Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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April 16, 2009

PERRY KEEPS PUSHING THE SECESSION LINE.... When dealing with confused and enraged mob, responsible leaders try to lower the temperature and encourage cooler heads to prevail. Irresponsible leaders act like Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R).

On Tuesday, Perry denounced the U.S. government as "oppressive," arguing at a press conference, "We think it's time to draw the line in the sand and tell Washington that no longer are we going to accept their oppressive hand in the state of Texas." He didn't say what it is he finds so offensive, but it seems to have something to do with the federal effort to help unemployed Texans. (Obama is obviously history's greatest monster.)

At a right-wing "Tea Party" yesterday, Perry pushed the envelope just a little more.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"

An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall -- one of three tea parties he was attending across the state -- that officials in Washington have abandoned the country's founding principles of limited government.... Perry called his supporters patriots. Later, answering news reporters' questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.

"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."

In other words, according to the elected chief executive of one of the nation's largest states, secession is on the table.

Republican primaries can make conservatives do some awfully strange things.

As for the "substance" of all of this, it seems a little silly to seriously explore the merits of secession in the 21st century, but Michael Tomasky suggests Americans should just let Texas go if it wants out of the United States, and Matt Yglesias seems to be warming to the idea.

Steve Benen 8:30 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (101)

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Comments

Give it back to Mexico (but let's hang on to Austin, for the music scene).

Posted by: Chris K on April 16, 2009 at 8:31 AM | PERMALINK

Well, after Dallas and Bush I vote for expulsion.

Posted by: SW on April 16, 2009 at 8:34 AM | PERMALINK

Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out. Really, just go. What friggin' good has Texas done for the U.S? It's given us LBJ and the Vietnam War, the assassination of Kennedy, and Dubya. Who needs it?

Posted by: RLinMass on April 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM | PERMALINK

"Ya spell, ya read, D.O.O.R."
-Deborah Harry, "Don't Go Away Mad (Just Go Away)"

Maybe we can get Alabama, Mississippi, and Oklahoma to leave, too.

Posted by: low-tech cyclist on April 16, 2009 at 8:37 AM | PERMALINK

I'm not a fan of people who throw around the label "Un-American" to anyone who disagrees with their point of view.

But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if you want to actually secede from the union? That's Un-American. I know! What a crazy leftist worldview I have, right?

Posted by: Hoosier Paul on April 16, 2009 at 8:37 AM | PERMALINK

An independent Texas would make Israel look like the land of Kumbayah.

Posted by: Danp on April 16, 2009 at 8:38 AM | PERMALINK

I get sick of hearing bloggers whom I like say they'd be happy to see the South, or some part of it, secede. Obama won fucking North Carolina, people. The right messaging on this point is that Rick Perry is out of touch with his own state, not that we should write off all the voters in that state.

Posted by: The Fabulous Mr. Toad on April 16, 2009 at 8:38 AM | PERMALINK

Yeah, it'd be a shame about Austin, but, well, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

I say, back to the Alamo, haul down the Stars and Stripes, and usher the Mexican consul in the front door. "Nos sentimos, senor. It's all yours now."

And the Bushes, and the Hutchisons, and the Gramms, and the Perrys, and the Roves, and the gun-toting crazies, and the vast empty malls and developments with it.

Posted by: bleh on April 16, 2009 at 8:38 AM | PERMALINK

Why do conservatives hate America?

Posted by: Steve LaBonne on April 16, 2009 at 8:38 AM | PERMALINK

Wow! I bet the MSM will be all over this. This is so un-American! Shouldn't there be some kind of congressional resolution denouncing Rick Perry? Where is Coulter? Isn't this treason?

Oh, sorry, I forgot.

BTW, we want our $17 billion back.

Posted by: diav on April 16, 2009 at 8:43 AM | PERMALINK

Also, in response to comments made here, and by Misters Tomasky and Yglesias, I think it's fair to point out that "Texas" does not want to secede from the union. "A Small Group of Right-Wing Nut Jobs Who Happen to Live in Texas" wants to secede. And I have no doubt you could find similar nut jobs in every state.

Posted by: Hoosier Paul on April 16, 2009 at 8:43 AM | PERMALINK

Let Texas secede. Then they can pay to enforce border security. There are enough guns there that they might succeed in an invasion of Mexico. Then they can proceed south. It would siphon R-W crazies from all over the country.

Of course, they'd have to pay for this through drug sales, which would finally lead to legalization. Heck, without those Republicans the US could pass a slew of sensible legislation. At least the border checks would be conducted in English.

Posted by: Erasmus on April 16, 2009 at 8:47 AM | PERMALINK

Huh. We have something like Texas in my country -- we call it 'Quebec'. I seem to recall some rightwingers saying if anyone tried the same separatist bullshit in the US, they should be charged with treason & strung up. So when does Perry's trial & subsequent lynching begin?

Posted by: raff on April 16, 2009 at 8:48 AM | PERMALINK

I'll be damned if I'm going to stand for the only red state that actually pays its own way seceding and dumping all its gvmt teat suckling brethren on us blue states to care for alone.

TX can go, but they have to take the rest of the red states with them; they'll be crawling back to the US after one budget cycle.

Posted by: Disputo on April 16, 2009 at 8:53 AM | PERMALINK

The game isn't going their way these days, so they want to take their ball and go home.

Posted by: Mudge on April 16, 2009 at 8:54 AM | PERMALINK

Sorry, Mr. Toad, but I'm betting you don't get half as tired of us as we get tired of the Perrys, the Jindals, the Sanfords, and most of all the Bushes of the South being treated like rational beings with somethng useful to say. And while I understand your point about N. Carolina, you haven't got a lot of proof that Perry is out of touch with his constituents. From Oklahoma's two Senators, to Haley Barbour, Mitch McConnell, and even the out-of-step-with-the-rest-of-America results the south provided in the recent poll of trust in Obama/Congress/Dems/Repubs, it sure looks like you are engaging in wishful thinking not supported by the facts. no, the reality is that The South really is quite different and at least at present quite isolated. in nearly every respect - culture, politics, religion, education, net-giver versus net-taker with respect to government - The South already is a separate country.

Now, I don't think we should split up, or abandon The South forever politically. but if Perry wants to keep it up, I think watching a single state experiment in secession would be a great object lesson that would ensure no one else tries it anytime soon. and i think there are limits to how much we can do as Progressives to engage The South. Continuing to organize and find the hidden gems in hopes of more N Carolina results is great, but compromising or letting The South's Blue Dogs slow us from doing what is necessary for the rest of the country? Not worth it. If it irritates southerners, tough. If that makes them lash out with stupid talk like Perry and as a result the North gives up on them? well, its a little hard to blame us for that. Tell your neighbors to stop electing people who make the entire region look stupid. We have real problems here, we cant wait for the region to catch up to the 21st century before we solve them.

