing and done another. Time to keep our eyes wide open when it comes to accountability for executive privilege in relation to rendition, torture and wire tapping. (Guess we can forget all about prosecuting Bush or Cheney) Check out the story at Glenn Greenwald's site at Salon.com. I'm too disappointed to even describe it correctly. There is no justice when it comes to our elected leaders...they are above the law.

Just 50 votes are needed after cloture passes for final vote

Legalize it!

The stimulus jobs package could be paid for by putting a sales tax on wall street transactions like derivatives and each time shares trade hands. Even a low tax would net trillions for government expenditures.

Why bail out the toxic banks when Obama could start 7-8 banks with this $350 billion tarp money...lend out to the credit market like crazy and get a trillion back and when the economy was in better shape, sell the banks to the private sector. Stop throwing money away on these failed banks...pay off the account holders but investors gambled and lost. That's the chance they took.

Obama should declare a national disaster to fix the economy instead of letting the republicans try to make his plans fail for political reasons.
That should net him some political capital from the entire nation but especially from the states getting ready to hit rock bottom on jobs food energy and housing from lack of federal funds.

Uh, dream on about legalizing Mary Jane. Hope you're just kidding. Hey, I'm all for it--but look at what just happened to Phelps after one oops.

I heard from fairly credible grapevine that Ann Coulter dodged the voting irregularity bullet last time because some guy on the Board that was supposed to investigate and possible charge her (FL, right?), was an admirer or even dated her and lifted it off. Now maybe she can't sleaze her way out. Just desserts, too bad they let Limbaugh slip through (again, in FL right? Interesting ...)

Despite some reports to the contrary, it appears Sen. Richard Lugar (R-Ind.) had a good reason for turning down Obama's Air Force One invitation.

Even if Lugar didn't vote for the stimulus, the fact he's participating in a conference about saving the world's forests from global warming is a very good thing all by its own self.

In the past 50 years, we have lost half the world's forests, due to human action. It's like cutting out one of your lungs and then planning on living as you always have. This is the most widespread and rapid deforestation in the history of the planet. Today, twice as much carbon dioxide was released into the planet'satmosphere as a result of human-driven deforestation than was emitted by all the cars, trucks and airplanes used around the world.

Not only that, but as the human-inspired global warming continues, natural pests migrate and cause even more damage. 25 years ago, the pine bark beetle was found only in the pine forests of northern Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia. It began migrating northward, causing a wave of deforestation up the Atlantic seaboard as it migrated, and today it is found in the great boreal forest of northern Ontario Province. And up there, it has no natural predator. The Canadians expect to lose 15% of the last great boreal forest in the northern hemisphere in the next ten years as a result of this.

So, hurrah for Senator Lugar, the only Republican I have heard of who seems to be interested in this crucial topic.

Ann Coulter is under investigation for voting irregularities.

Who would've thought she worked for ACORN.

In the past 50 years, we have lost half the world's forests, due to human action.

Recent research shows a high rate of regrowth, even in regions such as the Amazon basin where it was once thought that the scorched earth would not permit regrowth. It's a trend that you would want to encourage, not take for granted.

As a couple of posters upthread noted, the AMT -- Alternative Minimum Tax -- really does need to be indexed. It was originally enacted around the late 1960s when it was discovered that a handful of rich Americans paid no taxes. (Such innocent days!). When first enacted, it targeted just a handful of people ... literally, something like 20 or 30 taxpayers nationwide. But it was not indexed to inflation, and today without the annual "patch" it would hit millions and millions of taxpayers, many of them very, very hard. The outrage is that it has never been properly adjusted and indexed, so every year we have this drama with the "patch."

The New Republic is just full of it when they suggest the AMT ought to be allowed to kick in, full bore, without the patch. As a poster upthread said, it would slam the very middle class consumers we NEED right now to get out of this slump. It would also probably inspire a tax rebellion that would result in the AMT's complete elimination. It does not need to be retired, merely reformed!

-- Roger

Recent research shows a high rate of regrowth

This is the environmental equivalent of saying "but look at all the schools we've painted in Iraq!"

Forest loss and desertification is perhaps the most crucial non-climate issue facing the planet. Regrowth (in those few places where it is happening) is localized, spotty, and inferior in terms of biodiversity.

Meanwhile, the logging continues and entire swaths of North American forest are disappearing to bark beetle and fungi.

On the News Hour tonight, a report on the Australian brush fires in describing how people were taken by surprise stated that in one reported case a fire moved across two miles of brush in 5 minutes. That is incredible and terrifying.

Danp, WRONG.

The Jeppesen case covers extraordinary rendition. And, DOJ lawyer Doug Letter said BushCo positions had been fully vetted and when Carter-appointee Circuit Judge Mary M. Schroeder asked him, “The change in administration has no bearing?� he said NO.

