Why do Republicans hate our prison guards?

In minor defense of Harry Reid (not that I'm excusing it), I think he is saying something different.

I think his point is that if we bring them to the United States, and then they get sentenced to 10 years in jail, what happens when they get out? Suddenly they are on American Soil and they are afforded any rights associated with that.

The answer isn't "Nobody escapes", but we already have this issue with foreign nationals that commit crimes on U.S. soil.

What did Green Arrow do? and why is he working with the Joker and Lex Luthor? Free Green Arrow!

Really DR? I didn't realize the U.S. was in the habit of letting foreign nationals convicted of crimes remain in the States after they've served their time. I'm pretty sure we just end up deporting them.

This has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the fact that these people will no longer be off the radar. They wont be "unpeople". They will be on US soil, subject to jurisprudence and due process. Thats what is feared.

I, for one, would respect terrorists a lot more if they succeeded in escaping from prison.

Kinda like the winners of "The Running Man."

Suppose, in some bizarre scenario, one of these "terrorists" managed to break out from Florence. What would an Arabic-speaking Middle Eastern dude in an orange jump suit in the middle of the southern Colorado desert do to bring the U.S. to its knees?

I'd be much more worrried if one of our home-grown bad guys escaped, since he might actually be capable of causing some mayhem.

How can you guarantee that a license-plate-stamping machine won't be used for making WMD?

It would be nice if one of these facility wardens chimed in. Is the SuperMax secure enough to thwart an outside plot to bust these guys out? I would think we would sprinkle them around, but no one has really said what the plan is. Are they going to Federal facility or a military facility, what sort of security concerns are these guys ? What happens when one of these guys get knifed in the shower ? I know they aren't going to be in general population, but neither was Dahlmer and he didn't make it.

To date Obama's plan is shut down Gitmo, which is great, but damn, is it too much to ask for some details. Obama wants $80M to move these guys, why, that $320,000 a prisoner.

But, I always thought people in the GOP are tough manly men who don't eat arugula who defend freedom. Now they are crying like pansies because suspected terrorists are going to be held inside maximum security prisons inside the USA? What?

And just how fucking dumb do they think the American people are? Does anyone really think we are going to let them roam freely in some lily white suburban neighborhood? I swear to the Gods, it's another version "Where da white women at?" all over again.

These detainees are the weak-minded sheep who can be ginned-up into action because they believe the world just don't make sense no more: Afghan-hillbillies.

Not that I don't appreciate a hillbilly's talents when it comes to whittlin' or moonshine runnin', but there ain't too many of them masterminds there at Guantanamo. Maybe we're giving these guys a little too much "respect."

I escaped from an OfficeMax once.

@DR -

We have that same problem NOW with all the murders, rapists, child molesters and such that are released at the end of their sentences. This is not a new issue.

Besides if these guys are as bad as Bush/Cheney would have us believe than they would most likely get life without parole.

Besides that wasn't Harry 'I just want Dick to like me' Reid's argument. He said Amercians don't want the Gitmo detainees released on US soil now. He echoed the Republican talking point exactly.

Why do we keep him around again?

The Republicans-and-Reid-etc.-as-sniveling-pantywaists aspect of this is interesting, but even more intriguing is the GOP/GOP Lite's rush to ascribe superhuman powers to terrorists. They become quite second-grade boy about this: "And then, and then he jumped over the 30 foot wall and then, and then he smashed the head of the guard and, and he ran away at like 100 miles an hour!"

I don't know whether this awed, reverential panic of the GOP's is the result of terrorists' ability to operate solo or in small groups and pass seemingly unnoticed among others, a currently record high paranoia and xenophobia among Republicans, something totally different or a combination of these factors. I just know it's embarrassing to watch. In all my reading, etc., I have not picked up on any similar tendency among Americans to see the, say, Nazis or Japanese as comic book supervillains.

I think his point is that if we bring them to the United States, and then they get sentenced to 10 years in jail, what happens when they get out? Suddenly they are on American Soil and they are afforded any rights associated with that.

Foreign nationals who committed crimes aren't released back into the United States. They're deported back to their home countries. That includes otherwise perfectly legal immigrants who have committed crimes as minor as DUI or shoplifting.

I suppose you could argue that it would be bad for, say, a Saudi terrorist to be deported back to Saudi Arabia, given that country's record of supporting terrorism, but they're still going to have to figure out how to get back into the US from overseas.

edmund dantes,
Yes, you and I agree on that point. My point is the argument is focusing on "Are we safe when they are in our prisons" when that isn't what Reid et al are talking about.

I could be wrong (and frequently am). It's so hard to tell considering how crappy a job the press is doing of covering this.

