I have to wonder if our President isn't a little too cautious. I don't think any of the higher level officials were acting in good faith. They knew it was torture. They were all schooled in the notion of the rule of law. They concluded they were above the law. I don't care if their motives were pure. They should go to jail.

Bybee should be impeached immediately.

It's a Congressional action -- the president is not involved.

He sits in a courthouse in Nancy Pelosi's district, for crying out loud.

He's depraved. He shouldn't be allowed to walk free, much less rule from a Federal bench.

Don't hold your breath. And to help you through our Nuremberg defense, every time you hear the phrase "move/moving forward," take a shot.

Following orders is not a defense.

Whatever happens with the architects of this Marqui de Sade of legal reasoning, I will sleep a little better tonight knowing that Yoo, Bybee et al will likely not be.

So help me out here. They won't prosecute the CIA torturers at Gitmo, but weren't the torturers at Abu Gharib also following orders from the same source? Were they made scapegoats to stifle the matter? Or were they just a rogue band of soldiers that decided to do this independently?

Imagine you are a party to a lawsuit being heard by Bybee and you have just read the execrably laughable legal arguments he provided for justifying obvious torture.

He shouldn't have to be impeached. How can anyone in his court imagine that they'll receive justice from an intellect like that?

He needs to resign.

The DoD got memos from OLC for the same reasons that the CIA did, and the best reconstructions are that abusive DoD practices at Gitmo authorized by these memos "migrated" to Abu Ghraib. The army offical at Gitmo overseeing those practices (Geoffrey Miller) subsequently went to Abu Ghraib with a sanction to "Gitmo-ize" it. So it wasn't a rogue band, although GWB and RC would dearly love us to believe that.

If it doesn't apply to Yoo (especially), Addington (who should be hanged for his utter contempt of congress - literally), and Bybee, what is the point?

This is an outrage which needs to be righted! For the future of this country. We see what happened when it is not...Nixon gave us Cheney, et al.

Enough already!

The CIA knows it has Obama in a bind. They control the US and can make his administration quite a "torturous" one if crossed. They've been throwing out hints of this for awhile.

I think the only thing Obama can do is try to embarrass the people involved by releasing this info (even though the guilty could care less about what happened - in their own sick minds they were virturously defending America). What other countries can do...I don't know. It will be an even larger embarrassment for Obama if we don't see fit to prosecute our own criminals. The world will see us for what we are - COWARDS. I only hope I'm wrong.

There is no way Obama could have come into office, guns blazing, with intent to prosecute. There were too many other fish to fry, and the optics and politics were all wrong.

Politics is, of course, the art of the possible. The trick is to create the environment where what you want to do is not only possible, but the logical next step.

"Reluctantly" releasing the memos is smart. He has to preserve his constituency in the intelligence community for the long term, so he couldn't just throw them out there. He had to be perceived -- accurately or not -- as not being gung-ho about it.

But some memos are out there now. Questions are being asked, points are being debated. The torture folk are starting to be on the defensive (the Hayden op-ed is an attempt to turn the argument back to the offensive).

The inadvertent (?) mention of a 'ghost detainee' opens the door to a lot more question. Why is America holding prisoners in secret locations in secret prisoners? And is it possible this particular guy (Ghul) was tortured to death? And it was covered up?

The pot doesn't boil right away, and a watched pot never boils. You start things simmering, keep the flame on low and let things take their course.

Obama is smart and cautious, as we all know, and he thinks ahead. However much he might have felt that prosecution was the *right* thing, it had to happen in the *right* way. So he keeps the pot simmering, slowly, and leaves options open. I think this is his only play with the cards he's been dealt.

The wheels of justice turn slowly. But you can feel them turning.

Scott thanks. That's been pinging around in my head for some time now. I always thought the Abu Gharib group were taking a hit. I don't recall much about the trial but did they not testify they too were following orders?

This truly reminds me now of Watergate, when things began to unravel for Nixon that summer, and the full tale began to unfold.

I think I'm going to be sick.

Does anyone know what folks like Yoo and Bybee would be prosecuted for? Is "war crimes" the only option here?

The ultimate shame of it is that Yoo is still a tenured Professor of Law in that bastion of liberalism, UC Berkeley.

Makes you wonder if the liberal/conservative demarcation among the elite is just a elaborate hoax designed to fool the hoi polloi into thinking that people do have power.

I don't think the Nuremberg analogy works. These people weren't "just following orders." They were requesting and following legal advice from the same organization that would prosecute them. It obviously doesn't make what they did legal, but prosecution of the ones who followed the letter of the memos would be problematic in several ways I think.

I don't think Bush got together with Condi Rice and all the other White House hands the other day to talk about his legacy and raising cash for his library. They got together to talk about this and get their story straight.

