Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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May 6, 2009

GEORGE WILL KEEPS DIGGING.... Given George Will's errors on the environment lately, it's tempting to think he'd avoid the subject altogether. No such luck.

Over the weekend, ABC's "This Week" briefly covered the president's latest White House press conference. The show featured a clip from Obama in which he said, "I know that if the Japanese can design an affordable, well-designed hybrid, then doggone it, the American people should be able to do the same. So my job is to ask the auto industry, 'Why is it you guys can't do this?'"

George Will was unimpressed.

"I assume the president is talking about the Prius. It's affordable because Toyota sells it at a loss, and it can afford to sell it at a loss because it is selling twice as many gas-guzzling pickup trucks of the sort our president detests. So as an auto executive, he's off to a rocky start."

Actually, the only thing "rocky" here is the quality of Will's analysis.

In reality, Toyota used to sell hybrids at a loss -- in 1997. The industry and consumer trends have changed considerably over the last 12 years, and Toyota started making a profit on each Prius sold way back in 2001.

Indeed, reader R.H. directed me to this item, which noted, "[T]he Nikkei newspaper in Japan estimated just last week that both Honda and Toyota make over $3,000 of profit on each hybrid sold."

Will isn't having a good year.

Steve Benen 9:10 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (54)

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Comments

I used to think George Will was a bright guy who was just blinded by political ideology. I'm beginning to think he's as much of a dimwit as Mike Pence.

Posted by: bluestatedon on May 6, 2009 at 9:02 AM | PERMALINK

Bowtie, glasses, nice haircut, surely he's not stupid?

Posted by: dr2chase on May 6, 2009 at 9:07 AM | PERMALINK

Over the past thirty years at least, every George Will column contains at least one flaw in reasoning or factual error that completely undermines the point he thinks he's making. (Except some of the fluff columns, like the ones about baseball.) It used to be fun to look for it (kind of a "Where's Will-do"), but I stopped reading him when it got too easy.

Posted by: Redshift on May 6, 2009 at 9:08 AM | PERMALINK

Poor George Willie just can't help coming across as being dumb; his common-sense hamster wheel broke down years ago, and he's been trying to replace it with radio-tube technology ever since....

Posted by: S. Waybright on May 6, 2009 at 9:11 AM | PERMALINK

Thanks for this. I tried to research this briefly right as he said it-- it didn't seem to pass the smell test-- but didn't come up with much.

What I did find is that, in the Japanese market, Toyota was lowering the price of the Prius in order to compete with the Honda Insight. It seemed far-fetched to believe that both companies would sell a marquee car at a loss.

Posted by: Shantyhag on May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM | PERMALINK

Thank You, Steve!

I had heard Will's jackass comment on Sunday, and told my wife that she should take it with a grain of salt. Common sense immediately told me that had to be a blatant lie. I hadn't looked into it yet, so thanks.

Posted by: wtf on May 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM | PERMALINK

Just for the record, I never thought he was that good on baseball either.

Posted by: cconfoy on May 6, 2009 at 9:14 AM | PERMALINK

"Shape of Earth: views differ."

Will really suffers for lying constantly.

Posted by: Obama / Steelers / etc on May 6, 2009 at 9:17 AM | PERMALINK

Will should take the buyout and enjoy his retirement. After all, he and his viewpoints aren't getting any younger! -Kevo

Posted by: kevo on May 6, 2009 at 9:19 AM | PERMALINK

The "Toyota sells the Prius at a loss" argument was a standard GOP talking point all last year; I was surprised Will thought it was still in use. The other one is that Toyota only sold Priuses in the US as long as you could get a tax credit for them. Once the credit expired, sales dropped to zero.

And George Will knows as much about baseball as Rush Limbaugh knows about football. Which is zero. But all Republicans know that a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth to millions.

Posted by: Lifelong Dem on May 6, 2009 at 9:22 AM | PERMALINK

The fact that Will has not been fired and laughed out of the Big Opinion industry is evidence that facts have nothing to do with his line of business.