I escaped from an OfficeMax once.

And quite right, too. Staples has better sales and free delivery.

Torture as pure politics. (Just finished hearing the President speak.)

The President wants it both ways: to be able to bash Bush and the Republicans over Gitmo and torture without ever changing the actual policy. It is as if Obama is trying to milk the clock -- hoping he can go four years in this little bubble that was created when he was elected.

It won't work. Gitmo and torture without consequences will only perpetuate lawlessness. At some point Democrats are going to have to decide whether they are against torture and Bush-era policies because they make good politics or because they are part of the set of values they actually hold dear.

My own sense is the Democrats hold no values dear and hence will be happy to maintain Gitmo forever, or until voters start to turn away from them. But with Republicans continuing to implode, I fear things will remain as they are for a long time.

I think his point is that if we bring them to the United States, and then they get sentenced to 10 years in jail, what happens when they get out?

The same thing that happens to other foreign nationals after they are released from prison: they're deported.

Suddenly they are on American Soil and they are afforded any rights associated with that.

Yes, they'll just be chock-a-block with all the rights enjoyed by dark-skinned non-citizen foreign nationals with no money and a felony criminal record....

What happens when one of these guys get knifed in the shower ?

Depends on where they get knifed. If it hits a vital organ or causes massive bleeding and they don't get medical attention in time, I suppose they'll die. If not, they'll recover, though perhaps with some disability or loss of motor function.

In all my reading, etc., I have not picked up on any similar tendency among Americans to see the, say, Nazis or Japanese as comic book supervillains.

I see your reading has not included Captain America's many encounters with the Red Skull, then.

The President wants it both ways: to be able to bash Bush and the Republicans over Gitmo and torture without ever changing the actual policy.

If you have any evidence at all Obama is continuing Bush's torture policy, by all means cite it.

I see your reading has not included Captain America's many encounters with the Red Skull, then.

What, no love for the Silver Samurai?

If you have any evidence at all Obama is continuing Bush's torture policy, by all means cite it.

I understand your point. But didn't Bush say, very plainly, "we do not torture".

Now we have a President who states the same, says he will close Gitmo, and then has taken no action to make sure that Gitmo will close, and those responsible for torture will be brought to justice.

Is torture still being done by the military and the CIA? I do not know, it is too early to tell. But do you believe there is no chance that America is now not torturing detainees?

Time will reveal all. But for now, I see very little action on the part of Democrats and the Obama administration to live up to the promises made last fall.

I see your reading has not included Captain America's many encounters with the Red Skull, then.

What, no love for the Silver Samurai?

Why I love Democratic men: y'all are such dorks.

Is torture still being done by the military and the CIA? I do not know, it is too early to tell.

Then you admit that your assertion that Obama is continuing Bush's toerture policy was bullshit.

Aw, shortstop, you're making me blush.

This "debate" is ridiculous. If the US can't secure people in the interior of our own country, why would one think we could secure people in an enclave, next to an ocean, that's surrounded by a Communist country?

Yea, but...if Jack Baur got locked up in one of these federal prisons, he'd get out...he alwayshas!

I understand your point. But didn't Bush say, very plainly, "we do not torture".

Bush also said we had to attack Iraq because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He said FEMA did everything right after Hurricane Katrina. Bush said a lot of things that turned out not to be true. Why, exactly, is Obama responsible for Bush's lies?

Didn't a bunch of detainees at some other secret prison escape and return to battlefield?

It seems to me that the greatest danger to the US in this situation is importing 200+ hard-core terrorists into facilities containing many many more hard-core criminals and terrorists. The close quarters will facilitate the exchange of ideas and ideologies to the detriment of us law abiding citizens. The risk of domestic terrorism grows daily (as evidenced by the attempted bombing event in NY today). At least keeping those guys in Gitmo keeps them out of the loop and keeps them from directly communicating with like minded losers within our borders.

It seems to me that the greatest danger to the US in this situation is importing 200+ hard-core terrorists

See, there's your first problem -- not all the prisoners at Gitmo are terrorists, let alone "hard-core" ones. The Uighurs, for just one example, aren't.

into facilities containing many many more hard-core criminals and terrorists. The close quarters will facilitate the exchange of ideas and ideologies to the detriment of us law abiding citizens.

Do we have to mention again that supermax facilities involve solitary confinement? Apparently so...

The risk of domestic terrorism grows daily (as evidenced by the attempted bombing event in NY today).

...the alleged perpetrators of which had no contact at all with the Gitmo inmates, but were honked off at the destruction in Afghanistan.

