Will they withdraw the draft of the DOJ brief that started this round of animosity between Obama and our community? Will Obama act decisively to enter a stop-loss order preventing gay servicemembers from being fired while DADT is under review and eventual repeal? Will Obama give Reid and Pelosi the signal they're waiting for to proceed with repeal of DOMA?

Look, the health care bill process is going to kill about 5-10 points on Obama's popularity before the end of this year. Nothing will happen on DOMA or DADT in the next three years because of the congressional and presidential election cycles. This meeting, like the other dribbles of fake action we're seeing from Obama and his administration do nothing for us. We need answers now on Obama's plans for repeal of DOMA and DADT.

The gay rights people are insane. Sorry, but it is true.

In 1992, the gay rights wacks persuaded Clinton to push "don't ask don't tell" (yes, this was a gay-promoted program). It almost destroyed his presidency. It cost him a HUGE amount of political capital, and today the gay rights wacks hate the program that THEY promoted.

Now is NOT the time.

I wonder why he chose to lose the support of the equal rights community to this extend before throwing a few bones. Seems politically moronic; if he'd done the same stuff without the pressure, two months ago, he'd have gotten points for it, instead of just annoyance.

Bull! It is never the right time for anyone to do anything for gay rights. We are not being pushed to the back of the bus again. Obama has screwed us every time he has had a chance. This latest DOMA BS was an insult, and calls into view his hypocritical lies in promising this part of the electorate one thing, then walking away from his promises when he has other things on his mind. He is going to "talk to leaders in the community"? Talk is damned cheap. He needs to walk back the DOMA brief now.

poedlib--what a crock! We were angry as hell at Clinton's betrayal. Pull your head out of your butt.

POed Lib's assertion is a fabrication. DADT was a compromise that came forward after Bob Dole and Sam Nunn launched a preemptive attack on the idea of allowing gay people to serve openly. There is a big difference between a mere question of timing on when to act on gay rights issues versus the unnecessary insult of the DOMA brief. The Obama administration should never have submitted the brief as written. This is an extraordinarly tone deaf action by the administration, but it is not the first example of gratuitous insults from them. By the way, PO, you're no lib.

For the gay activists, whatever is done is never enough. Can you spell "ungrateful"?

Nothing happens in a day in Washington, but for the gay activists, every day is betrayal day.

Bunch of fucking ungrateful whiners, all of them.

Hey, I'm a lib. I am just skeptical about the gay activists. Just because I am a democrat does not mean that I have to believe every single moronic thing people say.

Stuff takes time. If the gay activists do what they are trying to do, and destroy the Obama Administration, we will have a replacement Republican Administration, and won't that be fun?

The problem continues to be that the Democratic establishment is more afraid of right-wing talking points than it is afraid of its progressive/liberal base. And make no mistake about it, as Bill Maher said last night -- You think Obama is a socialist? He isn't even a liberal!

For years, the Democratic establishment's attitude towards liberals has been the same as it has been toward African-Americans -- You don't like what we're doing? Tough. Where else are you gonna go?

But the GLBT community has figured out how to get the Democratic establishment's attention by hitting them where it hurts the most -- in the pocketbook. Liberals and progressives need to start demanding more than lip service in other areas before we fork over any more money.

It's a sad comment on American politics that that will work better than all the arguments about the moral and practical correctness of our ideas.

POed Lib said:
For the gay activists, whatever is done is never enough. Can you spell "ungrateful"?

Yeah, it's just like those uppity negros. It wasn't enough for them that we ended slavery and let them vote -- sometimes. They had to start demanding to be treated just like whites! Not only that, they expect us to actually enforce the laws we pass!

Nothing seems to satisfy those people either.

POed Lib: DADT was "concocted" by Sen. Sam Nunn and the DOD. Whether it was what Clinton intended is at best, hard to know; but it wasn't what the gay community wanted. Not sure why you think we did.

Since DADT was passed, over 12,500 service members have been discharged. Polls show that between 70% and 80% of Americans, including majorities of conservatives and Christians, support repeal of DADT. The only ones that are insane in this are President Obama, Rahm Emanuel, and others in Obama's adminsitration that are so far behind the curve on this that they've chosen to court a rapidly dwindling minority of Americans, most of whom it is safe to say, want Obama's administration to fail.

POed Lib: This is 2009, not 1992. Things have changed a lot since then. Do we believe in the principles our county was founded on or not? If we are all human*, then everyone should have the same rights. We can't give in to the haters and fearmongers.

*OK, I do have doubts about O'Lielly, Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck, Inhofe, Bachmann, the Kings, and a few others.

