He meant to say "last time I checked," and hoped that nobody would bother to ask, "when WAS the last time you checked?" since the answer was "a dozen years ago."
Of course, that's granting Will the benefit of the doubt that he actually "checks" things; his recent blatherings have indicated otherwise.

No, please DON'T stick to baseball. Will's tedious writing on baseball is a stain on a fine literary tradition. People who like George Will on baseball have never read Roger Angell.

"stick to baseball" - Ah, the tales learned at the knees of Abner Doubleday.

Yesterday, on your other Will thread about the Prius gaffe, a poster said he had bought a Ford Fusion, instead of a Prius, because he needed more power, as he lived in the country. In the Oregonian on Saturday past, there was an AP article about Fusion sales helping Ford move past Toyota in the market place. There were possibly some sales due to customer fears of warranty problems with GM and Chrysler, as well, but, new Fusion sales have reached a record level of 18,321. Yes, there is a demand for fuel efficient vehicles.

Most smart people, when shown facts that prove them wrong, do not continue to say the things that were proven untrue. I wonder why this doesn't apply to republicans.

George needs to drop the bow tie, and get himself a nice comfortable pair of jeans. I think he's been suffering from a terminal wedgie.

Americans love real cars with power, not foreign imports that run on flashlight batteries. BHO should be passing legislation to prevent foreign car companies from undercutting American companies. But that's probably too much to expect from a president who uses dijon mustard.

George Will just can't seem to stay away from environmental policy, no matter how much trouble it gets him in.

Of course this is the whole problem. What you write here is entirely wrong. Will hasn't gotten into "trouble" because he faces no consequences for making big mistakes or telling out right lies. The establishment he is part of ensures that this is the case. He keeps his job. The Post issues no correction and next week he will be on the Sunday talk shows dispensing his unique "wisdom" same as before. If you want to understand how he can be so brazenly wrong and continue to spout discredited "facts," you need to start there.

Hey Al ....Buy anything at Walmart (China's supplier to the world) Just askin'

Maybe Will should stick to baseball?

Re-read the article, "Baseball's Judicial Branch" by George F. Will and you will notice that in the article George F. Will is the Umpire and politics is the game of baseball.

The last sentence was an apology for the climate change bullshit and a work of art in public masturbation, "An umpire can fail once in a high-stakes moment and be remembered for that forever. It is amazing how rarely they fail as they strive not to be noticed in their pursuit of unobtrusive perfection."

Seriously read that article again. I think George F. Will should just go away.

George won't be buying jeans...they're made of DENIM! And, Patrick, the definition of REPUBLICAN includes delusional, makes things up, and suffers from projection...to name just a few things...It is so long past time for Stephanopolus to get a NEW ROUND TABLE and dump Cokie, George, Newt, Peggy...how about some REAL PEOPLE out there who might actually put a realistic spin on the world...I want to know the salaries and living arrangements of these PAID FOR PUNDITS who think they can relate to the "ordinary people"!

The problem is that Will doesn't really get "into trouble" except among the fevered swamps of we DFH's. This is a classic example. After spouting the lie about hybrids on Sunday on TV, you would think that he might have been at least remotely aware that he was wrong. And yet he repeats the lie in his column today. Clearly there are no consequences for lying for Will.

(Note that in the same column, he urges people to buy Fords so that the GM/Chrysler bailout will fail, showing that government intervention doesn't work.)

Talk about hoping for failure.

Hi Al. I'm an American, I like high mileage cars, fast German motorcycles and no condiments.

Al, why do you hate America?

I don't believe H&T sell that many gas thirsty pickup trucks. Pickup trucks are just a percentage of all vehicles. Looks like Will has been off the tracks for a while now. Al,if I could find any car that runs on flashlight batteries you better believe I would buy it, thanks for joining 2009

You just beat me to it, Brent, on the "getting into trouble" issue.

But I hope Steve, or someone else focuses on the equally or even more outrageous point of Will's urging people to buy Fords to so GM will fail and prove that government intervention doesn't work.

George -- if you're so convinced that the GM/Chrysler plan won't work, why do you need to urge people to buy Fords?

Al, it's good to know you are in favor of shutting down the Honda and Toyota factories in Alabama, Kentucky, Texas, West Virginia, Mississippi, and Ohio who are undercutting American manufacturers with cheap cars that run on flashlight batteries. Thank you.

This goes back to my stated axiom. Conservatives and republicans have always lied and obfuscated like George Will's latest buffoonery. But now we can instantly fact check these lying douche bags ,so they can't use the same tired old playbook. Oh wait, they can try to.

I wouldn't trust Will to tell me the time of day, let alone baseball.

The man's proven himself completely devoid of intelligence and/or ethics (we know which it is, I suppose. He's not an idiot).