Moreover, a single plot -- which law enforcement had under ample suveillance -- is hardly "evidence" that "the risk of domestic terrorism grows daily." But again, its motivation was perceived injustice by the United States, not jihadi influence.

Your concern is noted, though.

The close quarters will facilitate the exchange of ideas and ideologies to the detriment of us law abiding citizens...At least keeping those guys in Gitmo keeps them out of the loop and keeps them from directly communicating with like minded losers within our borders.

Since the MSM won't bother to report it, we'll just have to keep repeating it: Supermax facilities keep prisoners in solitary for 23 hours a day. The other hour, they speak only to prison personnel. The Republican fantasy of a big old terrorist/criminal powwow in the exercise yard is just that.

Virginia: "I'd be much more worrried if one of our home-grown bad guys escaped, since he might actually be capable of causing some mayhem."

Oh yeah! I can see it now! KSM and the Unabomber, chained together, on the run! Their only hope for freedom is to bring the USA to its knees!

Maybe as a mid-season replacement.

Didn't a bunch of detainees at some other secret prison escape and return to battlefield?

Yes indeed, in the movies Von Ryan's Express, The Great Escape, Victory!, and Escape from Athena.

My my Gregory, don't we have a bit of an attitude.

Well, the more I read the better Supermax sounds for the Gitmo detainees. They sure will miss their days in the breeze near the beach though...

Your willingness to dismiss the fact that the single plot in NY is part of a larger issue denotes the fact that your head is either in the sand or some other dark place nearby.

Thank you for noting my concern though.

Von Ryan's Express. An artistic triumph for Frank.

Add to Stefan's list that chicken movie that was based on The Great Escape. What the heck was that called?

Your willingness to dismiss the fact that the single plot in NY is part of a larger issue denotes the fact that your head is either in the sand or some other dark place nearby.

Ah, muttering darkly about non-specifics. That's convincing. "Part of a larger issue" in what way? Are you claiming some secret knowledge about the NY group's untold-until-now connection to Gitmo inmates?

Because if so, the FBI would like to make your acquaintance. If not, your claim that moving 200+ people (not 200+ terrorists, but give us time) to solitary confinement in U.S. supermax facilities will result in these inmates collaborating in terror plots on these shores remains totally unsupported. And is, in fact, complete bullshit.

Spare us the whining about our attitudes. If you can't back up your statements or counter the facts that are presented to you, shut the hell up.

don't we have a bit of an attitude

Wingnut troll business plan:

1) post right wing bullshit
2) whine about "attitude" or "civility" when called on said bullshit
3) ???
4) Profit!

the more I read the better Supermax sounds

Here's a hint: Next time do your homework first. Here's another: You'll do well to presume GOP talking points are bullshit.

Speaking of which: Your willingness to dismiss the fact that the single plot in NY is part of a larger issue

What "fact" Your that the single plot in NY is part of a larger issue? As shortstop pointed out, if you can establish that the NY plot has anything to do with contact with the Gitmo prisoners, by all means do so.

But who's dismissing anything? To the contrary, I pointed out that the NY plot is part of a larger issue: That Bush's policies are making us less safe. I don't see you addressing that point, either -- could it be your head is either in the sand or some other dark place nearby, that you don't want to criticize Republican security fuckups, or simply that you haven't been given that talking point yet?

Jackass.

Add to Stefan's list that chicken movie that was based on The Great Escape. What the heck was that called?

That'd be Chicken Run. Gotta watch out for those wily chickens, don't'cha know.

If you can't back up your statements or counter the facts that are presented to you, shut the hell up.

If he did any of the above, it'd set him apart from the garden-variety wingnut troll. As it is....sadly, no!

My point is that regardless of Gitmo or any other issue du jour there are right-wing, left-wing and islamic groups that would love to do harm within the US. This is indisputable,

SOME of the detainees at Gitmo ARE terrorists. This again, is indisputable.

If you do dispute this then read no further, we are done.

The point of the article, which appears to have long ago left the building from reading the posts, is 'shouldn't it be safe to house Gitmo detainees within supermax prisons on US soil'.

I merely pointed out that housing them with other criminals presented the possibility of communication that in Gitmo is not present. Even supermax prisoners receive mail, not sure if they can send it but there are many groups committed to communicating with Supermax prisoners to keep their spirits up in such a depresing environment.

Another point I would like to bring up is the detainees will almost certainly lose at least some of the sensitivity currently given with regards to their spiritual needs and dietary requirements. I am still trying to determine the accuracy of that statement but I'll let it stand for now.