Obama is a coward for not stepping up to the plate and denouncing torture and not only torture as of his first day in office. He should have immediately gone after the scoundrals who participated FOR WHATEVER REASON !!! The initiators, the writers, the participants and the leaders in this fiasco all need to have a day (or two) in our court and then sent to the Hague for their comeuppance. PERIOD. Can you imagine the outrage if the Gestapo types were slapped on the hand?

In the newspaper the other day there was a shot of DOA types lugging an 88 year old fellow in a wheel chair named Damjack (please excuse my spelling) from Cleveland, who was accused of being a Nazi prisoner camp guard who brutilized prisoners he was guarding during the war. He was convicted of this crime and the US has been trying to deport him for his participation in war crimes. Why would Obama not stop this "cruel" effort to bring accountability to an old fart? He "never did it again" and definitely not on Obama's watch so why all the fuss?

They are doing it because that old fart was convicted of a war crime. Torture is a war crime. Bring these perps to court. Try them. If convicted, lug them, like that old fart, down the steps and away! Obama is making me nauseated on this one and his buckling under on the warrentless spy deal. He's staring to materialize into an enigma. A politcal chameleon if you will...

What zmulls said. The first step was releasing the memos. This should get Americans ashamed and angry and should start public political pressure for prosecutions, or at least deflate opposition to them. If public opinion demands pulling the Bush administration into court, why would Obama's people want to stand in the way?

On the other hand, being perceived as starting a witch hunt ahead of public pressure for one would likely create a lot of political opposition.

It looks to me like Obama has made the right first move. Now that these obscene musings have been revealed for all to read and see, let's get on with the debate starting with getting these worthless hacks disbarred.

Let them defend their words, and then publicly rebuke them as cowards.

In a word, Steve, "bullshit."

Doorknob, you are in the tank on this one.

===

Gregor, no:

Per Jeff Toobin, the ultimate shame is that Jay Bybee flew under the radar early on and now sits on the Ninth Circuit. From where, if EFF wins its telco spying suit, that's the appellate court of venue.

well, sadly, the best we can hope for is a far-off goal of impeaching Bybee and disbarring Yoo. that's it.

Obama stating that individual CIA officers won't be charged means we can't give them immunity to turn on their superiors, who then turn on theirs, etc, up the chain of command to the top. that's how it works. if you aren't going to take the first steps, you can't take subsequent steps.

Some euphemistically called "enhanced interrogations" were being conducted BEFORE the memos of the legal opinions were written, so I'm venturing a guess that those who were doing this pre-memo are going to be the ones prosecuted. And then everything else will fall down the memory hole and nothing will really change about people like Cheney and Bybee et al being above the law. And then I don't know what this country will become down the road.

April 17, 2009

Day 2 of the self announced failure of the Obama administration to uphold the Constitution and laws of the United States.

Anyone who believes that the 'appropriate punishment' for torturers and murders and those who order them is public humiliation or history is a abject fool. To not investigate and prosecute illegalities of politicians and government employees is to invite more and worse in the future.

Ya gotta love the notion that acts of evil, like attaching electrodes to a guy's nuts can be committed "in good faith."

The very fact that people are able to discuss the torture issue using terms like "good faith" and "enhanced interrogation techniques" without their heads exploding is proof positive that the American people suffer from profound moral perversion.

The torture was contracted out with the instructions, "get any information you can, doing what ever works short of killing them. and we'll cover for you...legally.

These were not dedicated government workers...they were privatized sadistic greedy bastards out for pay back and to spread fear.

Acting like they were just following orders or doing their 'jobs' is buffing turds and claiming they don't stink.

Most victims were guilty of nothing but being Muslim or in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is deeply disappointing and betrayal by Obama's DoJ. Do we have no defenders of our laws left?

You can bet your bottom dollar that if it had been Jews rather than Arabs who were getting tortured, that there would be a unanimous call in the country for the CIA torturers to be hanged, drawn and quartered.

"I was only following orders" was deemed not a valid defense at Nuremburg, and the same Justice Department that's so intent on not doing its job here has pursued concentration camp guard (ranked at "Private") John Demanjuk for over 20 years to deport him for his crimes. But we can't go after the American equivalents?

This is why there's an International Criminal Court, to administer justice where a country's legal and political system is incapable of doing the right thing. No wonder the United States has opposed the ICC since it was created.

Posted by: Stevio on April 17, 2009 at 10:49 AM

Didn't you see "Blazing Saddles" where the black sheriff rides into town and only gets away by holding a gun to his own head and threatening to shoot himself if anybody tried anything?