Oh, and I did want to thank Barack for that oh, so generous gift he gave us with such hoopla last week--where he actually made it the law that diplomats who are in same sex relations can bring their partners with them to overseas housing, and they can visit them in the hospital. OMG! What a breakthrough in civil rights! It is like the Berlin wall coming down all over again. GEE THANKS, Mr. President! Our lives are so much better now.

Is that a sufficient show of appreciation, poed?

Why should anyone be grateful if the government does its job and protects its citizens and provides equal rights?

criticism from the gay rights community has clearly gotten the administration's attention, and officials are concerned enough to act.

Obama needs to pay more attention to all of the people that got him to where he is, and less attention to those who just want him to fail.

I can certainly understand why people are criticizing Obama over this and other liberal issues, but I just wish they'd hold up on the "betrayal" rhetoric. Criticism and pressure are good and needed. Over-the-top comparisons to slavery and the suffering of black Americans isn't. Before long, you'll be in Pete Hoekstra territory, comparing Obama's lack of action to what's going on in Iran. Should Obama be doing more? Sure. But I don't see how over-hyped Obama bashing helps anyone.

Disappointment with the hypocrisy of politicians is nothing new. However, with Obama the gay community has been unexpectedly blindsided by having to fight gratuitous insults like the DOMA brief, and the lack of any direction in DADT, despite the very clear campaign promises.

No reasonable person expected Obama to put gay rights at the top of his agenda, as a dumb Clinton did in 1993, but neither did we expect to have to accept mere crumbs from the table, as has been the case thus far.

Obama may be indulging in incrementalism, which is fine as far as it goes, but the unnecessary DOMA brief definitely sent the wrong message to the gay community. Getting the powerful military establishment onboard to repeal DADT is no small feat, and Obama shouldn't behave like clueless Clinton did thinking he really had the power to prevail.

It is fair to ask, however, exactly what priority do gay rights have on Obama's agenda? Or is his steady rightward creep going to push them off the bottom of the list? The Log Cabin Syrup crowd is already homeless (despite their wealth), and what will happen if the progressive gay wing is also left out in the cold?

The dim Dems never seem to get it.

why should anyone be upset because they are not allowed to go and get killed in some of our stupid wars? I think if I were a young man I would actually fake being gay just so I wouldn't have to serve in the armed services that are not really meant to protect us but to impose our will on people who don't want our kind of democracy.

I hope people actually read the DOMA brief -- and also read the "LawDork" article Steve linked to -- was it yesterday -- which showed how my fellow members of the LGBT community acted like a bunch of 'dittoheads' accepting Arevosis' interpretation of the brief instead of checking it out themselves.

(Much the same thing happened with the FISA vote. In both cases there were legitinate arguments against Obama's position, but too many of us accepted hysterical misrepresentations of what Obama did. In the DOMA case, Obama did not, as Arevosis and others claimed 'equate gayness and incest and pedophilia.' What the brief did was point out that in some states 15-year olds could get married (and first cousins could marry each other) and that in other states the rules were different. (As "LawDork" pointed out, the trend has been towards recognizing such marriages from other states, which is the general idea. As he also points out, the decision extending federal rights and benefits to same-sex couples will serve as an example in those states where this is not permitted -- and might even provide -- LD didn't say this -- a solid argument that, by offering such, the Federal Government has pre-empted the states' right to deny such benefits.)

But, as I keep on pointing out, it is only five months since Obama was inaugurated. Not only does he have more important fights than gay rights, he seems to have been following a deliberate strategy on a lot of areas.

I believe he saw as clearly as Steve and some of us saw that the Republicans had decided that they had either to attack Obama on everything or surrender to him. So he has, so far, deliberately taken posiions that the Republicans could not attack without showing themselves as fools or bigots. (Sotomayor, anyone.)

But that strategy has included two other tactics. He has repeatedly 'offered the branch of bipartisanship' knowing it would be rejected and his face would be slapped. He looks good -- to the vast majority of people who aren't political junkies -- the Republicans' foolishness and bigotry is demolishing what little credibility they had after Palin and Limbaugh -- and, in reality, he hasn't actually given away anything because his 'offers' were rejected.

But the other prong of that strategy is to make sure he doesn't get into any unnecessary close fights, that he doesn't give any opening for a "Blue Dog/Republican" coalition to become a solid bloc -- as was the combination of Segregationist Democrats and "Old Guard Republicans" during the Kennedy-Johnson period -- because he knows that, unlike Johnson and FDR (and TR) he doesn't have a core of Moderate or solidly Progressive Republicans to counterweight the bloc.

