I'm not saying twitter is the definitive path to civil society (it is much less informative now then 48 hours ago, when it was downright riveting) but apparently the State Department (you know those folks run by the President) "persuaded" Twitter to stay open until it was the middle of the night in Iran. Given the choice between Republicans and a President who grasps what "civil society" is, I go with the President every time.

Maybe Goldberg hasn't heard that playing a more active role would be counter-productive to U.S. interests? Maybe he has heard but found these pesky details inconvenient to the point (I use the word loosely) he hoped to make?

Actually, it is central to his point. Also.

By all means, we should take sides in Iran's presidential elections and try to influence the outcome. Then, in order to be fair, we should allow the Iranian government to influence our next presidential elections. National sovereignty is an outdated Cold War concept.

Kevin Drum added, "Obama really drives conservatives to the loony bin, doesn't he?"

Kevin is wrong.

No one has been driven anywhere they weren't already.

Asking the ol'man in the street for answers would most probably prove a better way to discern the world around us than what Mr. Goldberg could ever commit to paper! Why is this non-thinking wonk allowed such platforms when we would be better served allowing a 17 year old to blather his views on the opposite page of Goldberg's tripe! -Kevo

No point in ever expecting anything but indeed, a doughy pantload from "doughy pantload"! As for the protesters, they may not deserve as much sympathy as we think. True, there are suspicious features and e.g. Juan Cole isn't (/)a neocon hack. True, the people are right to oppose repression and various indignities anyway. But in an AP story by Jason Keyser this morning, I read a quote from Arshin Adib-Moghaddam, professor of Middle East politics at U. of London School of Oriental and African Studies:

"Given that Mohsen Resaei, one of the other presidential candidates, is the head of the powerful Expediency Council, for instance, it is highly unlikely that he wouldn't have received any information of such a strategic plan to hijack the election."

I wouldn't know, but it's food for though and cause for caution. We shouldn't assume so much about such a different country, true?

Good to know that mhr and Goldberg learned history from a cereal box.

What's sort of striking to me about people like Goldberg and mhr is I can't decide if they are trying to avoid actually reading and understanding simple and direct arguments or incapable of doing so. I know people might take either of them more seriously if they would even bother addressing the points made rather than pulling out little contextless anecdotes to prove a general rule. (That would be a fallacy of logic, mhr.)

Tell you what, put down the computer and go read some actual history—the ones that don't resuppose their own conconclusions. Then, go look at what people who know the region, language, culture, foreign policy, and diplomacy (and were actually successful) are saying.

Then come back and admit you were wrong, and let's start an actual conversation. Right now, you're worthless, mostly to yourself.

"Did you happen to catch Jonah Golberg's column in the LA Times today?"

No. One way to be sure a column will be filled with useless, inane nonsense is when Jonah Goldberg's name is attached to it. I'm happy to read opposing views when those views at least try to remain within the realm of reality. But Jonah's writings don't meet even that low standard.

This guy, and others of his ilk, writing in his newspaper, and others of the daily fishwrapper variety are the reasons I don't read newspapers anymore. I can getall the nonsense I can handle from Maharushie.

For grownup discussions- with the occasional humorous interlude- I turn to Political Animal in times of stress or boredom . . .

We get it, Jonah -- you're a moron. You can stop proving the point now.

playing a more active role would be counter-productive to U.S. interests

Well, if one defines US interests as 'needing some serious dark-skinned baddies at whom we can rattle sabers and maybe actually bomb'-- which is essentially the neocon position with which I assume Goldberg is aligned-- then of course he doesn't buy it.

Really, there's no point in pretending that this is anything but sheer political manipulation from the right; intervention from the US is emotionally compelling and also worse than useless for the Obama administration, which is exactly what they want because failure cloaked in liberalism is a win-win for them. The GOP loves nothing better than to manipulate liberal ideals in ways that destroy those ideals' credibility-- see also "Palin, Sarah, feminism and."

The fools in the republican party are trying to force Obama to say something that makes the crisis work so they can then blast him for it. Listening to tose morons like McCain say the president needs to do...something, is a trap they are trying to set for him. This is as bad as McCain trying to "negotiate" us into a war with Russia during the Georgia crisis. These people ought to shut the fuck up and let the President do his job. As Dick Lgar says, "he gets an A plus on foreign policy". I am going to trust Obama alot more than any republican on anything.

Goldberg is Jewish, right? I'm sure your average Iranian is less than eager for intervention from members of that particular faith.

