Meanwhile cnn is going on and on about Old Bush jumping out of an airplane.

Whether or not the election was stolen is no longer the issue. We're well past that, now.

Since the election, the Iranian government's state terror has cost it legitimacy in the eyes of its own people. Even if Ahmad won, he's lost.

Seems things might be near a tipping point, where people aren't willing to just shut up and go home and accept what some unelected leaders tell them to accept.

Completely agree with JM. No matter what the actual election result was - what happened afterwards was a coup d'etat - and this didn't go woll with the proud Iranians.

Cudos to their bravery! I wished we Germans had it in '33.

Compare and contrast with the docile citizens of America & the way they all meekly accepted the way Bush was "elected" in 2000.

Democracy can't survive if its people aren't paying attention.

I've got some "green" envy. Can't but marvel at what the Iranian people are willing to do, in the face of mortal danger, to demand democracy. Compare the American non-reaction in 2000.

WOW. Just wow.

I also second zhak's and RMcD's comments.

To echo the sentiment here, it's shameful that Americans care more about the latest 3G cell phone, which candidate got the keynote address at CPAC, or whether they should buy Nautica or Polo, when people across the world in a real dictatorship have the guts to march in the streets, their lives being threatened.

Makes me proud of the Persians, and angry at my fellow citizens who don't give a fuck about anything but themselves.

photos,

http://www.radiofarda.com/content/f35_After_Elections_Pics_I/1753506.html

Bushies,
you really want to invade this country? Can you imagine how they will beat the shit out of everyone who tries it?

Think twice! (Or at least once)

The following claim is quite fascinating and needs followup:
From twitter.com/heretec

# These numbers need to be investigated! Ms Amanpour, please get to the bottom of it! The so-called 'election' was a travesty of justice.
about 17 hours ago from web
# Actual Iran election results-Iran's Interior Ministry leaked the following earlier today: Mousavi 48% Karroubi 28% Ahmadinejad 13%
about 17 hours ago from web

Many are (with good reason IMHO) skeptical of such an inverted truth, see good discussion at a-leak-from-irans-interior-ministry. Some other alternatives are suggested, and REM in any case it's hard to know what really happened "way over there."

At least those people actually *care* - But wait a minute, lots of you are saying "Americans didn't care enough about the outcome of the 2000 election" etc. Actually the militant right cared enough to threaten "blood in the streets" if Gore was seated, and look how nasty they've been fighting Al Franken. The problem is, everyone else doesn't care enough!

I did not rally in the streets following the 2000 election. That was not because I didn't care. It was because, much as I disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision, I thought that it had the right to make it, and that calling its legitimacy into question (where 'its legitimacy' emphatically does not mean the correctness of its results) would be worse for the country.

This weekend marked the end of the main-stream media as credible news sources. Nary a peep on any of the cable news networks, minimal coverage by the traditional TV networks, and virtually no coverage by newspapers outside of the NY Times.

Meanwhile, Andrew Sullivan seemingly had updates on his blog every few minutes...

I am near tears.

Freedom is on the march in Iran. In Iran.

It's enough to make you ashamed of how docile Americans were when we submitted to the theft of a presidential election in 2000.

Two Twitter searches,

Iran election
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=iranelection

near:Tehran within:15mi
http://search.twitter.com/search?geocode=35.7061%2C51.4358%2C15mi&q=+near%3ATehran+within%3A15mi&rpp=25

" Iran_normal
IranRevol: #IranElection @persiankiwi confirmed shooting in Azadi sq. protesters wounded and shot, still hearing gunfire "

For all we know, Ahmedinejad won fair and square, with results that match independent polling.

I think Biden & co are being highly irresponsible, bloviating about elections in foreign countries, without knowing the facts. Where was Biden in 2000 when there was actual evidence of fraud?

Does anyone know the reaction outside of Tehran? Tehran is considerably more liberal (in the Enlightenment sense) than the rest of Iran -- or so it is frequently reported.

Neil B. Actual Iran election results-Iran's Interior Ministry leaked the following earlier today: Mousavi 48% Karroubi 28% Ahmadinejad 13%

The election results were announced before there was time to count the votes, and the Ayatollah Khameini issued a sort of imprimature. Do we know that the Interior Ministry was even permitted to count all of the ballots? How widely within Iran have those results been disseminated and appreciated by the Iranians?

We can only watch, and we have seen popular uprisings crushed before. We have also seen popular uprisings succeed.

I think this vindicates what the left has been arguing all along, that external threats from the US actually weakened the democratic reform movement in Iran, because citizens rally behind their government when that happens. The new diplomatic tact by the Obama administration eases this threat and allows grassroots Iranians to organize and act.

Personally I've always thought Ahmadinejad looks like some kind of professional murderer.

If he was from NY they'd call him Icepick Mo.

I think Biden & co are being highly irresponsible, bloviating about elections in foreign countries, without knowing the facts. Where was Biden in 2000 when there was actual evidence of fraud?---- Ohioan

Like anyone from Ohio has any credibility after voting in 2004 for the administration that costed your state hundreds of thousands of jobs...

I would reiterate that just because *everyone* is saying something doesn't mean it is true. If you were an entity that wished to bomb Iran you would want this outcome exactly: Ahmedinejad wins (because a reformer might initiate detente with the West), but the legitimacy of his government is completely called into question.

There are Iranian exile groups coming out of the woodwork, claiming to have evidence of whatever you need, a la Chalabi, and looking to partner with intelligence agencies, state departments, think-tankers, for a piece of the pie.

People have been paid to organize protests, start civil disobedience, and then other *opposing* groups paid to crack the heads of the first groups, in this very country in 1953.

The Guardian has a live blog at their site - The last two posts, one at 5:30PM and the other at 6PM state that at least five people have been reported killed.

www:guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun15/iranian-elections

Actually it's
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun/15/iranian-elections

At this site, we find arguments including that what really matters is the selection of the candidates more than the elections themselves:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/22310

BTW, it is indeed dangerous for us to assume the election was rigged. There is plenty of room for debate, from the WaPo article today, to various commenters picking at Juan Cole's assumptions etc. Nor must it just be a false dichotomy of M. winning but A. stealing it, v. A. winning fairly. One possibility, is that Ahmadinejad won but the election was abused anyway.

Hilzoy, just to clarify: I'm not saying there weren't people who cared about the outcome of the US election in 2000. What I am saying is that the vast majority of Americans do not care about politics at all. They've been gamed by the system so much that they know that all men are not created equal. Many feel tied to a dead-end job because at least they take home a paycheck. I was raised in a staunchly Republican household to believe that it didn't really matter whether if or how you voted because "they're all a bunch of crooks" (a phrase I heard literally hundreds of times from my parents, who had come of age during the Depression & fought in WWII, but who had also become disillusioned by subsequent events like the violent anti-war protests in the '60s and the Nixon presidency).

I'm talking about the ratings of American Idol or Survivor blowing those of presidential debates out of the water. The average person is so disenfranchised now that they have no hope.

I just think it's a shame.

For all we know, Ahmedinejad won fair and square, with results that match independent polling.

... from the polling group that came to the opposite conclusion on the same data just days ago?

42% non-responders = poll is useless.

Thanks, for the heads up, Vokoban

Bad argument, citizen_pain @1:18.

By your same measure, I could say that you have no credibility since you are from a COUNTRY that voted for Bush in 2004.

The following claim is quite fascinating and needs followup:

Yeah, I find anonymous, unsourced tweets fascinating too....

Obviously anyone who think that the past-tense of "cost" is "costed" has no credibility....