It's not that far off. Obama is standing in the middle of 8yrs of republican thuggery, like standing in an auditorium and from the podium announcing that the first thing you're gonna do is Have all the mob bosses arrested...and then realize that the entire auditorium is packed with mob bosses and their soldiers.

Doing this at a time when there is an economic disaster and an energy disaster and noting that standing with the mob bosses are the heads of the financial industries and the oil companies.

Standing with you are only a handful of supporters and some of them are waving to the mob bosses and asking if there is anything they can do for them.

Disassembling the Money Party requires a lot of tact. It requires the crowds outside the auditorium loudly demanding accountability and change.
Here's hoping for many backdoor infiltrations to replace or deBushify our government.

Nothing would please me more than to see the top dogs in the Bush administration get what's coming to them. But before we string up those at the bottom of the chain of command as well, we ought to consider that the responsibility for CIA torture doesn't stop with the hands-on perps (many of whom probably were specifically selected for their lack of sophistication), or the lawyers, or with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo and Bush.

The whole world has known these illegal activities have been going on, long before the 2004 election, and the fact is, our society did nothing about it. Even eminent Democrats in no danger of losing their seats -- let alone Republicans -- were too craven and cowardly to challenge Bush. And I don't remember millions of Americans taking to the streets to demand accountability and morality from their leaders and representatives. Fact is, most Americans have bloody hands in this matter.

By all means, let's get out the truth, as Obama appears to be doing. And let's do our best to achieve some justice. But let's not kid ourselves that a handful of convictions -- if that's even possible -- makes us all right with the world.

In war, what might be call "street justice" often happens and is customarily overlooked or swept under the rug by the victorious side. For example, the slaughter of German POWs by US troops of the "greatest generation" after the liberation of Dachau. Sniff, sob. No great groundswell of outrage erupted, nor is the body politic going to get too exited over three waterboarded terrorists.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/archive/dachau-liberation/

DACHAU CONCENTRATION CAMP - LIBERATION
A Documentary - U.S. Massacre of Waffen SS - April 29,1945

I didn`t know there was legislation that explicitly mentioned mind altering substances.

No wonder so few people want to mention the earliest first hand account of CIA treatment I read:

Barely an hour before the airport closes for the night 18th December 2001, a small, very special jet plane lands at Bromma in Stockholm. Two civilian police cars are let in through the gate by the policewoman who guards it. In one of them is Muhammed Al Zery, 33 years, in the other Ahmed Agiza , 39 years.

Kalla Fakta has spoken with all we have found who were at Bromma that night. No one dares come forward publicly, but some have told what they saw, under the condition that they remain absolutely anonymous.

In a room, a group of men from the newly arrived plane, in plain clothes, are waiting. They have their faces hooded.

The two prisoners have their clothes cut from their bodies by scissors, without their hand- and footcuffs being loosened. The naked and chained prisoners have a suppository of unknown kind inserted into their anus, and diapers are put on them. They are forcibly dressed in dark overalls. Their hands and feet are chained to a specially designed harness. On the plane, both men are blindfolded and hooded.

When the plane takes off at 21.49 and sets course towards Egypt, Sweden is making a great deviation from a long tradition of safeguarding human rights.

Thats from a Human rights watch translation of the transcript of the investigative TV program Kalla Fakta (cold fact) from Swedish TV4. HRW published it back in May 2004.

First hand accounts, apparently from Swedish police officers, years before most Americans even heard of rendition.

So now we know what kind of "non torture" mock burials, "slapping" and headbanging was authorized, can we please move on to how some many died while in CIA or DOD custody?

If the white house authorizes lots of techniques that all have in common they leave little or no marks and, provided doctors keep a close eye on the victim, don`t necessarily kill a person,
an many in the CIA didn`t want to be any part of this, then how did people end up dead?

Was it just a coincidence? A bad apple loosing his cool, or was there a reason that only the bad apples were in charge of interrogation?

I worry Obama may have let of the low level people of the hook on principle over only following order, without knowing if they actually you know, followed orders.

If the smart CIA people want nothing to do with this, is it possible only the xenophobe brutes who want revenge for 9/11 remain? There is no reason to know that the people who did the actual torture didn`t go further than even Bybee figured was legal.

And if he did sell out these principles to get 60 votes in congress then the price should have been high enough:
- lots of votes for basic budgets and confirmations
- GOP governors have to distribute the stimulus money to the people with no choice but to spend it rather then their few favorite construction companies who put it in an off-shore bank account.
- 20+ GOP votes for universal healthcare
- 100% auction for carbon permits
- 40+ GOP votes for enough wall street regulation to survive years of deregulation, who needs Dodd anyway if you have the GOP by the balls?

Other than that I don`t see any reason to play nice with the party that doesn`t distance itself from war criminals.