Hey republicans. If you don't like it, go throw a fucking tea party.

Wonder why Doughpants went to an all girls college? Did Lucianne not want her little boy to play with those dirty girls in a co-ed college, or was she afraid that he'd get beaten up routinely like he was in high school?

Or maybe, Jonah is really a girl.

...lift a finger for democracy.

I'm lifting a finger to you Jonah Goldberg.

MHR says: Ronald Reagan went out on a limb- he fully supported the strikers and their actions- with his words. Strong words from a president of the US to people who are trying to free themselves from tyranny, mean something. Wishy-washiness is what we got from Jimmy Carter. BO is Carter Redux.

You are an idiot. Ever heard of speak softly and carry a big stick? President Obama has pieces of conservative guys like you in his stool.

Oh, and by the way, you seem to have forgotten when Reagan tucked tail and ran in Lebanon after the Beirut bombing. Now that is cowardice.

Isn't that funny, I saw the same "Reagan spoke up about Poland" talking point in the comments at the LA times. Must be part of the Fax Blast.

These guys don't care if they delegitimize the Iranian reform movement. After all, they're the "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" crowd. They can think past KABOOM.
. . . jim strain in san diego.

shouldn't have posted so soon. Speaking of Ronald Raygun Mr. MHR, if you are so hell bent on having to have Iran as an enemy, then I am going to assume you are one of those neocons who says we have been in a shadow war with Iran since '79?

If that is the case, then wouldn't trading arms with the enemy be treason? President Reagan a traitor? Iran Contra?

I am sick to death of pussy ass cowards like yourself that think republicans have a lock on national defense. You don't. Democrats win wars asshole, republicans lose them. All of them except Gulf War I, where King George 1st was smart enough to ask for help.

Steve Benen quoted Kevin Drum: "Obama really drives conservatives to the loony bin, doesn't he?"

Goldberg isn't a "loony". He's a liar. And the Los Angeles Times is knowingly and deliberately aiding and abetting his lies to undermine public confidence in and support for the Obama administration. This is what's known as "the liberal media".

It's increasingly obvious that the commenter "mhr" is a parody, like "Myke K" (a parody of actual commenter "Mike K") and "MatthewRQuareller" (a parody of actual commenter "MatthewRMarler").

I think the burden of proof is on "mhr" to demonstrate that he or she is an actual Ditto-Head and not a parody of a Ditto-Head.

Given that Mr Goldberg is the exalted historian who gave the world the amazing Liberal Fascism, it's hardly surprising to find him writing such a column. His razor-sharp grasp of history would, naturally, show him that the CIA-inspired coup in Iran in 1953 has led to subsequent generations of Iranians being raised to believe that American intervention in Iranian domestic politics is the absolute best thing ever, and always to be desired.

Regarding your title: are you sure it's "deliberate?" I'm not sure there's intent behind it. I think rather that he's obtuse the way I have brown eyes. Just born that way, you know.

"Enough about those people bleeding in the street. What do you think of me?" Is that how it is to be?

Wingnut projection in a nutshell. In fact, the whole problem the wingnuts have with Obama here is that he isn't using the crisis in Iran as an opportunity to show off the size of his cojones, as they would.

If Obama had done what Goldberg suggests, then the right would be hammering Obama for his naive and counterproductive foreign policy. They've proven time and again that no matter what position Obama takes on nearly every issue, they're going to take the other side.

When Poland was wracked by popular disturbances and strikes in what turned out to be the last days of the USSR and its empire, Ronald Reagan went out on a limb- he fully supported the strikers and their actions- with his words. Strong words from a president of the US to people who are trying to free themselves from tyranny, mean something. Wishy-washiness is what we got from Jimmy Carter. BO is Carter Redux
mhr Uh....You fail the history lesson Iran is not Poland. The people there still want an Islamic Republic just with a different leader This is a Civil type war not a occupational war where a population is subjegated by an intruder (Soviets)

I find it odd, and yet predictable, that, while Goldberg insists that Obama 'lift a finger' to defend democracy in Iran, he had no problem w/democracy being subverted in the US.

-Z

citizen_pain,
Don't forget what he did to the air traffic controllers and how it weakened the labor and union movements nationwide. Some support,huh?

They don't call what the Pantload does "jonanism" for nothin'.

(you can look it up on urban dictionary)

jonah goldberg, namesake of the prophet, in some eerie, bizarro way remains within the archetype, as he utilizes illocutionary acts to destroy his own society.