Ah, Al, keep on hummin' in your Hummer - Kinda funny about that Dijon mustard, Al - Grey Poupon, the inferior Dijon mustard is made in the US of A. For great Dijon, try Roland's from France. Geez, Al, after tasting that, you might even change to a Peugeot.

BHO should be passing legislation to prevent foreign car companies from undercutting American companies.

I am of the mind that Al is a parody troll, but if not, what of "free markets", Al?

The one thing Will and I do agree on: if you are going to buy from Detroit, buy Ford.

Not to show that government bailouts don't work, but to reward Ford for actually having a little more vision than the other two. Chrysler has only 3 models across all of its line that get 30 mpg or better - and it so happens they are all lousy cars. Bill Ford embraced the greening of the auto industry shortly after Toyota proved the Prius could sell, years before GM was willing to admit it (and most of GMs "green" moves have been the relatively bogus "FlexFuel" cars which allows GM to claim to be responsible knowing full well that the overwhelming number of drivers with Flex Fuel Yukons and Escalades are not filling them with E85.)

Ford was reasonably quick to license the tech for the Hybrid Escape, and cut back on its biggest guzzlers. And they took responsible steps to manage their own debt so they would not be in need of a bailout.

So yes, buy Ford - just not for the reasons Will wants you to.

When any complex innovative product is designed, there are hefty non-recurring engineering costs, and it takes a while for the kinks to be worked out of the manufacturing process. The result is that a company almost always loses money at first. But if the product is a success, those expenses are already in the past, and the engineers figure out how to streamline the process, until the company's making substantial money on each car. Meanwhile, the competing auto companies, like Ford, need to pay Toyota to license the patents. By now, the Prius has been a huge financial success for Toyota.

will's essential problem is that he keeps believing rove's theorem works. damn, he keeps sayin' stuff that is suppose to be the new reality because we make our own, and it keeps not happening. wtf?

perhaps that lesson from pomo philos is a little more complicated than the neocons thunk. but georgie will never know.

reminds me of the doc who saw nietzsche first after he went insane in milan. guy's name was dr. wille. can you imagine, the now-psychotic philosopher of the will to power being examined by some dude named dr. will?

that scene play-acted by a couple of little lord fauntleroys reminds me of a george will column.

Hang on- Japanese corporations understand long-term thinking? Okay, how can we get some of these guys in our industries?

Maybe Will should stick to baseball?
—Steve Benen 9:25 AM Permalink

I've been saying that for years.

George's granny.

George Will is a deliberate, calculating liar.

George Will is paid to lie.

George Will lies -- for money.

It's really as simple as that.

BHO should be passing legislation to prevent foreign car companies from undercutting American companies. But that's probably too much to expect from a president who uses dijon mustard.
Posted by: Al on May 7, 2009 at 9:36 AM

The funny commercials ("Pardon me, but do you have any Grey Poupon?") portray Grey Poupon Dijon mustard as an upscale brand, which is amusing considering Dijon mustard"s humble beginnings.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-dijon-mustard.htm

Will's best work has been on denim.

I have a question that underlies Will's proposed argument.

Why does it matter EVEN IF Toyota sells the Prius at a loss (which they don't)? If the company can turn a profit overall, what the hell does a loss on one product matter?

There is a reason that stores put the milk in the back. It's not to make you carry a heavy item the farthest and its not because milk brings in the largest profit (I truly have no idea if it does). It's because the customer has to walk through the entire store to get to the product that they need and might buy some stuff that they want that the store turns a bigger profit on.

I thought that was called capitalism. George Will hates capitalism!!!!

Plus, as has been mentioned, if that technology can then be applied to other vehicles, then the overall vehicle portfolio gains in higher efficiency and the gas guzzlers slowly fade to the background to be bought by those that NEED that type of vehicle.

Also, notice how Will never mentions that fuel would cost significantly more if it were not subsidized by the government, thus making the cars that he wants to build be much less attractive and affordable.

George Will's wife is a lobbyist for the Japanese auto makers. You would think he has access to the facts about the Prius.

I suspect he is lying.

A question never answered by the wanker is, if Toyota is making no money on the hybrid (or are losing money) why the bloody hell are they selling it?! Are they hoping a hybrid owner will come back and buy a gas guzzling truck afterwards? That makes no sense! Conservatives never really think these things through, do they?

Will should definitely stick to baseball. That he's a Cubs fan demonstrates what a loser he is.

@ Granny Will

-Not to mention that "Grey Poupon" is a good ol' US of A brand made by your good friends at Kraft. It's about as ferrin as Hagen Dazs, in fact--both being sterling examples of hucksterism in the best American tradition.

Really makes you wonder why *does* Al hate America so much?