Posted by: zeitgeist on April 16, 2009 at 8:59 AM | PERMALINK

Texas, you can go.....but only if you take Alabama, Tennessee, West Virginia, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Arkansas, and Oklahoma with you!

Posted by: oh well on April 16, 2009 at 9:11 AM | PERMALINK

What zeitgeist said for the most part (I think he significantly underestimates Texas's heterogeneity -- I said Texas's, not the other states he mentions).

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 9:12 AM | PERMALINK

No - let's not let them frame the debate *again*!

Just tell the truth - point out how much Texas *gets* for their taxes. How much does the state send in to the feds each year? How much does the federal government spend? That should be enough!

The talk of secession, or saying, 'fine, go!' makes for great drama, but is not productive in terms of policy debate - which this is!

Push back against the talking points - don't encourage them!

Posted by: Jo on April 16, 2009 at 9:12 AM | PERMALINK

Attendance at Texas Tea Parties: 32,000
Texas Population: 23.9 million

The people of Texas have spoken!

(Tea party attendance taken from Nate Silver's site, www.fivethirtyeight.com)

Posted by: Hoosier Paul on April 16, 2009 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

No, No, No.

Posted by: chris y on April 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM | PERMALINK

I vote for letting them go, but they have to make room for their like-thinking brethren from the rest of the country. They all need a home where they can be free to be willfully stupid, racist, and detest all things unfamiliar.

Posted by: Del Capslock on April 16, 2009 at 9:22 AM | PERMALINK

Yeah, Texas will never be considered to be the land of Kumbay'all, or is that Kumbaya'll in parts of Louisiana?

However, could Perry take the Cowboys and Jerry Jones with him?

But, secession is often used by the No-Tax crowd. For two examples, drive into the forested areas outside of Seattle, WA proper. You will see secession signs by those wanting to secede from King County and, further to the north, those wishing to secede from Snohomish Counties. Never have understood how these No-Tax folks will pay for road repairs and police/fire protection and the like, but the will be ever so "free".

Posted by: berttheclock on April 16, 2009 at 9:25 AM | PERMALINK

shortstop, i agree Texas is a pretty diverse place (Austin and College Station seem quite likely to be on opposite sides of any civil war) and I am old enough to remember that they did give us my beloved Ann Richards. but (a) they are the only state with a Gov spouting secessonist rhetoric, so I have to play the card I'm dealt, and (b) internal diversity notwithstanding, it has not been enough to prevent them "gifting" the rest of us a couple of Bushes and their Bushies (unforgivable, really, for several generations), from doing a mid-decade redistricting that screwed up Congress for a bit, or from electing the current nutjob of a Gov. so nope, no pass for Tex. now that SXSW is over. wouldn't want to cut them loose before that. :)

Posted by: zeitgeist on April 16, 2009 at 9:28 AM | PERMALINK

Perry is living in a fantasy. So are the you lot with the "let them go" rhetoric. It is not going to happen. Good old Abe Lincoln made sure of that. Thanks to Lincoln's desire to "preserve the union" the US Constitution got transformed from an effort to craft a more perfect union to a suicide pact. Lincoln's war to conquer the Confederacy has the states trapped then, now, and forever.

So now you Yankees are stuck with us crazy as shit Southerners.

Hee, hee, hee...

Posted by: gman on April 16, 2009 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

Oh please oh please don't throw us into the briar patch, Texas.

I mean, oh please oh please don't secede.

And don't take Oklahoma with you.

Man, if you leave, Texas, you'll raise the average IQ of the rest of the nation. Not to mention giving the Democrats a near permanent national majority, forcing the Republicans in the rest of the states to return closer to sanity if they want to win anything. You don't want that, do you?

And if you leave, you'll take all your oil refineries with you. The rest of the US will be forced to wean itself from oil dependence. You don't want that do you?

Of course, if you do leave you'll probably want to join OPEC.

Posted by: Cool on April 16, 2009 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

It pains me to have to offer even a weaselly defense of Governor Rick "Goodhair" Perry, but folks should understand that the "Texas retains the right to secede" myth runs strong here, however wrong and silly it may be. It plays into the rugged, individualistic, go-your-own-way self-image that we cultivate for ourselves down here. It's purely political theater, and on one, save possibly Chuck Norris, actually buys into it.

But it's fun to say every now and then, even for a librul like me.

Posted by: Andy on April 16, 2009 at 9:36 AM | PERMALINK

A Small Group of Right-Wing Nut Jobs Who Happen to Live in Texas" wants to secede. And I have no doubt you could find similar nut jobs in every state.

The difference is that in red states, that small group of nut jobs includes the Governor, most of the representatives, and usually the Senators too.

Let us understand and admit that the core Republican party loves them people like Perry and Sam-the-Skinhead a.k.a. Joe-the-Plumber. Core republicans are whackjobs. Yes, every one.

Posted by: Cool on April 16, 2009 at 9:38 AM | PERMALINK

Speaking of Texans being on the opposite side of a civil war, wasn't Sam Houston opposed to Texas fighting the North?

Posted by: berttheclock on April 16, 2009 at 9:39 AM | PERMALINK

I lived in Texas for 4 years, and I'd be happy to see them secede. The problem is, they'd devolve into a failed state in less than a decade (the primary reason Texas is part of the U.S. today is because they were unable to survive as an independent nation --- they already tried it once), and I don't think it's in the interests of U.S. security to have a failed state on our southern border.

Posted by: David Bailey on April 16, 2009 at 9:41 AM | PERMALINK

To be completely fair, after the 2004 election many blue state residents also wished that our states could secede...or at least switch our allegiance to Canada.

But I would be more than happy to let Texas regain to its Independent Republic status. Good riddance! The lone star state is too big and too bizarre for a democratic nation; They are sort of the AIG of states. At least, I think we should reopen the conversation, Lincoln or not. Let Texans vote and let the rest of us vote. If all of us agree, goodbye Texas!

And maybe if their inflammatory rhetoric had real consequences, maybe conservatives wouldn't be so gung-ho to be such unpatriotic douche-bags.