My point is that regardless of Gitmo or any other issue du jour there are right-wing, left-wing and islamic groups that would love to do harm within the US. This is indisputable,

Indeed. However, since your original statement quite erroneously had these groups mixing it up at some sort of supermax sock hop, and you've now been corrected several times on the possibility of that happening, it's hard to see why you think this point has any relevance.

SOME of the detainees at Gitmo ARE terrorists. This again, is indisputable.

No one's disputing it. We're firmly correcting your assertion that these terrorists will be freely mixing with other prisoners to..."facilitate idea-sharing," was it?

I merely pointed out that housing them with other criminals presented the possibility of communication that in Gitmo is not present. Even supermax prisoners receive mail, not sure if they can send it but there are many groups committed to communicating with Supermax prisoners to keep their spirits up in such a depresing environment.

Apparently your ignorance about your subject matter knows no bounds, which doesn't seem to slow down your eagerness to argue your viewpoint. No, supermax prisoners do not get to receive or send unscreened mail. Really, Jim, this stuff isn't hard to find out.

Another point I would like to bring up is the detainees will almost certainly lose at least some of the sensitivity currently given with regards to their spiritual needs and dietary requirements. I am still trying to determine the accuracy of that statement but I'll let it stand for now.

Our prison system is perfectly capable of taking care of the spiritual and dietary needs of Muslim inmates, just as it takes care of the needs of inmates of many other faiths. Were you under the impression that these will be the first Muslims imprisoned in the U.S.? Or are you under the impression that Gitmo inmates have extra-special religious and food requirements that differ from other people who share their faith and/or regional culture?

Look, Jim, your posts make it clear that you don't want Gitmo inmates in the U.S. and you're trying on a different set of justifications for that opinion. None of them fits. You might try working forward toward a conclusion, rather than selecting one and scrambling backward looking for ways to support it.

Nah, It would be better to deal with you Jackasses when I am not at work and can do my due diligence.

Your willingness to insult and attack is useful though as it keeps me posting.

I entered this "forum" and voiced a concern.

I don't care where the detainees are housed as long as they are treated appropriately based on what each one is there for. It also seems that Supermax would be far more inhumane than where they are now but nobody seems to care about that either.

Back to my apparent delusiion, so, all you brilliantly well informed people can tell me without a doubt that there is no chance these prisoners will ever be transferred to the maximum security prisons attached to many supermax facilities? There is absolutely no chance that genius activists will eventually have their way and shut down the supermax system? These people can't be deported unless another country takes them so where do they go? And god forbid (I guess I can't mention god,right? sorry) the terrorists think up some way to write mail to each other that might mean something else, oh I don't know, a code or something? Jeez folks, just because we disagree does not mean I am entirely wrong.

Whatever. You guys have fun.

But isn't SuperMax itself a form of torture?

I entered this "forum" and voiced a concern.

You don't say.

I merely pointed out that housing them with other criminals presented the possibility of communication that in Gitmo is not present.

And we merely pointed out that you're factually wrong -- that housing them in supermax facilities presents no possibility of communication whatever that in Gitmo is not present. In fact, those incarcerated in a supermax facility have less (read: none at all) possibility of communication than they do in Gitmo.

there are many groups committed to communicating with Supermax prisoners to keep their spirits up in such a depresing environment

Really? Name three.

I am still trying to determine the accuracy of that statement but I'll let it stand for now.

I think I'll let that statement stand, too, as all the reason anyone needs not to take you seriously.

ok. my bad. I didn't know you guys were already nuts and didn't want to discuss anything but your conspiracy theories about how Bush f-ed everything up. have a great day!

My point is that regardless of Gitmo or any other issue du jour there are right-wing, left-wing and islamic groups that would love to do harm within the US. This is indisputable,

And my indisputable point is that Oslo is the capital of Norway.

There, see, we can both type out banal meaningless platitudes.

And god forbid (I guess I can't mention god,right? sorry)

I prefer Odin.

the terrorists think up some way to write mail to each other that might mean something else, oh I don't know, a code or something?

And what might this code convey? "I'm locked up in a super-secure prison and I can't get out"? And the other guy writes back "Yeah. Me too."

OK. And then what?

There appear to be a few in yahoo groups. Friends of Supermax is the only one that specifically states in the search that it has penlists of people that can be mailed. The reason I haven't done all my fact finding is because it is the result of cursory google searches. I unfortunately got involved in this while taking a break from work and don't have the time to dig in.

Back to my apparent delusiion, so, all you brilliantly well informed people can tell me without a doubt that there is no chance these prisoners will ever be transferred to the maximum security prisons attached to many supermax facilities? There is absolutely no chance that genius activists will eventually have their way and shut down the supermax system? These people can't be deported unless another country takes them so where do they go? And god forbid (I guess I can't mention god,right? sorry) the terrorists think up some way to write mail to each other that might mean something else, oh I don't know, a code or something?