Posted by: Badass4Peace on May 6, 2009 at 9:24 AM | PERMALINK

I blame George Will's mother and father. When I was a child I was taught it was wrong to lie. And I was also taught if you make a mistake be man enough to fess up to it. Obviously he either was never taught these lessons or just refused to learn them. I don't think that you can categorize someone like that as evil but you can certainly place them in the ignorant at best group.

Posted by: Gandalf on May 6, 2009 at 9:29 AM | PERMALINK

George Will actually does know things about baseball, and writes about it compellingly. Men at Work is a good book. It's when he strays into politics that he makes an idiot of himself. He's a sportswriter who should stick to what he knows.

Posted by: Mike on May 6, 2009 at 9:30 AM | PERMALINK

I believe the question is, how much is George Will getting paid by the fossil fuel industry to lie for them? Anybody asked that one yet?

If former generals were paid to shill for the Bushco military machine, do we really think Will is trashing his own reputation without a quid pro quo (as he might say)? I sincerely doubt it.

Posted by: dalloway on May 6, 2009 at 9:32 AM | PERMALINK

From the 2001 article you cited: "Though the cars are no longer sold at a loss, profit from sales remains insufficient for Toyota to recoup its initial investment and development costs, General Manager Shigenobu Uchikawa said."

In other words, the Prius isn't (or wasn't, at the time of the article) profitable; it had not returned on its investment. Revenue from an individual auto may be returning more than the cost to build that individual auto, but that's not the same thing.

Geo. Will may well be full of crap, but you can't prove it if the articles you cite as 'proof' are directly contradictory to your point.

Posted by: TG on May 6, 2009 at 9:37 AM | PERMALINK

"Will isn't having a good year."

Actually, Will is having a great year. You just keep letting facts get in the way of your analysis of his columns and opinions.

Posted by: SadOldVet on May 6, 2009 at 9:37 AM | PERMALINK

It's just classic short-term vs. long-term planning. Toyota invested in hybrids, and now makes nice profits. Detroit invested in gas guzzlers which made a quick buck, and now they have to get bailed out by the government.

Posted by: Franklin on May 6, 2009 at 9:42 AM | PERMALINK

This isn't even "Shape of Earth: views differ." Will is loudly asserting something that isn't true, that a minute or two of casual research would have shown him isn't true, and that hasn't been true for what, eight years?

(And ABC is perfectly happy with giving him airtime to do this, just as the Post is perfectly happy giving him column-inches.)

Posted by: Please correct the error on May 6, 2009 at 9:43 AM | PERMALINK

What bothers me, is that George Stephanopoulos continues to keep Will as his "right hand man", yet never corrects his lazy counter part, nor even seems to mind the lies.
That says everything about Stephanopoulos that I need to know.

Posted by: about time on May 6, 2009 at 9:45 AM | PERMALINK

Just read the transcript and they talked about the car companies for quite awhile. Unfortunately most of the conversation devolved to Krugman re-emphasizing the point that Obama doesn't want to be in the car biz and isn't a socialist.

Will has part of a point, Toyota (and all car companies) would rather sell you a Tundra (or an F-150) pick up rather than a Prius (or a Focus) because they make more money on the big ticket vehicles. In the Big Threes' case they do lose money on small fuel efficient cars. With their legacy costs (mainly healthcare for retirees) they simply can't compete unless they sell a lot of Navigators and Escalades to offset the losses they take on Cobalts and Focuses.

The only thing that's gonna change that is taking the healthcare monkey off their backs and give that responsibility to the federal government. Like every other first world nation on the planet has done.

Posted by: markg8 on May 6, 2009 at 9:47 AM | PERMALINK

"What bothers me, is that George Stephanopoulos continues to keep Will as his "right hand man","

I doubt that it is Gerorge S. who keeps George W. as a 'right hand man'. In my book George W. is a cover ABC thinks is needed because for too many people on the right George S. is a 'Clinton-man'.

Posted by: SRW1 on May 6, 2009 at 9:52 AM | PERMALINK

Geo. Will may well be full of crap, but you can't prove it if the articles you cite as 'proof' are directly contradictory to your point. Posted by: TG on May 6, 2009

They aren't. And you clearly are not an economist. The definitions of profit and loss are not a bright-line as you appear to think.