Plus, as Bjobotts notes, this is far from the first Obama sellout on civil liberties issues. In this very case, he not only accepted extraordinary rendition (yes, to Hilzoy, too, he did), he accepted Bush's, or even more, Cheney's Bizarro-world expanded view of "state secrets."

Here's the Greenwald article Bjobotts was referencing:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/09/state_secrets/

Let me quote you one sentence from Glenn to you Obamiacs:

It will be extremely difficult for even the most loyal Obama followers to deny that this was an active and conscious decision on the part of the Obama DOJ to embrace one of the most extreme abuses of the Bush presidency.

===

Shortstop, you've probably already smoked too many doobies in your life; that would explain plenty.

===

Bjobotts, interesting idea on TARP 2.0. Since Geithner and his non-vetted puppetmaster Summers want to do everything they can to avoid the "Swedish model," or otherwise kneecap their Street buddies, it will never fly.

===

I suppose you Obamiacs will keep drinking the Kool-Aid on things like the civil liberties sellouts, etc.

Marajuana as an economic stimuli, WOW, what a thunderbolt of an idea !!!

Lots and lots of Americans smoke it. They spend lots and lots of $$$ to do so, all untaxed. The public spends huge amounts of $$$ arresting, prosecuting and imprisoning people who smoke, grow and/or sell the stuff.

Apparently the argument is that we can bring under government control one of, if not, the biggest BLACK MARKET out there and capture some fabulous amount of revenue from taxing it. Also, it's contended that government entities such as towns, cities, counties, states and even the federal government itself will save a buttload of $$$ by NOT having to arrest, try, imprison and monitor all those people who have or will run afoul of the current statutes.

What the heck, maybe they're on to something.

I hadn't given any thought to the AMT, but with regard to it and this stimulus bill...it seems like a thing which needs to be fixed and right now is as good as any. Things which have needed to be fixed for a long time should be fixed sooner rather than later -- same for Soc. Sec. and health care reform.

It's hard to know precisely how stimulative each element of the plan is going to be. That's one reason to spread it around in both tax cuts (or tax holidays) and spending and gifts to state & local governments. This helps ensure it gets out to all parts of the economy and in the hands of all sectors.

Focusing it on the banks didn't help when they decided not to loan it out. The stimulus bill's bottom up approach might work better.

how about this
you let folks do what they will
forget about taxing everything
we all get reasonable healthcare
education housing
all the money saved
from stopping the endless
and needless wars
belongs to all the people
it's ours to share
have your say
or accept the
scraps thrown
your way

I'm not too upset about the 'Publicans picking up on Michelle Malkin's soundbites - for one thing, it's pretty catchy; it should have been applied to Bush's flaming wreck of a Social-Security initiative, but it could have fit every Emergency Supplemental cash-grab for the Iraq war, too.

For another, come on - it's Michelle Malkin. If it ever looked like she was actually steering 'Publican policy in a big way, it'd be too easy to throw together split-screen video of her previous rantings that would expose her as the barking-mad zoo exhibit she is.

For another, look at all the linkages we applied to McCain during the campaign - McPow, McSame, and so on. How we laughed at his wattled turkey neck and his agonized squirmings when he stepped on his dick in a speech or an interview. I meant every bit of it at least as much as Malkin means her vitriol, and I bet you did, too. Here, gander - have some sauce.

Socratic Gadfly - 1) I think you need to look up the term "extraordinary rendition". The key to your argument should be the torture not the application of extradition treaties. 2) Obama's policy is not and was never presented as a willingness to declassify CIA secrets to anyone who wants them. 3) Your selective interpretation and use of quotes is as cynical and disingenuous as any Republican's.

That's all of them, proponents and opponents of the stimulus. It's a new situation, as they all admit, and there's no relevant evidence that any government plan will be beneficial.

Bullshit, Marler, you stinking liar. We have very good evidence that Keynesian economics works, and evidence -- I'm sure you've seen the chart posted by Steve, though you're too dishonest ot acknowledge it -- that direct spending to assistance for the poor has a higher multiplier effect than your sweet, sweet tax cuts, which just barely break even in terms of efficience.

You are a liar in support of a failed Party that has done untold damage to this country -- but promises you sweet, sweet tax cuts. You can't defend the failures of your party with good faith debate, so you jump right on the bad faith bandwagon. No one here mistakes you for an honest commentator, Marler, and no one is confused by your bullshit. You aren't even dissembling cleverly, Marler, you just make yourself look stupid, ignorant and dishonest. Why do you bother?

Shame on you, Marler.

Socratic Gadfly: I suppose you Obamiacs will keep drinking the Kool-Aid

Your ability to communicate appears to be limited to repeating the same three or four sentences in increasingly screechy tones.

Has it ever occurred to you, Fly, that many of us frequently agree with you in principle but nevertheless find your reflexively bitchy, self-obsessed diatribes unworthy of serious attention?

Of course every asshole wants to think he's a gadfly bringing sight to the blind. But you know, sometimes an asshole is just an asshole.