There's no way of measuring if Toyota is making any money on the Prius, but there's good news for those of us willing to ignore the left's scare campaign and start heating our homes with coal:

http://www.slagheapofspin.com/shoveling_lies

there's good news for those of us willing to ignore the left's scare campaign and start heating our homes with coal.
Posted by: MatthewRQuarreler on May 7, 2009 at 11:34 AM

LMAO. Spamming spoogebucket!

Stupid, too.

There's no way they're making $3000 on a car that they sell for $20,000. The auto industry doesn't work that way. Here's a more likely explanation:
The article mentions that Toyota makes a $3000 profit on all its hybrids. Toyota makes more hybrids than just the Prius. It wouldn't surprise me if the profit on a Prius was around $1000 and the Highlander and Lexus hybrids pulled the average up considerably. The Lexus GS Hybrid starts at over $50,000 and the LS Hybrid _starts_ at over $100,000! The mid-range package for the Highlander Hybrids costs about $40,000. If they sell 25,000 "other" hybrids at a profit of $5 - 15k each, that would move the average profit for hybrids up considerably.
A $1000 profit on a small car is pretty high, by the way. Last I checked (haha), Ford makes about that much on the (non-hybrid) Focus.

The great thing about Will's wrongness is how often it is paired with his completely unwarranted arrogance. A snide statement like:

So as an auto executive, he's off to a rocky start.

is incredible when you consider how completely incorrect he is. A basic sense of pride for most people would prevent them from even trying to pull off that sort of smugness without triple checking their facts. Will just pounds ahead without a moment's hesitation. Its pathological.

GreyGuy - I thought the milk in the back, was more about refrigeration architecture than sales, but I suppose YLSNED.

In the NYT this morning, David Brooks wrote, "... the difference between a reporter and a columnist. One exists to live up to the impartial standards of the profession, while the other is just about personal views." This moment of honesty by Brooks certainly fits Will: professional standards of journalism don't apply to him, it's just about his personal opinion, well founded or not.

Will's under the impression that Prius is like EV1: a show car to demonstrate technical prowess or social-mindedness, but never really intended to make money.

But there's an easy way to tell the difference between a show car and a real production model: the manufacturer will advertise the real car and push as many out to dealers as they can. They will try to grow sales.

A show car, on the other hand, will have a very restrictive distribution channel and few will be put out (see EV1 and, ominously, the Volt's current distribution plan for examples).

Prius succeeded in burnishing Toyota's reputation when very few were sold. If it weren't making money, Toyota would have no incentive to keep doubling production, having already accomplished its goal.

The EV1 program lasted three years and produced a lot of publicity but few cars. Prius has been around more than ten and hundreds of thousands are on the roads. Toyota is planning to expand model offerings.

On the face of it, Will's claim doesn't carry water. Th thing speaks for itself.

Al says:
"Americans love real cars with power, not foreign imports that run on flashlight batteries..."

Al, have you ever driven a Prius? Maybe you should give it a try before you shoot your mouth off. It's got more power and far better handling that equivalent American cars, and as you would expect, it's better built.

And, in case you think a Prius owner doesn't know anything about performance, our other cars include a Honda S2000 that will whip the butt off of almost any American car, and a heavily modified WRX which held a couple of canyon driving records for several years.

I thought that was called capitalism. George Will hates capitalism!!!!

Deep down, George Will doesn't give a shit about capitalism or democracy because he's an elitist. The current incarnation of capitalism tends to keep the top on top and the bottom on the bottom, so he's cool with it. Democracy is useful as a stick to beat other people with, and if it's inconvenient we can pull a Bush v. Gore and fix everything back the way it should be.

If the US of A suddenly became a communist state tomorrow, but kept the same Georgetown cocktail party crowd in their elite positions, they'd all be elbowing for the front row in the May Day parade.

As an MBA-type, I would question why would Toyota build so many Prius and other hybrid vehicles if they are losing money on each one.

Now, the way Will phrases it, it doesn't even look like he's saying the fixed costs (development and setup) are the problem, but the actual variable cost (time and materials) of each vehicle produced.

If that's the case, there's only a few reasons to make so many.

1. Toyota management likes losing money. If this is the case, they must consider themselves failures for being the automobile manafacturer with the highest net income in the world. In any case, they are probably hippies who just want to screw honest American pickup truck drivers and their own shareholders to further their environmental fantasies.

2. They believe that they can build a market for these vehicles over time, and as scale economies kick in and variable costs drop they can make these vehicles profitable.

3. They believe that oil prices will shoot back up and that at that time they will be well positioned to own what will then be a profitable market.

4. Will is wrong, and they are making a reasonable profit right now (as the facts of the case seem to be.)

Will's phrasing seems to imply reason #1, but I think reason would suggest reasons 2-4 are the only rational possibilities.