If they are selling at an "incremental profit" or "marginal profit" -- which you concede is the case when you note that the next individual unit produced provides revenues above costs -- it is accurate to say that the Toyota makes a profit on Prius.

If, on an aggregate basis, those marginal profits have not yet covered the fixed or sunk start-up costs, it is also accurate to say that the Prius is not profitable.

The seemingly incompatible statements are both true because there are different but equally valid definitions of costs and profits. (Note also that one can likely argue about allocations to Prius start up costs from common overhead, and if marginal profits started in 2001, even in the aggregate Prius may be profitable by now).

In my personal view, each Prius sold is making a positive contribution against fixed costs, and therefore is profitable to make and sell.

Posted by: zeitgeist on May 6, 2009 at 10:04 AM | PERMALINK

From the 2001 article you cited: "Though the cars are no longer sold at a loss, profit from sales remains insufficient for Toyota to recoup its initial investment and development costs, General Manager Shigenobu Uchikawa said."

In other words, the Prius isn't (or wasn't, at the time of the article) profitable; it had not returned on its investment. Revenue from an individual auto may be returning more than the cost to build that individual auto, but that's not the same thing.


Umm....TG did you bother to look at the date of the article? It was Dec.19, 2001. At that time Toyota sold about 12,000 units a year. Toyota said at that time "Sales need to reach 50,000 to 100,000 units annually for the Prius to become truly profitable".
By 2004 they met that goal with 126,000 units and by 2007, Toyota was selling 281,000 units a year.

George Will is a raving, lying shill dressed in bow tie.

Posted by: palinoscopy on May 6, 2009 at 10:04 AM | PERMALINK

Will's Prius Problem isn't really that bad. In typical conservative fashion, he starts with the desired result and posits suspect evidence to make his case. In this instance, he at least used evidence that was factual at one point in time. Give the guy a break. It’s really hard work branding shit sandwiches as a rational diet.

Posted by: Chopin on May 6, 2009 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Will isn't having a good year.

The only difference with this year is that people are finally noticing what a hack Will is.

Just one data point: the "global cooling" column that drew everyone's notice earlier this year? That's at least the sixth time, going back to 1992, that he's written essentially that same column.

It's been just as much of a hack job every time, but for a variety of reasons, hardly anyone noticed until now.

Posted by: low-tech cyclist on May 6, 2009 at 10:07 AM | PERMALINK

George Swill, like most far right lunatics, has severe anger issues when it comes to the hybrids. I don't know why they do, but they do. Just look at the customer review section for the Camry Hybrid on Yahoo! Autos -- full of reviews in ALL CAPS with the lowest possible ratings.

George Swill wrote a column published April 12, 2007, called "Fuzzy Climate Math":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/11/AR2007041102109.html

.. in which he wrote "...in "dollars per lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles)."

That statement is on the face of it absurd. Even Gregg Easterbrook would probably realize that. But not our friend Swill. Like most far right lunatics, if the conclusion is something he likes he figures it must be true.

The reality is quite the opposite, and here is but one of the many responses to the Swill that George was pushing:

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

Posted by: Jupiter on May 6, 2009 at 10:07 AM | PERMALINK

Toyota's Prius is hardly the only hybrid out there. Honda has two hybrids currently (Civic hybrid and the Insight.) In addition, they have a fuel cell vehicle named the FCX Clarity. It's available only for lease right now in Southern California because that's the only place that has a number of hydrogen refueling stations. They are also working on developing a Home Energy Station that may eventually supply energy to the home while filling up the car right inside the garage.

I just recently leased a 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid (purchase price about $23,000), and am getting nearly 40 mpg on the street, even with short (under 7 miles) trips. I'm still driving on the same tank of gas they filled up when I leased it on April 2. I've driven about 330 miles and still have 1/4 tank left.

The American car companies lacked vision, and that's what's killed them.

Posted by: winddancer on May 6, 2009 at 10:13 AM | PERMALINK

Using a little more up to date information

You see that profit is not so easy to define.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/04/the_prius_insig.html

"Ask a Toyota or Honda executive how much their respective companies make per hybrid car and you’re unlikely to get a straight answer. "

"Also of note is that the new Prius may be less profitable than its smaller rival. The Nikkei adds that the gross profit margin on the latest Prius, which goes on sale in Japan in May for as little as $21,000, is likely to be in single digits this year. "

If you consider the fact that Toyota gains a lot of experience from making the Prius, you should think of each car as helping the R&D budget of Toyota.