Posted by: PTate in MN on April 16, 2009 at 9:42 AM | PERMALINK

Republican primaries can make conservatives do some awfully strange things.
-----------------------------------

Such as like what, ferninstance? I'd like to see some. This isn't strange -- for them, it's pretty much flat f*n normal. If the pubies are in power, everything the gubmint does is right, and if they're not, the same stuff is wrong. What is strange about that?

Thus I refute wossname. AND yer littledog "Primaries" too.

Posted by: Please correct the error on April 16, 2009 at 9:45 AM | PERMALINK

maybe if their inflammatory rhetoric had real consequences, maybe conservatives wouldn't be so gung-ho to be such unpatriotic douche-bags. Posted by: PTate in MN

Thanks for nailing in two lines what I've been trying to express in my last two posts.

Posted by: zeitgeist on April 16, 2009 at 9:46 AM | PERMALINK

BerththeClock asked:

> Speaking of Texans being on the opposite side of a civil war,
> wasn't Sam Houston opposed to Texas fighting the North?

Yes. He was governor at the time, and was forced out over the issue. He argued that if Texas really couldn't remain in the Union, it would be better of returning to being an independent republic, as it had been 15 years previously. Better on our own, he argued, than throwing in our lot with the Confederacy.

But again, no one (including Governor Perry) actually believes the secession silliness. It's purely for local consumption, a sort of red meat flavored cotton candy -- now real (or intended) substance. Don't make more of this than is really there, y'all.

Posted by: Andy on April 16, 2009 at 9:47 AM | PERMALINK

Well, I was addressing your point that the South is isolated politically, culturally, religiously, etc., zeit. Of all the states mentioned, that's least true in Texas, which has far more diversity than LA, MS, AL, GA, SC, so much so that I don't think really useful cultural comparisons can be made there. Nor do I think -- despite the propensity of many Texans for making swaggering, self-congratulatory gestures of supposed iconoclasm -- that Perry has a chance of convincing Texas that secession is the way to go, whereas I could actually see this gambit working in, say, SC. That's rather pointless (but kind of fun) speculation on my part.

It may sound like I'm nitpicking, but all I'm really saying is that I fully agree with your assessment that it's no longer up to us to try to get the South on board with where the rest of the country is going, but disagreeing that Texas really fits into that schematic despite Perry's imagined shot at Fort Sumter. Something somewhere is going to have to give, however. I wonder what it will be.

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 9:47 AM | PERMALINK

I'm not in favor of letting Texas or any other state secede; that possibility was settled in the 1860s.

However, given Texas' tendency towards rebellion (against the Mexicans, in the US Civil War, and now this), I think we should remove from Texas any federal officer train programs. Close the ROTC program at Texas A&M, UT Austin, and all other schools.

Recruit officers from more steadfast states. CUNY was the biggest source of Army officers during the Viet Nam war and now has no ROTC program. Not sure why we need mostly southern officers for the US military, except that someone in the last 20 years thought it was a good idea.

Posted by: Wapiti on April 16, 2009 at 9:48 AM | PERMALINK

When dealing with confused and enraged mob, responsible leaders try to lower the temperature and encourage cooler heads to prevail. Irresponsible leaders act like Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R).
************************
There is little justice, mercy, peace or truth when cowards, fools, and egotists rule the day. (p)Rick Perry - Case in point.

Posted by: In what respect, Charlie? on April 16, 2009 at 9:48 AM | PERMALINK

Hasn't Rick Perry just made himself ineligible for a Senate race or any other high office? One can't say even in passing that they support secession, whether as a concept or a reality, and then take an oath to uphold the US Constitution. You are free to say you support enemies of the constitution-it is a free country- but you can't then be an official under the constitution. At the very least, it's a mental reservation, but he was pretty explicit. I think Hutchinson doesn't have to worry about a primary if someone in Texas questions Perry's non-eligibility.

Posted by: Toutatis on April 16, 2009 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

I would be fine with Texas leaving, provided before they do so they compensate the United States government for the infrastructure improvements, the defense of that territory over the past century or so and of course their payment for the lands currently owned by the United States government.

Oh - and we keep the military bases thank you very much.

Posted by: Greg Hanigan on April 16, 2009 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

But again, no one (including Governor Perry) actually believes the secession silliness. It's purely for local consumption, a sort of red meat flavored cotton candy -- now real (or intended) substance. Don't make more of this than is really there, y'all.

Yeah, we know, but Christ, it's tiresome. We're all trying to get stuff done and a small percentage of the country is acting like a bunch of 15-year-old boys with belligerent signs on their bedroom doors. It says something about the state of things when less than 150 years after a horrific civil war, the party that got soundly thrashed keeps publicly dreaming of a glorious rematch. Can we move on already?!

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 9:53 AM | PERMALINK

The whole point of the exercise is to 1) disconnect the political dialogue from reason by whipping up an emotional frenzy, and 2) paint Obama and the Dems as so extreme that an equally extreme response is needed.

This isn't about tea bagging per se, nor is it about secession. It's about creating a steady drip, drip, drip of impressions in the media that something has gone terribly wrong with Obama's election. Over time Rove and Co. hope that image sticks to the degree that, at the appropriate point, all they need to do is light the match.

Posted by: Dr Lemming on April 16, 2009 at 9:53 AM | PERMALINK

An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall...

Why do I imagine an animated Perry talking with the voice of Yogi Bear?

Posted by: chris y on April 16, 2009 at 9:56 AM | PERMALINK

Wapiti, without ROTC would TAMU have a reason for being? (I guess the Corps of Cadets could keep marching in their high leather boots in service of the Indepedent Republic of Texas. . . which for many is how they likely view it anyway. Impressive to watch, but more than a little creepy in that "but I thought 'TAPS' was just a movie!" sort of way.)

Posted by: zeitgeist on April 16, 2009 at 9:56 AM | PERMALINK

This place gets like a Fox News blog sometimes.

First, Texas has the right to secede at any time, it was one of many conditions the United States agreed to when Texas joined the Union.

Second, we are not a welfare Nation, nearly all the petrol goes through this state and all of the petrol is refined here. We have the largest port in the US, so nearly all the imported goods on this side of the Rockies comes through Texas.

We are not going to seceded, but the point here is that it is not un-American for us to do so, we have permission. We are not sucking off Uncle Sam's teet, we are a rich state. We are a state of bumbling idiots who are faster to act then think and religion does drive many decisions. But we armed to the teeth and Texas has the most men and women in the service, it would be a shame to call all those people back because some ahole thinks we should be our own nation.

Rick Perry was a good governor until he got higher aspirations, now is anti-left everything, well until we need FEMA for a hurricane or a wildfire. Just lay off of Texas, because quit frankly you need us more then we need you. Unless of course someone else on this continent is refining oil or has the countries strategic oil supplies.