A consequence of this is to avoid, duck, and foodle on positions in which there is some noticeable 'respectable' public support for the opposing position, for now. (I think some of the 'horrible' court briefs he's submitted may be designed to lose, or give future openings, while still not coming down on a side that can be credibly attacked.)

Give him more time, but there's another factor that deserves a comment by itself.

Obama Administration Set To Hold Powwow With Big Gay Groups

You know you've made it when you get the "Big" label - Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, and now Big Gay.

Oh, and I did want to thank Barack for that oh, so generous gift he gave us with such hoopla last week--where he actually made it the law that diplomats who are in same sex relations can bring their partners with them to overseas housing, and they can visit them in the hospital. OMG! What a breakthrough in civil rights! It is like the Berlin wall coming down all over again. GEE THANKS, Mr. President! Our lives are so much better now

Obama did everything the law allowed him to do. He also pledged to overturn DOMA, but the ultimate responsibility for that lies with Congress. Your anger is woefully misplaced. I'm sorry if some of you don't understand how things get done in Washington, but Obama is the head of executive branch. He doesn't run Congress.

Is that a sufficient show of appreciation, poed?

Stop whining. It's no wonder people like POed Lib (and myself) have a hard time taking you seriously. Martin Luther King took a bullet in Memphis, and he whined less than you.

It's not criticism from the gay community that got Obama's attention--he doesn't give a rat's about what teh ghey think. It's the high profile gays pulling out of the fundraiser that did it.

We forget that the Supreme Court is what it is. There is a solid block of the "Four Horsemen of Doom," a more reasonable block of three -- with Souter gone and Sotomayor not yet on the court -- and the unpredictable Kennedy, who leans towards the conservative side, but is very similar to Owen Roberts, the 'swing vote' on the original Roosevelt Court whose position-change during the 'court-packing' fight was the "Switch in Time that Saved Nine."

(The big difference is the comparative youth of the Conservative judges. Roosevelt knew he'd get a chance to replace McReynolds, Sutherland and the others, but it is very conceivable that -- if they don't get discouraged (let's hope they do) -- they could all serve through the eight years of the Obama presidency.)

I think Obama is, rightly, very scared of the Court, because, if they get the 'wrong sort' of case, they could come out with a ruling that could not only overturn progress already made. but could premept and prevent any progress being made in the future. (Imagine, for example if a Scalia-led decision came down specifically declaring that marriage could only be between a man and a woman, and that all gay marriage statutes were Unconstitutional. Or, on another topic, a similar decision were to come down ratifying the Bush-era torture and surveillance policies or immunizing anyone who could claim they were directed from above unless such a superior were being tried.)

Imagine also the blow to the public perception of the Obama Presidency if such decisions were made specifically opposing a brief filed in opposition to current law. I think that Obama and Holder are more attempting to limit the possible mischief the Supreme Court could do than to take 'bold stands' that could result in decisions that would be deadly to progress in some areas.

(Obama has shown himself a student of history, and particularly of FDR. He remembers some of the early cases that came down that gutted early New Deal egislation. Again, FDR had support from most of his party and from a cadre of Progressive Republicans and Independent Republicans like Norros and LaGuardia to get around the decisions, but Obama might, rightly, doubt he has the same -- yet.

Very short-sighted of the GLBT community to be pushing so hard on this. We have the most gay-sensitive president in history; he has promised to move forward in numerous areas of gay rights and he has shown again and again to be a man of his word; he's got a ton of other world-shaking issues on his plate; and yet they are throwing an embarassingly childish hissy fit because they're not getting their way as fast as they would like?
Shameful and ridiculous.

It's not criticism from the gay community that got Obama's attention--he doesn't give a rat's about what teh ghey think

I honestly can't understand how anyone can seriously suggest this. We've seen nothing from Obama to suggest that he's stupid, phony, or bigoted. And while it can be argued that he's making a pragmatic decision to pullback on these issues for political reasons, I find it incomprehensible how anyone could seriously suggest that he doesn't care. This is just over-hyped rhetoric attempting to pressure him into proving them wrong, but which I think is counter-productive.

All it does is pit part of the liberal community against the other part, with an "Us v. Them" mentality suggesting that you either think Obama needs to overturn DOMA and DADT immediately or you're against the gay community. And that's really not what we need right now. Even now, this board is divided between people attacking Obama and those attacking his attackers. I fail to see how that helps anything. As I said before, criticism and pressure are good, as Obama might need a reminder that these issues are important to his people. But over-hyped attacks are only dividing us. We're all on the same team, so there's no sense in smearing people simply for having a different priority system.