It doesn't have to make a profit now if Toyota learns enough from this generation of cars to produce a better car next time.

My guess is that Toyota made a decent profit at $4 a gallon but is probably not making any money with gas at $2 a gallon.

Posted by: neil wilson on May 6, 2009 at 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

My 2001 Prius is still running fine at 186k miles. Gas mileage is a bit lower than when I first got it, but still a solid 44 MPG.

Our other car is a 2004 Prius - that gets 48-50 MPG. Toyota is going to be rolling out their 4rth generation hybrid next year.

Posted by: Butch on May 6, 2009 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

Steve Benen wrote: "Given George Will's errors on the environment lately ..."

They are not "errors". They are deliberate lies.

George Will lies -- for money.

It's really as simple as that.

Posted by: SecularAnimist on May 6, 2009 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

Will has been a muddle-headed corporate tool for his entire career. Truth ahs never much interested him and in his dotage he has apparently decided that verifying basic facts is too much work.

Why does ANYONE read anything he says, let alone actually take the man seriously? He's been an intellectually bankrupt lightweight for a long, long time.

Posted by: LL on May 6, 2009 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK
George Will actually does know things about baseball,

Well, for the 19th Century. He's not enamored of any stat dating from the 20th Century onward, and sabremetricians have gone far past where he's comfortable with.

Posted by: gwangung on May 6, 2009 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

neil wilson makes a good point: in fair accounting, do you allocate some of the Prius start-up costs to broader R&D? To marketing (they have gotten a ton of corporate good will)? To the Camry and Highlander hybrids that use the same technology (and I suspect as you go up in size and trim line the profit margin increases as well)? To the ability to "brand extend" (in 2010, Toyota will market a full line of Prius models as opposed to just one)?

and what of the social good of proving hybrids could be viable in both technical and market terms? my wife, for example, has a hybrid Camry that she paid more for just to support the market for hybrids. (as it turns out, she loves the car like no other car she had owned, and it gets 37-40 mpg, so in value terms it worked out just fine).

Posted by: zeitgeist on May 6, 2009 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

Don't get so down on George. After all, he received his most recent training at a RushBo seminar where it was taught to never tell anything but the truth - even if you have to make up your own facts.

Posted by: SadOldVet on May 6, 2009 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

Back when I was a lad, I used to think columnists for major papers were selected at least in part based on their unique knowledge, research skills, and attention to detail.

But lately I've noticed that Will is about as well informed as the average conservative poster on the WaPo's comments pages. He, like them, just repeats what he absorbs by osmosis, with no reflection. He keeps popping up these undigested hairballs of conservative memes.

Seriously, there are dozens of anonymous posters who could do what Will does just as well. Maybe they aren't as photogenic, though.

Posted by: Jon on May 6, 2009 at 10:55 AM | PERMALINK

winddancer, one point of contention: It's not that American car companies lack vision, it's just that they bury the vision and either buy off, discredit or otherwise "silence" the visionairies. They decided to do so until alternate means of fuel was an absolute necessity & didn't imagine (or care) that their inactivity would cause so much long-term damage. Maybe, now, they're starting to get it.

Posted by: slappy magoo on May 6, 2009 at 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

What my fellow citizens fail to understand is simply that whatever I say, if stated forcefully while belittling others and their opinions, is always the truth, regardless of facts or actual events.

Posted by: George Will on May 6, 2009 at 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

The reason that people like Will are conservatives is that they don't want things to change. You see life is easier if once you learn a fact it remains a fact. Oh, lets say for example..oh, I don't know.. yeah, that in 1997 Toyota sold its hybrid at a loss. Well, then that fact shouldn't change. It wouldn't be conservative. As far as Will is concerned: If it was good enough for us in 1997, well by golly, its good enough for us in 2009. ... and don't get me started on blue jeans..

Posted by: rege on May 6, 2009 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

If anyone believed Will any more, the statement would be actionable, but luckily for his pocketbook he has no credibility.