Posted by: ScottW on April 16, 2009 at 10:00 AM | PERMALINK

please secede, Texas, and take MS, AL, LA, SC, GA, TN, KY and AR with you!! Both sides would be better off. The rest of us could live in a progressive nation and the south could live in...well, Lord of the Flies-land, Galton, Randistan, or whatever they wanna call it

Posted by: bruce on April 16, 2009 at 10:01 AM | PERMALINK

Shortstop wrote:

> Yeah, we know, but Christ, it's tiresome. We're all trying to get stuff
> done and a small percentage of the country is acting like a bunch of
> 15-year-old boys with belligerent signs on their bedroom doors. It says
> something about the state of things when less than 150 years after a
> horrific civil war, the party that got soundly thrashed keeps publicly
> dreaming of a glorious rematch. Can we move on already?!

I will secede -- er, *concede* -- your point.

Posted by: Andy on April 16, 2009 at 10:01 AM | PERMALINK

I would guess that Texas pays more into the government than they get back, but an interesting question for Rick Perry is what he would do about taxes if Texas did become an independent country.

Wouldn't you have to replace the federal income tax with something so that you could maintain highways, social security payments, medicare, unemployment benefits? Or maybe you could just charge rent for all the federal facilities like NASA and all the military bases? How about replacing federal research dollars to the public universities?

Yes it would be nice if Texans could secede, so they could decide for themselves how much to raise their own taxes to pay for stuff they want from government.

Twenty years ago the higher education system was supported by the massive oil royalties. But now, that has dried up. Thirty five years ago they didn't even notice the oil embargo, there were no lines for gas in Texas. Forty years ago they didn't notice dissent for the Vietnam war, there were no protesters in Texas, it was like one big military base.

But now the world has caught up to 'em, and they don't like it.

Posted by: tomj on April 16, 2009 at 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

I think we could try it without the fence for awhile. But you know what they say about good neighbors...

Posted by: SW on April 16, 2009 at 10:10 AM | PERMALINK

For the love of God, GO.

Posted by: Tigrrrl on April 16, 2009 at 10:11 AM | PERMALINK

Texas: The Enlarged Prostate of the United States.

They cannot secede soon enough. I loved Tomasky's article.

Posted by: Andrew on April 16, 2009 at 10:12 AM | PERMALINK

ScottW is right, we need Texas more than Texas needs us! They get only $0.97 back for every $1.00 they contribute to the hated Federales in taxes.

Petrol, by the way, is apparently Texan for gas. Who knew?

Posted by: Al U. Minium on April 16, 2009 at 10:13 AM | PERMALINK

Perry doesn't seem to realize that Austin, San Antonio, Houston and Dallas would not be going with him. But hey, he can still have Gun Barrel City.

Posted by: ckelly on April 16, 2009 at 10:16 AM | PERMALINK

Well, Obama wanted to emulate Lincoln; he might just get that chance. Be careful what you wish for!

Posted by: Ben on April 16, 2009 at 10:24 AM | PERMALINK

At times like this I really miss Molly Ivins

Posted by: dzman on April 16, 2009 at 10:24 AM | PERMALINK

Second, we are not a welfare Nation... -ScottW

You're not a "Nation" at all. I think you let the cat out of the bag with that slip.

In 2005, Texas got back $0.97 cents for ever federal tax dollar sent to the IRS. So while they aren't a welfare "Nation," they're hardly Illinois or California or New Jersey who received $0.78, $0.80, and $0.65 respectively.

...but the point here is that it is not un-American for us to do so... -ScottW

Condition or not, withdrawal from the United States is by definition un-American.

Just lay off of Texas, because quit frankly you need us more then we need you. Unless of course someone else on this continent is refining oil or has the countries strategic oil supplies. -ScottW

Awww...it's so cute how you think the entire rest of the country couldn't cope without Texas. It's like that guy at the office who thinks the company can't survive without him and is untouchable. Funny, he almost always gets fired, and the company survives.

You're flat out delusional.

Posted by: doubtful on April 16, 2009 at 10:25 AM | PERMALINK

No matter how much money we spend on enforcement, the sons of bitches will still sneak across the border to ski in Colorado in the winter.

Posted by: SW on April 16, 2009 at 10:27 AM | PERMALINK

Write Perry and tell him to walk the walk.

http://www.governor.state.tx.us/contact/assistance.aspx

Tell him to put up or shut up. I just did. It doesn't have to be a TX address. Fill in the blanks and tell him what a useless posturing blow hard he is.

I am a Texan. Born and raised in the Rio Grande Valley. Graduate of TAMU. There's some great stuff down there but Texas' chest thumping, bone headed arrogance isn't that great. And Perry carries on in the grand tradition.

He needs to be pushed hard on this. He needs to have his face shoved into his own crap. Letting him prattle on like this just prolongs the torture of listening to his stupidity.

If Texas wants to secede so bad then it should STFU and just do it. Or at least work as hard as it can toward that end within whatever framework of laws govern that sort of thing.

Posted by: burro on April 16, 2009 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

ScottW wrote: "... nearly all the petrol goes through this state and all of the petrol is refined here."

That will become less important in the not too distant future, as fossil fuels are phased out.

However, Texas also leads the states in wind energy, with 7,116 Megawatts of installed capacity as of the end of 2008 -- more than the next two leading states combined (Iowa and California, with less than 3,000 MW each). According to the American Wind Energy Association, Texas has a potential wind energy capacity of more than 136,000 MW -- the equivalent of some 130 typical coal or nuclear fired power plants. And of course Texas also has vast solar energy resources.

So, even as fossil fuel use declines, and we transition to an energy economy based on harvesting abundant, ubiquitous, endless, FREE wind and solar energy, Texas will become even more important to the US energy supply.

Posted by: SecularAnimist on April 16, 2009 at 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

If I'm not mistaken Perry is talking sedition and treason. Aren't those crimes punishable by death in this country?

Posted by: Ganadalf on April 16, 2009 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

Petrol, by the way, is apparently Texan for gas. Who knew?
Posted by: Al U. Minium on April 16, 2009 at 10:13 AM
--------------
Petrol is short for petroleum, which covers products produced from crude.

Seriously, the idiots commenting here must all get to work on sunshine, wind power, a hope. I have no idea what the ratio of federal funds in/out, but I can promise you w/o Texas, gas prices would collapse your economy. You idiots have no idea how large Texas is and how many companies call it home and would continue to call it home.

