The Senate Armed Services report has been released and is damning as well. Of particular note, is the finding that Cheney and his sidekick Rumsfeld pushed for these torture tactics to be used in Iraq for the purpose of extracting evidence that Saddam/Iraq was in league with Al Quaeda. Puts a whole new twist to the story and belies the Bushies ticking bomb hogwash as the sole reason for using torture.

May we at least get a consensus view (not here, everywhere) that everyone who tried to defend the Bush administrations use of torture by talking about ticking time-bomb scenarios is a world-class wanker?

The Bushies were like the keystone cops crossed with the most corrupt police department that ever beat a confession out of a suspect and there wasn't a ticking bomb or its near equivalent anywhere in sight.

Considering all the debate over whether anyone should be prosecuted for torturing detainees during the Bush administration, I think it's a little strange that no one has mentioned that seven people have already been convicted of torturing detainees.

By the Bush administration.

Back when George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and the rest of his administration were pretending to be shocked that any such thing could have occurred.

Here is the link on the Iraq/Al quaeda torture effort I mentioned.

If a President does it it's legal. If a Republican President does it, it is not only legal, but moral as well, and sanctioned by God.

What was the problem again?

Mayberry Machiavellians -

Incompetent at managing the economy
Incompetent at managing the environment
Incompetent at managing the war
Incompetent at managing foreign affairs
Incompetent at wiping their own damn asses.

Where or where did the myth of Republican competence ever come from?

If you believe that they were truly ignorant of the history of these methods, I would like to sell you some investment services managed by the ex head of NASDAQ, now spending time in a luxurious hotel somewhere in New York.

I just read as much of Senator Levin's report as I could stomach. The level of depravity, and afterward the mendacity, of the Bush Admin, DoD and OLC is sickening.

One thing is sure...these fuckers were being warned over and over by UCMJ and civilian lawyers that this was torture and it was illegal.

This can't be swept under a carpet. This is beyond feigning ignorance or confusion. We, as a nation have to stand up and deal with this responsibly, and according to the laws and principles that we have espoused.

And that means prison. Plain and simple.

From the McClatchy article:

"The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there."

It was during this period that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaida detainees repeatedly — Abu Zubeida at least 83 times in August 2002 and Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times in March 2003 — according to a newly released Justice Department document.

So, Dick and Donald absolutely wanted to make a connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. Since the CIA couldn't deliver any evidence of that sort from Zubeida and KSM at first, they had them serially waterboarded. Which still produced nothing.

Who decided to stop after exercise No 183? Did they just run out of time to produce any evidence that could have been used for a second resolution from the UN security council? Or where the CIA guys just getting exhausted because things turned real ugly and the futility was getting to them? Where the tapes of the torture sessions destroyed because they again and again showed the more and more desperate attempts of the interrogators to make the 9/11-Irak connection?

As Dick and Donald still told us about a 9/11-Irak connection after March 2003, they obviously didn't accept that there was no there there. Which didn't matter anyway, because for them it was all about getting that Saddam sob. Whatever justification was necessary for going to war would be found in Irak, one way or another. Which also worked out nicely.

What this explains though, is why Dick is so desperately trying to block as much as possible the release of information related to the torture practices. All that is, is Dick Cheney CYA action. Maybe he no doesn't believe that people other than Scooter are any longer prepared to take a bullet for the boss.

A Perfect Storm of Ignorance and Enthusiasm.

The best description of the Bush administration I have come across.

The Bush Administration was like the guy in Memento who carefully hides information from himself so that he will feel righteous about committing heinous crimes.

A perfect storm. Really, the institution just had really bad luck there.

Everyone knew Saddam had weapons. (Why was he acting so guilty)? Gosh, intelligence failures. Coulda happened to anyone.

No one could have predicted...

Whatever fuckers.

An aside: to me, the torture is awful, evil, but it probably happened to a few hundred people. Meanwhile, the US killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq. And I bet there isn't a "liberal" writing for this rag, just for one example, who didn't support that war initially, before it became uncool among all the little Thomas Friedmans. (Even while 40-50% of the US population opposed it, AND even 30-50% of spineless Dem politicians opposed it. Our press is more belligerent than the rest of the country, and MUCH more belligerent than a cohort group that matches the media's otherwise leftish views.

What's up with that?