Posted by: paul on May 6, 2009 at 11:04 AM | PERMALINK

I've been a regular reader of Will since college days back in the 1970s, and one of the things I've noticed about his writing is that he tends to get locked into certain choice phrases and facts that he uses again and again, almost as a sort of shorthand. "Racial spoils system" is one of his favorites for describing affirmative action, for example. So, it's not surprising to me that once he has a fact in his head -- even an out of date one from 10 years ago -- he'd present it as if it was hot off the presses.

Posted by: Ted Frier on May 6, 2009 at 11:29 AM | PERMALINK

George Will is wrong just like President Obama. Obama, speaking about hybrid vehicles, said, “So, my job is to ask the auto industry, 'Why is it you guys can't do this?”

Those guys are doing it, making hybrid vehicles. The latest example is the Ford Fusion Hybrid with an Official EPA fuel-economy numbers of 41 mpg city, 36 mpg highway. Those are not bad numbers for a mid-size family sedan.

I’ve driven the Toyota Prius and most recently the Honda Insight. Both are nice small cars great for running around the city. I, like many others, live in the country requiring a lot of highway driving to get to the big city. The Ford Fusion looks like the t. The Ford Fusion looks like the type of vehicle for my future purchase.

What drives the Fusion Hybrid: 106-horsepower permanent magnet AC synchronous motor that can motor the Fusion up to 47 miles per hour without deferring to the traditional gas-drinking 156-horse 2.5-liter Atkinson cycle four-cylinder all coupled to a CVT.

Posted by: Roberto on May 6, 2009 at 11:40 AM | PERMALINK

Thanks for correcting that. Now will ABC?

Posted by: Hannah on May 6, 2009 at 11:56 AM | PERMALINK

That lieing S.O.B.

Posted by: Kurt on May 6, 2009 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

George Will actually does know things about baseball

Well, yeah, if you're into the dead-ball era. Will's ninety years behind the times where baseball is concerned.

Come to think of it, Will's pretty much against every innovation since 1920. It's the conservative in him.

Posted by: Screamin' Demon on May 6, 2009 at 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

It doesn't have to make a profit now if Toyota learns enough from this generation of cars to produce a better car next time.

Toyota licenses their hybrid system to Nissan and Ford. Those licenses have to be pure profit for Toyota.

I’ve driven the Toyota Prius and most recently the Honda Insight. Both are nice small cars great for running around the city. I, like many others, live in the country requiring a lot of highway driving to get to the big city. The Ford Fusion looks like the t. The Ford Fusion looks like the type of vehicle for my future purchase.

What drives the Fusion Hybrid: 106-horsepower permanent magnet AC synchronous motor that can motor the Fusion up to 47 miles per hour without deferring to the traditional gas-drinking 156-horse 2.5-liter Atkinson cycle four-cylinder all coupled to a CVT.

Did you know that Ford licenses their system from Toyota?

I think your perception of the Prius may have been overly influenced by your experience with the Insight. Honda took a different approach to hybrids and lost the market to Toyota. Kind of like Honda's first generation Odyssey, they missed the target. Honda has just come out with new hybrids that are closer to the Toyota solution.

Toyota uses the same hybrid system in all their hybrid cars. There are variations due to the size and power of the electric and gas motors, and of course the weight of the cars. A few years they created a 4WD version for the Highlander, and after some early problems seem to have the 4WD version working nicely in the '08 and '09 models.

The Fusion and Escape use the same system, as does the Altima. If you like those cars better than the Toyota hybrids, by all means buy them. I believe the federal tax credit is still available for the Nissan and a partial credit is still available for the Ford. But understand they are the same underlying systems.

Posted by: Jupiter on May 6, 2009 at 12:31 PM | PERMALINK

George Will, OWNED!!

Posted by: JKO on May 6, 2009 at 1:08 PM | PERMALINK
Those guys are doing it, making hybrid vehicles. The latest example is the Ford Fusion Hybrid with an Official EPA fuel-economy numbers of 41 mpg city, 36 mpg highway. Those are not bad numbers for a mid-size family sedan.