And I am tired of idiots acting like every single thing some idiot says here represents the entire state. Perry is an idiot, but every time there is a post about Texas I have to read the BillO mentality posts telling us to leave. It's pathetic and for someone who actually went out and helped get my President elected, it really ticks me off that I and thousand like me are so easily dismissed.

Posted by: ScottW on April 16, 2009 at 10:38 AM | PERMALINK

Let's look at the math, shall we?

Right now---thanks in no small part to people whose brains are wired along the same de-evolved pattern as Mr. Perry---it takes 60% of the Senate to override Republican obstructionism: 60, out of 100.

If Texas leaves the Union---and this probably couldn't by via unilateral secession, but a national consensus could simply kick them to the curb---the "six-tenths" rule in the Senior Chamber would look something like this:

98 x 0.6 = 58.8

and would be the final arbiter, once Hutchinson and Cornyn are out.

Now obviously, we simply cannot have eight-tenths of a Senator running about the place (and no---mentally-challenged Conservatives and cojones-lacking Blue Dogs do not count. Sorry. Thanks for playing. Try again tomorrow.), so we'd have to round that number up to fifty-nine.

59.

As in Al Franken 59.

As in McConnell loses his cowardly/obstructionist "if-you-don't-bow-to-me-we'll-filibuster" 59.

Am I the only one in all of Blogistan who can do the math on this? C'mon, people---you're making NCLB look good here....

Posted by: S. Waybright on April 16, 2009 at 10:41 AM | PERMALINK

Let Texas go, but insist that they take Mississippi and Alabama with them.

Posted by: Jon on April 16, 2009 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

I wonder if Perry is a secret communist plant...after all, it was just recently that Russian Professor Panarin predicted the US will break up:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051100709638419.html

So really Perry, are you a Soviet operative?

Posted by: JWK on April 16, 2009 at 10:46 AM | PERMALINK

Why should we cede any state to idiots?

Also, someone upstring lumped LBJ with Bush. No way. Aside from the Vietnam War, which sunk his Presidency, LBJ was consistently one of the most liberal social Presidents ever -- Voting Rights, Civil Rights all were promoted and passed by him as part of the Great society. If you want to read literate thought, go to his library and read the letters that he sent to Congressmen, soldiers and private citizens.

I cede nothing to these people -- they deserve to be alone screaming in the wind...

Posted by: Elie on April 16, 2009 at 10:56 AM | PERMALINK

"And I am tired of idiots acting like every single thing some idiot says here represents the entire state."

This isn't just some idiot on a street corner. He's your governor, and he's talking about seceding from the US just a few months after his party lost power.

You Texans are too busy participating in another dick-measuring contest in the comments sections of blogs to realize both how treasonous these statements are and how royally fucked you would be as an indepdendent nation that sits directly on the border with Mexico.

You want people to start taking you seriously and stop with the ad-hominem attacks ? Then stop defending the assholes that make these statements by dismissing them as inconsequential. What Perry and others are doing now is purposefully poisoning the well of community and purpose that our union of states provides us. Starting down this road is a recipe for disaster.

Posted by: OhNoNotAgain on April 16, 2009 at 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

Secessionist Robert McCain spoke at the Tuscaloosa, Alabama Tea Party yesterday.

Posted by: ColinLaney on April 16, 2009 at 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Uh, are people forgetting some of the Kerry supporters in California calling for that state to seceed back in 2005? Hmmm? And are you forgetting the Vermont secessionist movement (Second Vermont Republic -www.vermontrepublic.com) has a leftist bent to it?

Secession is truly a beauty in the eye of the beholder. I wish there were more consistent secessionists out there like the SVR or the League of the South instead of the losers of the last presidential election.

Posted by: Sean Scallon on April 16, 2009 at 11:33 AM | PERMALINK

Onnonotagain --

Your point to acknowledge the harm potentially done by these separatists is a good one but your tone does not, in my opinion, promote the community you seek to defend. Ad hominem attacks on people who defend Texas in general will not be helpful, though your anger is understandable.

Many of the citizens who lost in the last election are frustrated and have no easy way to express that frustration. Better legitimate outlets such as protests and stupid speeches to secede than trying to suppress that sort of thing -- which you can't. Mostly, these things will be lost in the sands of time. Our job is to undermine their divisiveness with inclusiveness. Otherwise, you are basically just using the same tactics the Bush team did -- identifying your tribe, your people versus THE OTHERS.

Just my opinion

Posted by: Elie on April 16, 2009 at 11:35 AM | PERMALINK

I think ScottW is right; Perry is full of shit and is grandstanding. Perry's real bitchslap will happen when Mack Brown mans-up and reminds him that if Texas secedes, no more BCS for the Longhorns. That'll bring him back to his senses, since a lot of monied Longhorn alumni/supporters won't stand for that.

Posted by: Ken on April 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM | PERMALINK

Many of the citizens who lost in the last election are frustrated and have no easy way to express that frustration.

The problem is in treating this credibly at all. Look, my "tribe" has lost elections before - over the course of life, probably 50-50. I've had paid jobs on some of those campaigns, volunteered hundreds of hours for others. Some seemed important at the time, others not so much. And some of the particularly close losses caused real heartbreak on election night.

But what does one do about that "frustration"? um, get up and make breakfast for the kids and go to work the next day, mainly.

Unless one is either clinical or stuck in a highly arrested state of adolescence.

Coddling the Perry's (and worse) of the world because they are "frustrated" five months after losing an election and need a release is all wrong. They need to be sent to time out and told to grow the hell up and get some perspective.

Posted by: zeitgeist on April 16, 2009 at 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

I can only relate to how I feel about being a born and bred Texan. Remember when Shrub was Prez and ALL of us of the "leftist-normal" persuasion were embarrassed to even admit to people outside of the US that we were indeed Americans? Sometimes we'd even try to be Canadian until we opened up our mouths and let the cat out of the bag. Well, that's how we feel now with the never-ending fools we have running the state. We had it twice as bad actually. We were afraid to be Americans and doubly afraid of being Texans over the last eight years (thank goodness for the Dixie Chicks). We do our best to unseat these jackals because we love it here...just don't know how long I and countless many others can take it!

Posted by: whichwitch on April 16, 2009 at 11:51 AM | PERMALINK

Zeitgeist -

I wasn't actually arguing for codling Perry as much as not allowing our anger and contempt for his grandstanding to drive our decisionmaking about the whole state.

We either believe that we want to have a United States that includes dissenters from our opinion or not. It is tribal to the extent that we only allow those who think like us to participate and don't feel that we need to make any effort to win the other side over or at least neutralize their opposition with time.