Toyota probably started out in this selling hybrids at a loss, when you consider research and development costs, building the plants, and low scale economies. However, they planned and invested for the future, taking some of their significant operating profit and using it to ensure that Toyota would be at the forefront of an emerging market that one day might be the dominant market.

I fail to see how this is anything but the kind of business practice I'd like to see emulated in the U.S. a hell of a lot more often.

I wondered what Will could have been talking about when he made that comment on This Week. Why on earth would Toyota sell Priuses at a loss? How could that be a feasible business model?

Loss leaders are sometimes used in business, but that couldnt realistically apply to car manufacturers. Nobody is going to go to buy a Prius and make an impulse decision to pick up a truck or two while they're at the dealership.

Did he think that the PR value of selling Priuses at a loss would cause them to sell more trucks than they would have otherwise? What did he think Toyota's angle was?

It's not at all surprising to learn that Will was wrong about the profitability of Priuses. I just wonder how he ever could have possibly thought he was right.

The second part of Will's original claim, that Toyota's sales of gas-guzzling pickups support losses from Priuses, is wrong for two reasons. One is the reason we already know -- Priuses are profitable. The other is that Toyota actually made a very bad bet on full-sized pickup trucks. They spent $1 billion to build a plant in San Antonio to build a butched-up version of the large Tundra truck, which had been selling in very small numbers compared to Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Since that plant went online, Toyota has failed to make its sales projections on the Tundra -- they're falling way, way short in the current year. So Prius profits are actually funding Toyota's failed attempts to make money on large pickups.

I have a better idea. Maybe George Will should stick it up his ass. That is, if he can get it by the stick that's already up there.

That he's a Cubs fan demonstrates what a loser he is

I can't stand Cubs fans self-mythology of the Loveable Loser watching games in their shitty, smelly old ballpark, but that's really harsh. :-)

And so what if the unlikely event occurred that the profits on the gas guzzlers actually were greater than the hybrid and Mr. Will were actually telling the truth? A non-issue. That's the past, and only the nimble will survive with gyrating fuel prices. Profits as a corporate motivator and shareholder report card are a poor, poor excuse for a lack of vision and responsible strategic decision making.

Rather than call Mr. Will a liar, perhaps we should look at this little bacterium as a means of understanding the disease.

Will doesn't even drive his servants drive him . He is a snob . His picture is next to the term Pantywaist in the dictionary .

Ultimately, the Japanese automakers profits from hybrid cars can't be completely verified.

That should be a caution right there. How about the claim that Toyota sells more of the gas-guzzling pickups than it sells the thrifty Priuses (Prii?), or the claim that it has a larger margin on them?

In the U.S., sales of Priuses plummeted in late 2008, and buyers were able to get discounts of several thousand dollars each on them, compared to summer's price. If the margin in the summer was (unverifiably) around $3000, then somebody has been losing a lot of money selling them since then.

Will knows nothing about baseball either! He is just an overeducated moron!

Also from Will's article:

At the Academy of Obama, professors and others devise plans for extracting a new and improved automobile industry from a semi-sort-of-bankruptcy arrangement that -- if it survives judicial scrutiny; that is not certain -- will give the United Auto Workers 39 percent of General Motors, with the government owning 50 percent. During future contract negotiations, will the union's adversary be an administration that the union helped to put in power?
...
The UAW will own 55 percent of Chrysler, so perhaps the union will sit on both sides of the table in negotiations. They should go smoothly, although the UAW may think it has made sufficient concessions, such as the one that says henceforth overtime pay will not begin until the worker has toiled 40 hours in a week.

These comments are really more important than the unverifiable claim that Toyota might at last be earning a profit on its Priuses.

So by Will's logic, any time a company funds R&D out of current profits, it is throwing money away.

Which may help explain why US auto companies ended up in the ditch, since they operated under the same principle for many years. But Japanese firms have always done things a little differently.

Al: Americans love real cars with power, not foreign imports that run on flashlight batteries.

No doubt! At least I love the LS3, that's for sure. But while we Americans love looking at cars with big roaring V-8s, we don't love them enough to actually buy them, or else the manufacturers of the Hemi (Chrysler) and the magnificent LS3 (GM FTW) wouldn't be on the brink of bankruptcy right now.

Here's what Americans are actually buying. Of the ten best selling models in America, three were the Detroit Three's full-sized V-8 powered trucks; the other seven were:

Ford Focus (2.0 L I-4)

Chevrolet Impala (3.5 L V-6, 3.9 L V-6, and a handful of SS models with 5.3 L V-8)

Nissan Altima (2.5 L I-4, 3.5 L V-6)

Toyota Corolla (1.8 L I-4, a few XRS models with 2.4 L I-4)

Honda Accord (2.4 L I-4, 3.5 L V-6)

Honda Civic (1.8 L I-4, 2.0 L I-4)

Toyota Camry (2.4 L I-4, 3.5 L V-6)