Thiessen needs to be tortured, just so we can test his commitment to his faith! -Kevo

Actually, if Thiessen breaks, we'll have proof positive that's he's an Islamifascist infiltrator!

I think we should change our mind about Washington Post's decision to give these guys a forum. A rope to hang themselves etc..

Wasn't the church-sponsored torture during medieval times viewed, in the eyes of the church, as "helping" the subjects with their soul? I see this sentiment is alive and well in certain circles of power even today.

Whew, that clears things up.

I feel better now!

Let's go torture some more people, then.

Maybe we can start a movement, complete with live bands and fundraising: "Torture Aid," where the US will help you test the limits of your Allah commitment. Bone up on your tolerance! Or a new amusement park theme: Come to "Torture Land," new this year at Disney.

Uhhhhh...as a military guy I can tell you with authority that the so-called rationale here, "brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship", is essentially the VERY SAME argument WE are given at SERE with regards to interrogations and our obligations. We are to simply resist to the utmost of our abilities with the full recognition that, at some point, EVERYONE talks.

So it appears that this Thiessen clown is arguing for the torture of US soldiers so that they have an "excuse" to let loose whatever information they hold.

Arguments written by a pansy who never served and who would piss his pants at the very thought of going through SERE.

Funny - when I went through a day of SERE training in the US Army (not the full course, just as a training dummy for a Military Intelligence unit) we were told basically the same thing. Resist as long as you can, but everyone will eventually break, so accept that, when or if it happens. Just do your best to resist as long as you can.

Thiessen's argument rests on a false premise, that the torturer (enhanced-interrogator?) will know when the subject is coming clean. In reality the tendency will be to keep applying torture to extract any additional information that the subject has. Inevitably that leads the subject to create more information in the hopes that the torture will stop.

You just don't get reliable intel from torture.

You know those prisoners wanted to. They just had some religious 'hang-ups.' Their mouths were saying 'no no no,' but their bodies, er, minds were saying 'yes yes yes.'

They'll thank us in the morning.

Using Thiessen's twisted logic, if (hypothetically) I went out and killed a bunch of conservative born-again Christians I would be doing them a favor. According to their faith, they are biding their time on Earth until God calls them to their Eternal Reward. By committing mass murder, I would simply be hurrying that along and, according to Theissen I should be honored for doing it.

"We had to destroy the village to save it."

I do find today's republicans to be very disgusting human beings on every issue.

Marc Thiessen would also say, "I punched my wife and kids in the face 183 times so I could help them obey God. "

After reading Praedor Atrebates (1:29) and Wapiti (1:31), I am only convinced that Zubaydah's interpretation was helped along with SERE trained interrogators' suggestions and some torture.

maybe there is a scale of blatant "nudge nudge wink wink" monstrous sociopathology that we can measure scientifically to calculate the nihilistic forces of these sick thugs.

maybe that area of study of the protagonist in Delilio's "White Noise" is the place to research this.

You really have to wonder why a paper that's losing readers every day would have a far-right apparatchik like Fred Hiatt flinging feces every day. Thiessen is one turd amongst a storm of others. Maybe the owners are bored and want to get into a growth industry, like REPO sales.

Question: What differentiates man from the 'lower' species of primates?

Answer: The ability to rationalize.

April 21, 2009

Has Obama pulled back from his 'pledge' to not investigate torture and other crimes of the Bush Criminal Enterprise?

Or is it day 6 of Obama renouncing his oath of office to uphold the Constitution and laws of our country?

It may be politically expedient, but it is legally and morally wrong and it will happen again if there is no price to be paid for crimes.

Steve Benen wrote: "... despite the vitriol and the fact that his claims haven't withstood scrutiny, Thiessen has managed to become a regular contributor to the Washington Post's op-ed page ..."

What do you mean "despite"?

Regurgitating fake, phony, trumped-up, scripted, focus-group-tested, corporate-sponsored, pseudo-ideological "conservative" vitriol and making false claims that don't withstand scrutiny are the basic requirements for becoming a regular contributor to the Post op-ed page.

Just ask George Will.

Abu Zubaydah

83 waterboardings in a month. That's even more than 72 virgins. The torturers must be frickin' Angels, giving out that much "help". Zubaydah doesn't know how lucky he is. And reports suggest he doesn't even know what planet he's from after all that hep.

You know what, I read shit like this, and I want to lend some "help" to these sadistic asshats.

About "183"...

This is why the R/wing lose:

Common sense informs every citizen that "waterboarded 183 times" is either torture or something that doesn't work and therefor, if it was close to torture (but not quite), done 183 times even though it doesn't work (the first 100 times), is definitely torture. They know, instinctively, that Cheney and Condi and Junior told their Jack Bauers "drown the fucker..."

The far right loonies do seem to think that torture is all right as long as it is done on "those Muslims" Torture is torture no matter who does it or who it is done on. What may happen in the future to any of our captured troops will be on their hands. This bunch has made us no better than Nazi Germany or WWII Japan. Since most of these rethugs are also the born again Christians I sure hope they are held accountable for these despicable acts by their God.

OK, this may be the absolutely stupidist rationale I have ever read.
Apparently, all you need to write for the Post is an "R" or a "C" after you name.
Why would you publish something so stupid? Oh, yeah, Fred H....

I'm sure that Thiessen, when he wallops his children on Sunday after church, also says things like "it hurts me more than it does you" and "it's for your own good".