You seem to assume that wining or losing on a given point is a fixed thing for all time -- that populations don't shift in their opinions over time. That has not proven to be the case. The strong emotions of campaigning make the differences much more intensely emotional, but we have to give way to the reality of governance -- and that means finding a way to be inclusive and to allow people a face saving way to dissent and hopefully eventially make their way back. Do you expect that we should continue to inflame the differences and keep them away and separate?

Posted by: Elie on April 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM | PERMALINK

"Your point to acknowledge the harm potentially done by these separatists is a good one but your tone does not, in my opinion, promote the community you seek to defend. Ad hominem attacks on people who defend Texas in general will not be helpful, though your anger is understandable."

I'm not attacking ScottW and others for simply defending Texas. I'm attacking them because they're saying "Well, fuck you US - if you say bad things about us we'll take our oil and all of our great shit and leave, just watch us do it". The fact that these are supposedly adults saying this shit is just downright scary.

Posted by: OhNoNotAgain on April 16, 2009 at 12:04 PM | PERMALINK

"Your point to acknowledge the harm potentially done by these separatists is a good one but your tone does not, in my opinion, promote the community you seek to defend. Ad hominem attacks on people who defend Texas in general will not be helpful, though your anger is understandable."

I'm not attacking ScottW and others for simply defending Texas. I'm attacking them because they're saying "Well, fuck you US - if you say bad things about us we'll take our oil and all of our great shit and leave, just watch us do it". The fact that these are supposedly adults saying this kind thing is just downright scary.

Posted by: OhNoNotAgain on April 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

If Texas wants out, the faster the better. In fact, we need to insist they don't change their minds.

But don't forget to bill them for the Bush (I and II) fractions of the national debt.

Posted by: PSP on April 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

So now there are at least two repub govs who want to secede, Perry and Palin. Can we go for three? There's gotta be another nutcase out there somewhere.

Posted by: G.Kerby on April 16, 2009 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

You idiots have no idea how large Texas is and how many companies call it home and would continue to call it home. -ScottW

And you are underestimating just how much business an independent Texas would do with the United States. You're writing as if Texas leaving the union would be the end of commerce.

Pray tell, who the hell do you think will be buying the oil Texas refines or any of the other various products they make? The same people who buy all the rest of the world's crap.

We get it. You like Texas, and there are liberals and oil refineries there. But we're not the ones calling for secession...it's your highest executive officer. We're simply saying not to let the door hit you...

You want people to start taking you seriously and stop with the ad-hominem attacks ? -OhNoNotAgain

Seconded. Seriously, SocttW, you always fly off the handle any time someone says something negative about Texas. That's pure jingoism and it's ugly and tiresome.

Posted by: doubtful on April 16, 2009 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

Do you expect that we should continue to inflame the differences and keep them away and separate?

For crying out loud. These people are talking about leaving the fucking Union. That isn't rational or even mildly hysterical "dissent"; that's quite frankly over-the-top insanity. And you think telling them to put their boots where their mouths are or shut up is "inflaming" them?

How long is the rest of the country expected to try to accommodate and compensate for people who flatly refuse to work with us? Do you also believe Obama isn't being "bipartisan enough"?

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

But we're not the ones calling for secession...it's your highest executive officer. We're simply saying not to let the door hit you...

No kidding, ScottW. doubtful and I know something about crazy governors. You'd have a hard time finding a couple hundred people in Illinois who don't think Blago should be in jail yesterday. Despite my going on at zeitgeist about Texas being culturally, religiously and politically diverse, I'm going to be watching very carefully to see exactly what kind of public outcry Perry's remarks inspire in Texans. It's your state. Start yelling.

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 12:27 PM | PERMALINK

Put me down in the secessionist crowd, but Texas has to take the whole red stripe up the middle of the country with it. That would leave the nation of Pacifica on our own, and the USA could consist of all the states bordering the Mississippi to the East Coast.

Then Pacifica and the US of A could join with Canada into the Northern America Union (note, not North America Union) and the flyover states would become just that.

They'd still get tourism to see the national parks, and I'd feel really sorry for Denver, which would sort of get hijacked by it's geography between Utah and Nebraska, and sorry to have to keep Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia in the US of A, but you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

Posted by: Cal Gal on April 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM | PERMALINK

I would be in favor of letting the entire South secede if it wasn't for one problem: then our nuttiest leaders would have their own country with nuclear weapons and a willingness to use them whenever they pitched a hissy fit. Does the rest of the US really want another North Korea, only crazier, right on their border?

Posted by: Shalimar on April 16, 2009 at 12:36 PM | PERMALINK

I think chris y and a few others have a point.
The USA, for a number of reasons, cannot simply let Texas go its own way.

So, how does this sound ...

The Territories of: Puerto Rico, U.S.Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Marianas Islands, the Minor Outlying Islands, and
Texas.
I mean, if they secede, that doesn't mean the rest of the States will let them get away with it.
Do they have a Navy, that could prevent or repel a blockade? An Air Force? (Oh yeah, TANG ...)
Any treaties with Mexico? I seem to recall some friction in the past. They certainly wouldn't have anything on the scale of NAFTA.
Maybe they'll go to Cuba as their primary trading partner?

Posted by: kenga on April 16, 2009 at 12:36 PM | PERMALINK

Sean Scallion:

"Uh, are people forgetting some of the Kerry supporters in California calling for that state to seceed back in 2005? Hmmm? And are you forgetting the Vermont secessionist movement (Second Vermont Republic -www.vermontrepublic.com) has a leftist bent to it?"

Somewhat false equivalence here. There is a rather substantial difference between supporters of a given political leader calling for their state's secession, and the governor of a state calling for that state's secession.

I don't want to see Texas or any other state secede, and I very much doubt that such would come to pass. Cal Gal and others: I know you're kidding, at least in part, but as a denizen of McCain's own state, I don't want to see us thrown to the right wing crazies, even if your suggestion is (mostly) in jest. Let's leave the secessionist rhetoric to Perry and his ilk, shall we? And continue our work to marginalize these people?

Someone else has already pointed out to ScottW that whatever oil is still remaining in Texas will continue to wane in importance in the future. And yes, Texas is doing very well on the wind generation front, led by T. Boone Pickens, who is doing so for his own selfish reasons. Without him, I very much doubt that Texas would be a leader in this area.

We lefties need to be even more active than we already are in pushing for the development of alternative energy sources, and NOT just by people like Pickens who would like to get a stranglehold on alternative energy source markets.

