I keep hearing almost a schoolyard chant of "Nancy Pelosi knew". I just don't understand why she would know if none of the republican members of congress did not know. Also they seem to be holding her responsible, my question is 'could she have stopped it?' I did not know that she had that much power at that time. Boehner has put his 2 cents in today saying the CIA would never mislead a member of congress, have they not been misleading everyone for 8 years?

Steve, it seems to me that to be an American means choosing moral standards over "efficacy." That doesn't mean not measuring efficacy. It means not dealing with the two issues on the same level.

BTW, in an interesting discussion around these issues this morning, Michael Walzer pointed out that all governments prosecuting and jailing their predecessors for crimes committed have been governments of countries whose company we wouldn't want to be in! Even for someone who'd like to see Bush and Cheney wind up in the stocks, this was an attention-getting argument!

"We're not going to use the Bush/Cheney torture techniques anymore."

Maybe not in this administration. But Obama won't be president forever, and the next time we get a Republican this monster will come back, unless someone has driven a stake through its heart.

Am I the only one who suspects that Cheney named those specific documents because he knew they were tied up in lawsuits and couldn't be released?

"since the United States is going to start following the law again, "it worked" isn't going to cut it in the future, no matter what's on these classified documents"

This statement by Steve Benen is patently and blatantly false!

If there are not investigations and prosecutions as warranted by the investigations, there is an extremely high degree of probability that these crimes will happen again.

Without investigations and prosecutions of crimes, there is no reason for current and future administrations to obey the laws. Without investigations and prosecutions, there is the greatly increase probability of the mindset that 'if the president orders it, it must be legal'. Without investigations and prosecutions, why should any Amerikan president believe that there is anything that they cannot get away with - except for getting a blow job.

Cheney knew this going in...he knew the documents couldn't be released.

Truth Commission.

Huh? Wouldn't just releasing the documents resolve any FOIA request for them that is in the courts?

We all know these things...the problem is how do we get anything done about it. Why is it the American people can be held hostage by a minority in the senate?

It is time to stop ignoring what needs to be done so we aren't prevented from taking to the streets by economic conditions. Do the dems really want a filibuster proof majority?

America's rule of law and government by the majority is highly questionable.

neill to cheney:
god damn your shit-filled soul to hell.

Am I the only one who suspects that Cheney named those specific documents because he knew they were tied up in lawsuits and couldn't be released?

No.

"....since the United States is going to start following the law again, "it worked" isn't going to cut it in the future..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, the very essence of the nation has changed recently. Gone are any shred of the tendencies we exhibited in decimating Native Americans. So too the vestiges of slavery, lynchings, child labor, medical experimentation on minorities and the disabled, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's as if the raping and plundering of Central America never happened. Yes, all our citizens and those we elect can be counted on from here on out to adhere to a strict moral code of empathy and goodwill towards our fellow man. If only those poor, dead bastards buried outside the walls of Abu Ghraib knew they were the last people this nation will ever mistreat and kill without good reason. Someone should at least let their families know. Might take the sting out of it all.

You gotta give Cheney credit for chutzpah for demanding the Obama release docs that he himself actively fought being released when he was in office.

BTW, in an interesting discussion around these issues this morning, Michael Walzer pointed out that all governments prosecuting and jailing their predecessors for crimes committed have been governments of countries whose company we wouldn't want to be in! Even for someone who'd like to see Bush and Cheney wind up in the stocks, this was an attention-getting argument!

Uh, maybe because only crappy countries have been the ones to engage in torture, as opposed to the rest of the civilized world. Of course, that won't stop the wingnuts from latching onto this argument, or the media from giving them all the attention they want.

The Bush administration adopted the position that it would release as few documents as possible. Funny how Cheney is now being hurt by the very secrecy he strongly insisted on when he was in office.

I don't know if politics was a factor -- I rather doubt it -- but Cheney and his allies are likely to disappointed if and when these documents are declassified. White House officials who've seen the materials have explained that they don't help Cheney's case, and Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), just yesterday, said he's seen the documents and Cheney's just wrong.

This reiterates a case I made yesterday in another post - that Cheney knows there isn't documetnation that will strengthen his case, that he purposefully requested documents tied up in litigation, and that it's a political stunt to create talking points that don't exist to rally support for his own self-serving reasons. He's not stupid, and the fact that the requested documentation is tied up in litigation points to a very calculated public charade.

I still believe that A) he's having a hard time adapting to not being in office B) he'll create as many talking points as possible to slow down the current administration's agenda and to distract the public.

I'm not sure what his game is, but I bet the reasons are more simple than they appear. My guess is that he simply likes to play political games. He probably also feels slighted that he was told to not make any comments last election cycle because he is viewed as polticial poison - betrayed by his own party that used to put him up on a pedastal. I'm sure he feels the current GOP has no leadership and that he's the man with backbone for the job. It's all pure narcissism.

Torture works like a charm in Cheney's world. He and Bush tortured the USA for 8 years. They got everything they wanted and left a deeply scarred and broken shell in it's place. But it might be too impolite to call it torture, so Enhanced Governance will have to do.

BTW, in an interesting discussion around these issues this morning, Michael Walzer pointed out that all governments prosecuting and jailing their predecessors for crimes committed have been governments of countries whose company we wouldn't want to be in!

I guess that makes the state of Illinois a banana republic, then, considering that 4 out of the last 5 governors have been prosecuted for corruption. I didn't know that they weren't part of the United States, but if Michael Walzer says so, they must not be.

"He's almost certainly wrong, but since the United States is going to start following the law again, "it worked" isn't going to cut it in the future, no matter what's on these classified documents."

Yes but you KNOW the GOP is going to start the "they're afraid to let the truth out" meme and drag it out for months to come!

Ditto Mick... with a touch more re: Cheney control issues

Why didn't Cheney just leak the memos to Judith Miller back when he had the chance?

You are really naively optimistic if you think we are not going to use the torture techniques again. The next time we have a crisis or a president like Bush there will be no stopping it. By not holding those who perpetrated these crimes, including Bush and Cheney, accountable, we pretty much guarantee that they will be used again. Why wouldn't they - if there are no consequences?

Am I the only one who wonders if Cheney intentionally created and left behind documents which would "prove" his case, knowing that he would write a memoir and be in the position to ask for said documents? He certainly had time to see where things were going long before he actually left office. After all, this is the same group that fed information to the New York Times, then repeated that information publically as if the New York Times was the source.

Am I the only one who wonders if Cheney intentionally created and left behind documents which would "prove" his case, knowing that he would write a memoir and be in the position to ask for said documents?

I wouldn't put it past him but, let's face it, his last attempt at forgery didn't turn out so well, so I'm not terribly worried.

"since the United States is going to start following the law again, "it worked" isn't going to cut it in the future, no matter what's on these classified documents"

Up until now, Benen, I assumed you were an American citizen. Tell me, what country do you live in?

You've got a lot to learn about political reality in the United States.