"This is what happens when we stop demanding minimal competence in our Presidents... when we start caring more about who we would rather have a beer with..".

That's as pompous as it gets.

The line between "they didn't bother to study interrogation techniques" and "they were just following orders" is non existent.

More to the point, you surely understand that democratic party shot callers in congress acquiesced in afflicting torture on prisoners.

You do, don't you?

I don't buy it. Sure, there were probably some who were ignorant (Bush, in particular). But among all the people involved in this not a single one of them knew the true history of SERE and how we prosecuted torture cases after WWII? That stretches believability to the breaking point.

More likely is the scenario that some did know about these things, but they were caught up in the hysteria of the times and didn't feel like getting in the way of the steamroller that was pushing the idea that "SOMETHING" had to be done.

how can we rescind the medals of freedom given to tenet etc.? how can we insure that they no longer collect a pension from the rest of us?

Nobody knew nothing about waterboarding, SERE school, etc?

Didn't they see G.I Jane?

It's not the holes in their knowledge, it's the holes in their souls.

Perhaps no one asked them if they did their research by watching 24.

This NYT story is just cobbled together self- serving former Bush administration leaks - combined with on-the-record self-serving statements from Zelikow. "Oh, if ONLY we had KNOWN . . . " Yeah, sure. There needs to be a complete investigation before we can draw any conclusions along these lines.

I can almost understand the loss of institutional memory on waterboarding from 50 years ago. However, the 2002 Bybee memo is a legal document. As the head of OLC, it is incumbent on him to at least perform a cursory search on the legalities of waterboarding and he would have been well aware of the WWII decisions. The fact that these relevant cases are not referenced in the memo indicate that he is either incompetent (not qualified for the bench) or dishonest (not qualified for the bench).

This can't be spun any other way. Bybee should be disbarred and impeached.

I'm sorry but I don't believe anyone - especially people that ought to know - when they say they didn't know the history of SERE, etc. I am not and have never been in the military and I have a passing knowledge of SERE, etc. before 2001.

They are saying this to somehow absolve themselves of willful disobedience to the spirit of the law and moral failures on their part.

They didn't know may ass.

And for the most part, former Bush officials are trying to get that stink off themselves while former VP Dick seemingly needs to play with the shit for a bit longer! Dick, torture don't work! -Kevo

The Bush administration opened the Pandora's Box of ignorance. We're reaping the results in every area but by far this is the greatest tragedy. We MUST prosecute Bush and those in his administration that pushed the use of torture.

Is it "They didn't know" or "They didn't want to know"

The NY Times article reeks of plausible deniability.

Oh, but we din' KNOW. Goshers.

I honestly see no reason to believe this -- not the 'nonnamus sources and not the Times.

They knew.

Don't underestimate ignorance. I recall the famous Mayberry Machiavelli article in Texas Monthly quoting John Diulio (sp?) about meetings on domestic poverty programs with no one but him in the room knowing the difference between Medicaid and Medicare or legislation related to the topic. Their primary focus was image and spin. Everything was run by the political arm of the White House with further exhibits evident in these events.

I, quite simply, do not believe them.
I do not think they are telling the truth.
In fact, I think they are pulling a Sgt Shultz.

The corporate media has been complicit in selling the willful ignorance of people, whose very job description it is to be informed, as just another case of "who coulda knowed?".

This is what happens when we stop demanding minimal competence in our Presidents

I think this is a case of missing the forest by focusing too much on the trees. The big problem is that this is what happens when the reins of all three branches of the government are effectively controlled by a party whose main philosophical underpinning is the quote, "[g]overnment is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem."

If you were ill would you consult with a doctor who told you that only God could cure you and all doctors can do is make things worse? That is pretty much what the Bush administration said to all of us...and we re-elected him?

None of the pro-torture advocates have answered the following basic question:

If you were being tortured how would you convince your torturers that you do not have the information they are seeking?

I don't know how Cheney could not have known about SERE training. Oh yeah, he never served in the military.

I was in a squadron preparing to deploy to Vietnam in 1968. Every member of every flight crew was required to undergo SERE training. We literally ate bugs and roots for several days (before we were "captured"), and then underwent interrogation techniques for two days. We did not have waterboarding as one of those techniques.

Even so, I realized that few people would be able to resist even the techniques that were allowed to be used. That the Vietcong might have the will and knowledge to use other, more coercive means, made us determined not to be caught.