Posted by: Wolfdaughter on April 16, 2009 at 1:37 PM | PERMALINK

90% of my family lives in Texas.

I've always believed Texas was God's Beta-Version of Hell. See you guys!

Posted by: MNPundit on April 16, 2009 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

Echoing Shalimar, Texas would have to secede the same way the ex-Soviet states did. You leave your nukes with us.

Those people are bat-spit crazy.

To their credit, they voted only 54% for McCain.
One of the best totals for a Red State.


Posted by: toowearyforoutrage on April 16, 2009 at 1:51 PM | PERMALINK

Let's have a little humor folks and have some fun with this. As Molly explained in several different quotes:

In Texas, we do not hold high expectations for the [governor's] office; it's mostly been occupied by crooks, dorks and the comatose.

• Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.

• [on Texas politics] Better than the zoo. Better than the circus.

• I dearly love the state of Texas, but I consider that a harmless perversion on my part, and discuss it only with consenting adults.

• As a veteran of many an electoral defeat at the polls, may I remind you of the proper Texan attitude toward slaughter at the polls?

A few years before Billie Carr died this September at age 74, a friend called to ask how she was doing. "Well," she said, "They just impeached my boy up in Washington, there's not a Democrat left in statewide office in Texas, the Republicans have taken every judgeship in Harris County, and yesterday I found out I have cancer."

Pause.

"I think I'll go out and get a pregnancy test because with my luck, it'll come back positive."

• Naturally, when it comes to voting, we in Texas are accustomed to discerning that fine hair's-breadth worth of difference that makes one hopeless dipstick slightly less awful than the other. But it does raise the question: Why bother?

Oh, it's just that your life is at stake.


Posted by: whichwitch on April 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

I love Houston, but I don't mind getting a passport to visit my friends down there. Any of them who decide to stay, that is.

Posted by: CDW on April 16, 2009 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

Molly Ivens is sitting in Heaven,on God's left hand and she is just laughing her ass off at the antics of some of the loons in her state.
RIP Molly

Posted by: Thaddeus Horne on April 16, 2009 at 2:24 PM | PERMALINK

"And you think telling them to put their boots where their mouths are or shut up is "inflaming" them?"

Well, yes. People tend not to be told to shut up and it tends to make them more willing to fight, don't you think? Of course, that depends on one's goals. If it is to be right, and to have your way, rather than to figure out how to work things out, albeit imperfectly, inflaming is what you will get. From the rest of your comment, it seems that may be what you want.

Posted by: Elie on April 16, 2009 at 2:24 PM | PERMALINK

Let's me get this straight, the commenters here love to make broad claims about Texas, on a very regular basis because some religious group mouths off or our elected leader says something stupid.

Hmm, I remember another elected leader saying really stupid stuff and others not attacking the entire country as a bunch of gun wielding fanatics hell bent for destruction. I apologize for the whole state, but god damn, can you quit riding the Texas is the 'ass crack of the earth' band wagon every time there is story about Texas. I am not even from here, but it's irritating as hell.

In case you haven't noticed there are a lot of loud mouth republicans that are borderline insane throughout the country, but when they are from Texas, then the post get thick and numerous.

Then all the god damn 'get the fuck out' non-sense that is heard daily. If it's not Texas its the Carolinas or Georgia or Florida or whatever and then you pricks have the audacity to cry when secession is brought up. "Don't let the door hit you in ass on the way out..", then "You are a jackass if you leave". What is it, do you want us here or don't you, make up your fricken minds already. You can complain about both.

I miss the commenters who had something to say, I can see why they have left, the yapping dogs are remain. Because let's face it, there hasn't been a serious discussion here in months, certainly not since the election. And I would say it goes back to before the primaries. It's rip and tear, never anything of any substance.

But I continue because the actual posts do have substance and provoke an occasional interesting thought from a commenter, but they are getting fewer each day. Now it's attack, attack, attack even if the commenter is a liberal.

Posted by: ScottW on April 16, 2009 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

Rick Perry is and has always been a blowhard.

No one actually wants to secede, because seriously, it is a pain in the ass and people have things to do. It is just a tongue-in-cheek empty threat akin to saying you will move to Canada, if [insert name] gets elected. Oh, and Texas actually has a right to split into five states, not a secession clause.

The vitriol for Texas is pretty funny. Texas' cultural and racial demographics mirror the US's in nearly every category, except with more than twice the amount of Hispanics found nationally (and nearly a sixth of Texans are foreign born.) Our population is large and diverse enough to be unable to fit in your lazy prepackaged little boxes.

If you have ever traveled or lived elsewhere, you would know that most places are what you make of it. Even the often chastised Mississippi, which is rich in African American culture and is rather beautiful, is home to wonderful people. If you do not see that, then it is just you who sucks.


Posted by: sldc on April 16, 2009 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

nearly all the petrol goes through this state and all of the petrol is refined here.

It doesn't do your argument that TX isn't just a bunch of chest-thumping delusionals any good when you make ridiculous claims about TX refining all the nation's oil. While this may be what they teach you down in TX, the reality is that ">there are oil refineries all over the US.

In any case, I'm sympathetic to your notion that we shouldn't turn our backs on the 45% of TXns who are not completely insane blood-thirsty racists. However, I don't blame progressives who have lost all patience with the 55% who are.

Posted by: Disputo on April 16, 2009 at 2:40 PM |
PERMALINK

Sorry, screwed up the link in my last post.

Posted by: Disputo on April 16, 2009 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

Sometimes its fun to have the "did so - did not" arguments...makes for sometimes funny and entertaining posts...

To my mind, these are not to be confused with actually serious approaches to Texas or any state but the danger is that being argumentative and wanting "My way of the highway" starts to shape the way we solve problems as citizens that impact all of us...

Strangely it feels weird to hear the same tone and perspective coming from the so called progressives as we heard as a steady drumbeat from the Bushites...Ah c'mon you all -- aren't we ready (humor aside which I like), to change that a bit? And even though we know that some of THEM may not be ready for it, aren't we tired of that same ol same ol. You cannot govern, you cannot make incluside change with that shtik. All you get is the very temporary pleasure of expressing your frustration in creative and colorful ways but not one opinion or point of view is shifted one jot...not one.

Posted by: Elie on April 16, 2009 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK

rather than to figure out how to work things out, albeit imperfectly

And you think there's a way to "work things out" with secessionists...exactly how? And you think anything we say will positively influence people who think like this...exactly why?