But not as good as the 2nd Gen (up through 2009) Prius, which is also a midsize vehicle but a 5-door hatchback instead of a sedan, and is rated 48 city/44 highway, and definitely not as good as the 3rd Gen (2010) Prius also a midsize hatchback, which is rated 50 mpg city/49 highway and not even as good, overall, as the 2nd Gen Honda Insight, again a midsize hatchback, rated at 40 city/43 highway.

I’ve driven the Toyota Prius and most recently the Honda Insight. Both are nice small cars great for running around the city.

Which Prius and which Insight? The 1st Gen (2000-2006) Insight was a subcompact 3-door hatchback. The 1st (export) Gen Prius was a compact 4-door sedan. The 2nd-3rd Gen Prius and 2nd Gen Insight are midsize hatchbacks, and certainly not "small cars".

Posted by: cmdicely on May 6, 2009 at 1:36 PM | PERMALINK

George Will never lets the facts get in the way of a good (false) story!

Posted by: Tom on May 6, 2009 at 1:47 PM | PERMALINK

It is clear that George Will has joined hands with Rush and Sean - he will say anything to smear President Obama and the Dems. Too bad he will be remembered as an arrogant, pompous know-it-all who apparently knows very little about the new world in which we live.

Posted by: susan harris on May 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

Oddly enough, I think the company that has got the hybrid car right is GM, with the Chevy Volt.

Unlike the Prius, Insight and Fusion which are "parallel hybrids" where the internal combustion engine and the electric motor both drive the wheels, the Volt is a "series hybrid" which is 100 percent electric drive, with the internal combustion engine functioning only as a generator.

This is good for several reasons. It makes more efficient use of the internal combustion engine. And the drive system is essentially identical to that of a fully electric car, the only difference being the power source. Pure electric drive is simpler and less costly to implement and maintain than the parallel-drive system used in current hybrids.

The Volt points to a future in which modular electric-drive cars based on industry-standard interfaces and form factors (like personal computers) might have swappable power supplies -- the same car could be sold with a battery pack module, or with a liquid-fueled-generator-and-fuel-tank module, a fuel cell module, etc.

Electric cars have the potential to be a disruptive technology that will completely transform the automobile industry, much as personal computers transformed the data processing industry. They are far simpler and less costly to maintain than ICE-powered cars (an internal combustion engine has hundreds of moving parts, an electric motor has ONE). They can be modular, opening the industry to third-party component designer/manufacturers and system integrators who will assemble "clone" electric cars from parts (even local auto shops could easily do this, just as small local system integrators put together custom-built "clone" PCs). And they can be easily upgraded as new technologies become available -- upgrade to a new technology battery or more efficient electric motor, and your electric car gets more range.

Posted by: SecularAnimist on May 6, 2009 at 2:23 PM | PERMALINK

I doubt that it is Gerorge S. who keeps George W. as a 'right hand man'. In my book George W. is a cover ABC thinks is needed because for too many people on the right George S. is a 'Clinton-man'.

Seriously? After ten plus years? That knife Stepho stuck in Clinton's back is so old it has rusted clean through. How many Sunday show hours of kissing up does a man have to do make the Beltway accept him? What else has he got to sell?

Posted by: Midland on May 6, 2009 at 2:58 PM | PERMALINK

"They are not "errors". They are deliberate lies.
George Will lies -- for money.
It's really as simple as that."
SecularAnimist at 10:31 AM

Stole my thunder, SA . Shoulda known you'd beat me to it. Yes, George Swill is a liar, a professional liar. He knows exactly what he's doing, and he's recompensed nicely for it. I used to think Mr. Benen should just call him out on it, but painting him with the clown brush works so much better. Howzabout a lying clown? George Will, the pathetically mewling lying clown? Look at his sad, lying face - so sad, and amusing at the same time.

Posted by: Conrads Ghost on May 6, 2009 at 3:06 PM | PERMALINK

George Will repeats the claim in Thursday's Washington Post!

link

"what Toyota does with the Prius: [is] Sell its hybrid without significant, if any, profit"

Posted by: Quiddity on May 7, 2009 at 2:33 AM | PERMALINK

Put another way, he's a prostitute: paid to pretend.

Posted by: daphne on May 7, 2009 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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