Just to bring this thread full circle, what if one of them has their shape-shifting cohort inject one of the Supermax guards with iron filings, which they then use with their mutant superpowers to escape?

Won't someone please think of the children?!

Jeez folks, just because we disagree does not mean I am entirely wrong.

Maybe, but perhaps one of the reasons we disagree is that you're doing such a piss-poor job of establishing that you're not entirely wrong.

I didn't know you guys were already nuts

If that's so, given that you're doing much worse than we are in demonstrating the factual basis of our respective claims, what does that make you?

and didn't want to discuss anything but your conspiracy theories about how Bush f-ed everything up.

See, there you go, confusing "conspiracy theory" with "matter of public record."

That said, it seems to me that we're discussing what a lousy job you're doing in finding facts to support your predetermined conclusion.

Speaking of which: There appear to be a few in yahoo groups.

I'm overwhelmed by your specificity.

Friends of Supermax is the only one that specifically states in the search that it has penlists of people that can be mailed.

I can mail Santa Claus too. That doesn't mean he gets it.

The reason I haven't done all my fact finding is because it is the result of cursory google searches. I unfortunately got involved in this while taking a break from work and don't have the time to dig in.

I rest my case.

Though I must say, it's refreshing to see someone both argue so aggressively and so candidly admit he doesn't know what he's talking about.

And what might this code convey? "I'm locked up in a super-secure prison and I can't get out"? And the other guy writes back "Yeah. Me too."

OK. And then what?

And this compelling exchange -- the true content of which is clear to those who know how to read it -- rests, of course, on the assumption that Prisoner 1 has been in close contact with Prisoner 2 throughout their time at Gitmo, and that each has been conveniently provided with the other's forwarding address upon Gitmo's closing.

Or maybe these fellows, who are indisputably the scariest SOBs in the history of the world's bad guys -- remember, they're part of a larger issue -- communicate in extradimensional ways we mere law-abiding citizens cannot yet understand. There are more things in heaven and earth, guys, and just because I sound like a total idiot doesn't prove that I am one.

These people can't be deported unless another country takes them so where do they go?

Probably to lurk outside a sorority or anywhere else a lot of nubile, helpless and easily impressed young women gather.

Like my apartment, for example.

Probably to lurk outside a sorority or anywhere else a lot of nubile, helpless and easily impressed young women gather.

Like my apartment, for example.

Ali, see here this fool. He does not understand our training camps have taught us to disguise ourselves in fiendishly clever ways, impersonating well the prison guard, the subway train engineer or the nubile young girl. What buffoons these trusting American liberals be!

In all my reading, etc., I have not picked up on any similar tendency among Americans to see the, say, Nazis or Japanese as comic book supervillains.

You obviously need to spend more time with comic book geeks.

I don't believe anyone is afraid of the terrorists escaping. We are afraid of those who will come seeking to break them out, or just to terrorize the regions in which the prison that houses them exists.

It has happened before. Before being sent to the supermax in Colorado, the First World Trade Building terrorists were held at the Federal Prison in Leavenworth, Kansas. Not long after, letter bombs made up of sentex started appearing in the Leavenworth Post Office.

We were all quite happy when the supermax was ready and they could take the terrorists away from our back yard.

The other concern is that so many current "home grown" terrorists are "converting to Islam (ya know, that religion of peace)" whilst in prison. Those prisoners are released and do things like - oh, you know, um, try to set off bombs in front of Synagogues in New York City. - Like the bunch who appeared in court this morning.

And since Obama seems to want to continue with military tribunals, putting them here at Ft. Leavenworth, not a supermax, seems to be one of the places that the administration is looking at.

Remember please, these are people who crudely saw off people's heads rather than imprison them until the hostilities are over. We give them a zillion more rights than they give anyone else. And don't forget how they treat women and children - and goats.

Those prisoners are released and do things like - oh, you know, um, try to set off bombs in front of Synagogues in New York City. - Like the bunch who appeared in court this morning.

Good point, especially since one of the would-be NY bombers, Mr. Cromitie, appears to be a robot sent back from the future, who would certainly be able to break out of any Supermax prison.

Ali, see here this fool. He does not understand our training camps have taught us to disguise ourselves in fiendishly clever ways, impersonating well the prison guard, the subway train engineer or the nubile young girl.

It did seem odd that she kept calling out "oh Allah! Oh Allah! Oh! Oh! Oh!" when she was supposedly Lutheran.....

And don't forget how they treat women and children - and goats.

Leave Mickey Kaus out of this.