Obama is behind the curve on this one. Gay marriage exists. Nobody that is a possible voter for the Democratic ticket is troubled by gay marriage. Repeal of DOMA and DADT are freebies; they make the Democratic base feel good, would provide a victories over the GOP, and force the GOP to adopt the most extreme, hysterical, anti-gay rhetoric. When you have issues where the right thing to do is also politically advantageous you should beat your opponents over the head with them. Getting these done would require no political capital. Rather, Obama would gain political capital with the victories.

> The Obama Justice Department has reached out
> to major gay rights

"Reach out" is corprospeak for "not actually assign any individual with authority and resources the responsibility of getting anything done; instead jump on an IM client for a while and jawbone about it, then forget it."

> Hey, I'm a lib.

Has anyone ever heard of a actual liberal identifying themselves with Big Pharma's term "lib"? Didn't think so.

Has anyone ever heard of a actual liberal identifying themselves with Big Pharma's term "lib"? Didn't think so.

Unless someone is handlejacking the name (which I doubt), POed Lib is a liberal - and not a shy one, based on past comments.

"Nobody that is a possible voter for the Democratic ticket is troubled by gay marriage."

I wish that were true, but it isn't. Compare the total vote for Prop Hate to the Obama vote and you'll see some overlap. And I live in NYC, and have been watching the current chaos in the NY State Senate and how much of it was inspired by anti-marriage equality Democrats. (And a couple of the most homophobic Democrats, particularly Ruben Diaz, were holding back, but are unlikely votes for gay marriage.)

In fact, my part of my Congressional district has regularly supported liberal Democrats for Congress and the Presidency (I don't think the Republicans even ran a candidate for the House in 08) but also supports hysterically anti-gay representatives to state and city positions. I am just outside Simcha Felder's district and also just miss the 'joy' of being represented by Dov Hykind.

Yes, i think Obama is 'behind the curve' on this one, deliberately. so that we can pull him in our direction and do what you thought simple support for DOMA repeal would do 'force the GOP to adopt the most extreme, hysterical, anti-gay rhetoric.'

That will happen, but again, by indirection. (See 'The Campaign of Hillary Clinton" and the "Collected Electoral Speeches of Sarah Palin" and then try and listen to Limbaugh.) Obama, very subtly, gave them the opportunity to be hysterical, and they fell for it -- far worse than even a veteran politican watcher like Steve foresaw.

Nobody was asking Obama to repeal DOMA this week. But when Bush appointee in the DOJ filed a distorted and slanderous brief, Obama should have done what any other boss would do- withdraw the brief and have it rewritten by someone who could reflect Obama's sentiments.

Or did the original brief actually reflect Obama's sentiments?

Obama promised you nothing. His whole campaign, in fact, was very explicit that he wasn't promising anything. Naturally we all hoped that a relatively honest President would do the best he could.

Well, now one of the canaries is dying before your eyes. Watch what he says about health care tomorrow and then check the health of that canary.

The whole federal government is filled with Bushies who can cause trouble. If Obama can't control them, there won't be any big changes, no matter how much time we give him.

You want to know who is whining here? It is the crybaby hetero liberals who don't give a rat's ass about gay rights. They are so afraid that one of THEIR pet projects might get pushed back that they whine and moan that we are making too much of a fuss, never satisfied with what we have won. Poor President Obama, having to deal with this ungrateful, impatient group who can't seem to understand that when he says during his ampaign he is against DOMA, it doesn't really mean that he gives a good goddam.

For the gay activists, whatever is done is never enough.

Um, well, that's mostly because nothing gets done, at least not at the federal level. I'll be happy to be grateful for all of the things that Obama has done if you will be so kind as to enumerate them for me.

Can you spell "ungrateful"?

Can you spell "ignorant?"

Obama did everything the law allowed him to do.

Not really. The claim was that DOMA prevented him from doing more but that's a rather expansive reading of DOMA, one that is not supported by existing case law or by experts in the field.

We have the most gay-sensitive president in history; he has promised to move forward in numerous areas of gay rights and he has shown again and again to be a man of his word

He's also a man who has displayed a fair amount of tonedeafness on gay issues and has walked back some of his promises. There is ample reason for skepticism, which is why many in the gay community are assuming that Obama is like Roosevelt in this respect:

"I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." Franklin D. Roosevelt, in a comment to a group of reformers.

The gay community is attempting to "make Obama do it."