"Enough about those people bleeding in the street. What do you think of me?" Is that how it is to be?

In Jonah's preferred version, it would be, "enough about those people bleeding in the street. What do you think of MY ENORMOUS BALLS?"

Secular, I don't think MHR is a parody, he's more of a concern troll.

And yes, it's fitting that Reagan went out on a limb for workers rights, IN POLAND, but he was against worker rights right here in the good 'ole US of A.

Asshole republican. Oh well, tell me something I don't know.

I know. Obama should train a contigent of expatriate Iranians to conduct a Bay-of-Pigs, (er, in a nod to religious sensitivity, "Beef") invasion.

And, Obama can direct theCIA to train some of the expatriates in SAVAK-style tactics in anticiaption of a U.S. invasion. (Heh, it worked so well last time and was a P.R. coup for the U.S.)

Doersn't that sound great? Another war that the neocons and their fellow mangina travelers won't participate in.

Mhr,
Here's another history lesson. It was Eisenhower who gave the CIA permission to overthrow a legally elected democratic gov't in 1953. They'd asked Truman who told them NO, just as he told Gen. McArthur NO, you can't go into China during the Koren War.

Eisenhower was a Republican

Truman was a Democrat

The actions of a R party president initiated our present-day difficulties with Iran. This and supporting a weak shah until the revolution in 1979.

The actions of a DP president kept the KW from spreading to China and possibly causing WWIII. Truman considered the fact that WWII had ended only a short time before the KW began.

Good to know that mhr and Goldberg learned history from a cereal box.

Shows what you know -- mhr is incapable of reading a cereal box.

mhr is absolutely a parody.

"When Poland was wracked by popular disturbances and strikes in what turned out to be the last days of the USSR and its empire, Ronald Reagan went out on a limb- he fully supported the strikers and their actions- with his words. Strong words from a president of the US to people who are trying to free themselves from tyranny, mean something."

Ronald Reagan's "strong words" regarding the crackdown in Poland didn't accomplish a damn thing. In fact, his covert assistance to the Solidarity movement prior to the crackdown might have actually led to the crackdown. It was the Soviet Union's economic collapse years later that led to the reforms in Poland.

The best way for Republicans to ensure that President Obama FAILS, is to force him to act like a Republican!

How much do you think carrying Jonah Goldberg's collumn has contributed to the LA Times imploding circulation figures?

Mike

It's not that Goldberg finds the administration's perspective unpersuasive, rejecting arguments about U.S. intervention undermining Mousavi and helping Ahmadinejad. Goldberg doesn't even bother to acknowledge this reality.

Well, sure. If he did, Jonah couldn't trot out another round of the tired "Democrats-are-weak-on-national-security" bullshit.

And without bullshit, Jonah has no column.

The best way for Republicans to ensure that President Obama FAILS, is to force him to act like a Republican! -Moxo

Why not? That plan's worked so far with Harry Reid.

About Ronbo Reagan, REM also he didn't do much about the Soviets shooting down KAL 007 (which may or may not have actually had fishy issues about it.)

Most everybody here is missing the point:

Goldberg- and the rest of the scribblers on The Right- HATE OBAMA.

Why? Like the scorpion crossing the river, it's in their nature.

The topic of the day doesn't matter; whatever it is, the Republicans see it as their duty to damn, villify, and denigrate the President.

Because, simply by registering as a Democrat, Mr. Obama is Evil Incarnate, and Must Be Stopped!

there, i'm done- ran out of caps. . .

I've asked before and ask again. Who the hell is Jonah Goldberg? What particular experience does he have or product deserving of the attention he seems to get? You only have to read no more than a paragraph of his to know what a phony he is. Let's get real- ignore this BS'er.

Who the hell is Jonah Goldberg?

The rotten crotchfruit of one Lucianne "Linda Tripp's BFF" Goldberg. Poison fruit of the poison vine so to speak. Wingnut legacy pledge.

Well, you asked.

Let's not forget the aftermath of the first Gulf War (let's see if Jonah mentioned it--nope, stupid of me even to wonder), when we encouraged dissident Iraqis to take up arms against Saddam Hussein, then stood by idly as Saddam mowed them down with impunity. That sad episode is surely in the back of the minds of Obama and his foreign policy advisors.

Jonah Goldberg is a dick.

"Obama really drives conservatives to the loony bin, doesn't he?"
==============

As the saying goes, it's more like a short putt.

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