You keep urging us to be the smoother-overs, the reacher-outers, the ones who make things right. What you never produce is an iota of evidence for how all this vaguely described inclusiveness -- there's a reason why you don't offers specifics -- will be effective at changing the minds of people who are far gone enough that they would consider actually leaving the Union. Finding common ground with political opponents is important and necessary. Is there any species of political humanity, though, that you'd concede it's impossible to reach?

What is it, do you want us here or don't you, make up your fricken minds already. You can complain about both.

Well, Scott, there are different people here with different opinions, and they write posts expressing those various viewpoints. The common thread between the two responses you mention is an extreme disgust with people who would actually threaten secession in an attempt to get their way. If you have a beef with that disgust, you might try directing your hurt feelings toward the people who think that taking their ball and going to a new home is the way to deal with political differences, rather than focusing your anger on the reaction to those people.

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK

Shortstop:

I was not trying to work things out with secessionists -- my goal was to discuss an alternative approach to yours and others here posting on this thread. I don't think that we have that serious option on the table, so lets talk reality. We have a conversation, a dialogue about a theoretical possibility based on a blowhard, Babbitt style Governor's grandstanding. That is all. And, no, I don't have a complete argument against secession but I would work on one if that was seriously in the offing.

I am more addressing attitude and whether how we think about our fellow citizens and their opinions shape our country and the potential we have for success to deal with difficult and divisive issues using arguments that involve unilateral positions of take it or leave it. Unless you want an autocracy of some sort, take it or leave it doesnt work much as a negotiation or learning strategy.

Think about the times that you have felt strongly about a position or point of view and someone who disagreed with you, particularly in a position of power, told you more or less to shut up or leave. Did that change your mind? Did it make you even want to hear what they were thinking? My guess is, well, no.

If your goal is to just let whole sections of states split off, then I guess it doesnt matter. But if you are interested in building a constituency for your point of view, particularly over time, then you might want to consider another approach.

Just sayin... (don't necessarily expect you to agree)

Posted by: Elie on April 16, 2009 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

Think about the times that you have felt strongly about a position or point of view and someone who disagreed with you, particularly in a position of power, told you more or less to shut up or leave.

Come on, Elie, this isn't hard. Unless I'd actually threatened to leave and had my bluff called -- which is what's happening in Team Perry's case -- there's no equivalence. Look, you're rather sloppily conflating general disagreements on policy issues with actual discussions about leaving the Union. "Take it or leave it" may not work as a negotiation strategy, but negotiations are not what's being discussed here -- the topic is people who threaten to secede and the responses to those threats.

Now, we can argue about whether these people are serious or not. We can disagree on whether even lightly made threats of secession should be responded to as though they were genuine ultimata. But you are confusing garden-variety differences of opinion -- and the correct or effective responses to the vast majority of political altercations -- with what is really a unique, I'm-not-playing-by-any-rules-but-my-own position that requires its own response. Vague lectures about catching more flies with honey are not just naive but thoroughly banal in this circumstance.

Posted by: shortstop on April 16, 2009 at 4:03 PM | PERMALINK

Looks like the GA Senate passed a "let's secede" resolution two weeks ago.

Posted by: Disputo on April 16, 2009 at 4:29 PM | PERMALINK

Elie, please remember who we're dealing with here. People of all stripes were labelled as anti-American for simply voicing opposition to some of Bush's policies, especially the "war on terror" and all that entailed. This is not voicing an opposition, even a muddled one, to a government policy or policies.

No sir, this is the real deal - 100% anti-American. When you suggest that we should even partially dissolve part of the US, then you're as anti-American as they come. We have a governing process in the US, and this is about doing and end-run around that process simply because these "children" aren't getting their way anymore.

Posted by: OhNoNotAgain on April 16, 2009 at 4:32 PM | PERMALINK

Elie

Unless you want an autocracy of some sort, take it or leave it doesnt work much as a negotiation or learning strategy.

First, we aren't the ones saying take it or leave it. You can look at it two ways - one, the one talking about leaving was the governor of Texas; two, if anyone is saying "this is how it is, deal with it or STFU" it is the millions of people all across America who voted Republicans out of nearly all power in November.

Contrary to what Norm Coleman seems to think, an election is not a negotiation. It is a binary choice. I know you keep denying it, but you sound like an accomodationist. Yes, its true that effective negotiation requires compromise. But there are many problems with that maxim being applied to this situation. (1) this is not a negotiation - there was an election, Obama made his views pretty clear, they were starkly different from the Republicans and people chose Obama - his focus now should be on delivering on that agenda, not negotiating a different one than the voters chose; (2) along those lines, the real world problem is that if we do not simply "write off" a block of states, the agenda will not get through or will be unrecognizable when it does - I largely agree with the premise of Whistling Past Dixie that for now Dixie simply slows down a trian that can reach its desitination without Dixie's help - it is Dixie that needs to come around, not the other 3/4 of the nation; (3) your reasonable sounding approach assumes you are dealing with a reasonable, good faith participant on the other side - facts certainly not in evidence here (with Perry or his "tribe" more broadly) - to the contrary they see compromise as weakness and an invitation to press harder; and finally (4) compromise perhaps makes sense if the status quo is fairly neutral, but if I am bleeding to death I need to get to a hospital immediately - if the Ambulance driver wants to stop for 3 errands and I can get him to compromise down to just 1, I'm still dead. The status we inherited was so screwed up, so artificially over-shifted to the right, that compromise is like slowing down an ambulance - the country needs to be reset (stat!) not in extremely tiny incremental shifts to accomodate compromise.

whew.

Posted by: zeitgeist on April 16, 2009 at 5:40 PM | PERMALINK

Look, guys. Goodhair got about 36% of the vote in the last election and he was the one furthest to the right. That gives you an idea of how many people support him. As several Texicans have mentioned on this blog, that a few flaming idiots support secession doesn't mean that most Texicans do. So when Goodhair opens his yap, just ignore him. He means nothing. His own home county voted against him in the last election. What he is trying to do is nail down the famous base because otherwise in the upcoming primary, Kay Bailey is going to wipe the floor with him.

Texicans are about sick of the way he neglects people and instead sells off state resources to his high rolling buddies. Our highway system is going to Spaniards and Australians as toll roads. Our system for signing people up for relief was privatized and was an absolute mess that has since been regovernmentalized. The electrical power distribution and generation system was privatized with a resulting increase in costs to the consumer of over 200%. He has given the insurance companies the right to make their own rules and set their own prices. Do you really think that this jerk can convince a majority of Texicans to follow him into oblivion?!

Posted by: Texas Aggie on April 16, 2009 at 5:46 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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