There have been many acts by the Obama administration that I have been leery about (banking, for one), but I see no reason for accusing it of "betraying" the LGBT community. Insensitive, probably. Scared to death of Republican/MSM attacks (I know, useless repetition), yes; but that is not betrayal. No matter what anyone says, the administration will have to use a lot of its political clout to get repeal/replacement through this, or any, Congress and while I imagine they simply aren't looking forward to expending that amount of effort/time, that doesn't mean that they are writing LGBTs off.

"...The gay community is attempting to 'make Obama do it'". PaulB @ 3:24 PM.

Good. I have never believed that repealing DOMA and replacing would be simple or easy (too many scaredy-cat members of Congress). We need, with the assistance of the Administration, to construct a coalition, in and out of Congress, sufficiently sturdy enough to properly handle these two laws. In my opinion DADT should take first place, since allowing gays to serve openly in the military would put a Federal stamp of approval, so to speak, on simply being gay or lesbian. That alone would cut out a lot opposition to DOMA ("What, I'm a veteran and you're saying I can't marry the man/woman I love?"). There will still be screams, but with veterans, openly enlisted as gay/lesbian and having openly served as gays/lesbians, more people will be inclined to ignore those screams.
Regarding the now infamous DOMA legal brief (an obvious attempt by a Bushite to embarass the Administration that has worked): my legal knowledge is limited, CAN it be withdrawn? If the administration can't, or won't, (fearful of being seen kowtowing to the gays?), would a simple statement from the AG that the brief should have been limited to simply pleading that DOMA is the law, cite the references used in VT and left it at that, be better? I know that won't cut it at some web sites, but nothing short of the immediate repeal of DOMA and replacing DADT would at this point.

"He's also a man who has displayed a fair amount of tonedeafness on gay issues and has walked back some of his promises."

It's just impossible to make some people happy. If he walked on water, people would complain that Obama did not turn it to wine AND walk on it at the same time.

None of this stuff is going to happen soon, folks, and all the whining, bitching and complaining is not going to make it happen faster. In fact, it will slow it down. The gay activists are harming Obama, and that will slow down things even more. It's like a death wish, really, the self-destruction going on.

Here we are in the middle of the most serious financial crisis in my lifetime, some pretty serious foreign policy crises, and it's bitch, bitch, bitch all the fucking time.

Whatever will happen will happen VERY slowly, and that's always the way.

It is the crybaby hetero liberals who don't give a rat's ass about gay rights

Yes, this is exactly what we need. Liberals attacking liberals.

Sure, we're all on the same team and merely have a different idea of what the timeline should be, but by all means, let's make this as personal as possible. It's not like anything important is going on in the world besides this little drama. It's Gays v. Straights and everyone needs to pick a side.

It's just impossible to make some people happy.

It's interesting that you persist in these ad hominem attacks instead of actually discussing the real issues. We're still waiting for the list of all those wonderful things that Obama has done, the stuff that is "never enough" for us. Funny how you just can't seem to think of anything, isn't it? Why is that?

If he walked on water, people would complain that Obama did not turn it to wine AND walk on it at the same time.

And even more interesting that you feel compelled to come up with silly strawman arguments like this. Complete bullshit, of course, but I'm sure it makes you feel all smug and superior.

None of this stuff is going to happen soon, folks

No shit, Sherlock.

and all the whining, bitching and complaining is not going to make it happen faster.

Um, did you, perchance, read the the post that started this thread? Of course "whining, bitching, and complaining" will make it happen faster. It always has; it always will.

In fact, it will slow it down.

And more nonsense, completely devoid of any knowledge of civil rights history or of current events. There have always been people like you, telling people that "now is not the time." It never will be the right time for people like you. It's the others, though, who make it happen, who make it "the right time."

The gay activists are harming Obama

Oh, dear, the poor man, harmed by those evil "gay activists." How ever will he survive?

and that will slow down things even more. It's like a death wish, really, the self-destruction going on.

ROFL.... Are you really not aware just how silly this whole post is?

Here we are in the middle of the most serious financial crisis in my lifetime, some pretty serious foreign policy crises, and it's bitch, bitch, bitch all the fucking time.

My god, what a drama queen you are. Man, do you seriously need a reality check.

Whatever will happen will happen VERY slowly, and that's always the way.

Uh-huh, whatever you say, dear.

Yes, this is exactly what we need. Liberals attacking liberals.

Yes, heaven protect us from all of those gay activists who write shit like: "The gay rights people are insane. Sorry, but it is true."

Oh, wait, that wasn't us. I must have missed your earlier post about "liberals attacking liberals" when you read that post. Maybe you can point me to it?