PS My husband is, *finally*, coming along to the decision that we shall stop our subscription to the WashPo (we'll keep the one to NYT). In the days of economic uncertainty and hardship, even a small saving on the amount of BS we ingest ought to pay back, in spades, in improved mental health (for which we do not have insurance).

Marc Thiessen: "Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, 'as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship.'"

Forgive me if somebody has pointed this out already, but Thiessen's argument doesn't even address the critique of torture that he purports to address in his first sentence above--that is that torture generates false information from persons who have no useful information to share. His argument, silly as it is, assumes that any and all tortured prisoners do, in fact, have useful information to share.

In other words, he claimed to address a specific criticism, but then he immediately changed the subject.

Using the same form of logic our just and awesome white Christian God wants there to be temptation, that we may refrain from. It's easy to avoid temptation when it's taken from you in the first place, know what I mean? Therefore, so many of the things the right wants to make or keep illegal - from abortion to gay marriage to drugs to sodomy - they should all be legal and accessible to all.

To do otherwise is to make our God angry. You wouldn't like Him when He's angry.

And we have Rachel Maddow's pointed observation that although folks like Cheney are adamant that torture has produced all sorts of wonderful intelligence that saved lives, we wound up subjecting Kalid Sheik Muhammed to waterboarding 132 times in one MONTH.

Probably because the first 131 times didn't work, she noted wryly.

The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.

Uh, since when is it our job to help terrorists?

Why does Marc "Terrorist-Helper" Thiessen hate America so much?

so this guy is saying that torturing helps the terrorists? then aren't those who torture actually terrorist sympathizers? and shouldn't they all be put on trial?

"...they're on Dantooine."

In other words, "He was dressed like he wanted it"

Adam Serwer summarizes the evolution of the rationalization: "First we had 'torture works.' Then we had 'they deserve it.' Now we have 'they need us to do it.'"

Hell, everyone knows when they say no they really mean yes.

Besides, they're just untermenchen.

the philadelphia inquirer allows john torture yoo to disgrace its pages almost every sunday.

id quit my subscription but for the coupons...

During one of the more memorable episodes of Seinfeld, George Costanza helps Jerry prepare for a lie detector test by advising, "it's not a lie if you believe it." And so it is with Republican defenders of the Bush administration's regime of detainee torture. As it turns out, Marc Thiessen, David Rivkin, Peggy Noonan, Michael Hayden, Michael Mukasey and Dick Cheney are just some of the cavalcade of conservatives whose tortured defenses of the indefensible sound like catch-phrases from the late, great NBC comedy. Call it the Seinfeld Defense of torture.

For the details on the shrinkage and other yada yada yada of the Republicans on torture, see:
"The GOP's Seinfeld Defense of Torture."

This is why biblical Fundarmentalists in the West should not be allowed to have Nuclear Weapons - they WANT the Rapture and if it comes via them nukking another country that has nukes..no problemo!

Oh, thank Allah I was waterboarded!

Not telling was absolute torture!!

Oh honey, even if waterboarding was code for "dick", I'm not sure even I would want it 83 times in a month - you know what I mean?

Thiessen:

"...the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable."

Wasn't this the same kind of Dr. Strangelove bullshit they fed us throughout the Cold War? That the Commies were bent on world domination?

Jeezus, all they've done is replaced "Commies" with "Muslims," and the whole damned country has accepted it as true. It MUST be true, BECAUSE THEY TOLD US.

I think it's all perfectly clear.

First of all, we did not do the torture that we did.

Second of all, the people who did the torture (that we did not do) were not authorized to do it.

And finally, the people that authorized the torture (that we did not do) were goddamn right to do so.

Thiessen is promoting a major falsehood regarding the Library Tower plot. Details here.

This guy is on CPAN right now. Seeing him say these things is very telling. He must be very lonely. There are not many of these torture supporters left. This guy was a SPEECHWRITER for Bush. A SPEECHWRITER. He is now saying that he has seen the memos detailing the "success" of the torture. Really? A speechwriter had clearance to see classified CIA documents?
If so, then it is true that the Bush Whitehouse had contempt for the CIA and DID out agents and subvert their covert ops.

What exactly does everyone think they have to offer once they "break"? I'm sure Al Queada, just like the US military, gives all their soldiers reams of their most secret information to be memorised, and then says "Don't tell them this if they torture you"

In order to "break" with any benefit to the enemy you have to actually know something worthwhile. So after being waterboarded, you finally scream out "Yes, yes, they did call me "Pimples" at school! I admit it! Now go and conquer the US"

I have never understood what these people were supposed to know that we could torture out of them? That Allah is great?
If you tortured a guy from the 101st airborne, could he "break" and tell you how to make a hydrogen bomb, or what the "football" codes are? No, he doesn't know.

You don't use torture if what you want is reliable information rather than the victim telling you what you want to hear. Obviously the converse is also true.

A further rule that applies here: once torture is declared justified on the basis of the "ticking bomb" scenario, the number of situations understood to be ticking time bombs increases exponentially.

I thought it was Fritz Thiessen you were talking about, the notorious financier of the nascent Nazi party who connected Hitler with Henry Ford, GM, the Rockefellers, the Ethyl company, and IBM, the folks who made the Holocaust happen. Not Mark Thiessen, who seems to be no less vigorous a supporter of authoritarianism in defense of Capital.