Yes, and ALL IN THE NAME OF GOD ... the 'divine' cleric decrees killings and beatings ... yes, all in the name of God ...

OT, but.....I have been unable to access this site for the last three plus days. Now, suddenly, I can again, but I see no mention here of server problems or anything. What's up? Anyone else have this experience?

[Our servers were hacked several days ago and we were offline for about 12 hours, but have been back up for several days. Is it possible that you have rebooted or cleared your cache since the last time you tried to load this site? -Mod]

On the one hand, the reaction is not as bad as I feared it would be. On the other, it pretty much proves how illegitimate the Iranian government is. If they weren't, they would let the demonstrations happen and just fizzle out on their own.

The hour of reckoning arrived at sundown, and Mousavi is among the people, and told his supporters that he has ritually bathed for martyrdom. The eight or so hours between now and sunrise are the most critical ones since the election.

It's a whole nuther kind of protest now. The protesters still out are fewer in number but most all of them are willing to die on this hill, and have prepared themselves for that possibility. They are fighting back, and now that it is nightfall and there are fewer people on the streets, look for more militant actions.

It's amazing how little this website ever has to see about police tactics here. How is this any different than what the police did to the RNC demonstrators? This sounds mild in comparison to the police responses to protests in this country.

I would suggest anyone who wishes to disagree with that do actual research before they declare that things like this never happen in America.

DId you see the WTO protests in Seattle? Was that a brutal government crackdown on noble freedom fighters, or ordinary sceurity trying to keep the peace when the streets are filled with angry people, SOME of whom might break a few things?

I was here and think that it is somewhere in between , but I hope I am making a point. It's not easy to fully understand all of the dynamics even when it happens here. Given the circumstances and the possibility of danger to the regime it sounds to me like they have been restrained after some pretty stupid shooitng early on, which they seem to have reained in.

I'm not defending the iranian government and I think the people are right to be sick of their government's cynical maneuvers. I'm just saying it does not yet sound that dire to me. I think the Iranian government would like the people to let off some steam.

The response in Tehran is no worse than that of the RUC to any demonstration by Nationalists during the troubles in Northen Ireland. Given that no-one appears to have been shot, then it is probably better than the RUC's response on many occasions.

I remember talking to an old liberal who was drafted in the army and was on the government side of some anti-war protests. He said that as scary as it is to be on the wrong end of a gun, its also quite scary to be on the wrong side of an angry mob.

Not to excuse what the Iranian leadership does...but an interesting thought.

Actually people are being shot and killed, and as for protests in this country bringing on the head-cracking, where were they in 1991 when my city at the time, Wichita, was under siege by domestic terrorists? They kept up their occupation of that city for 18 fucking years until one of them assassinated Dr. Tiller in the foyer of his church.

Before that, in 1983, I didn't see anyone get their head cracked when protesters tried to surround DMAFB in Tucson (they failed to take into consideration the size of that place with the plane graveyard and massed 50K or so at the front gate instead). The day of their big protest an actual fucking Sierra Movement was taking place (that is the term for the movement on public roadways of an actual live nuclear warhead) and no one got their head cracked then, either.

Please don't try to tell me that it's just as bad here as it is in Iran until we actually take to the streets like they have. 20 thousand trust fund kids who don't believe in showering daily or using deodorant taking to the streets of Seattle is a fucking joke. Especially compared to what these kids are doing.(Where were those kids who trashed downtown Seattle when our election was being stolen in 2000, anyway?)

Ah well. We all know that the only thing that would get the average American off the couch and into the streets would be a threat to the Cheetoh supply.

from Andrew Sullivan,

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/

12.53 pm. The state media are putting words into Obama's mouth:

This morning a friend of NIAC who gets Iranian Satellite TV here said that state-run media showed President Obama speaking about Iran this morning. However, instead of translating what he actually said, the translator reportedly quoted Obama as saying he �supports the protesters against the government and they should keep protesting." Assuming this report is correct, it shows the Iranian government is eager to portray Obama as a partisan supporting the demonstrators.

So the Khamenei regime wants the same posture from the Obama as Krauthammer and Wolfowitz. They just don't know what they're talking about, do they?

How is this any different than what the police did to the RNC demonstrators?

That may the dumbest thing I've ever read on the 'tubes.

...This sounds mild in comparison to the police responses to protests in this country.

Too.Stupid.To.Be.Real.

Actually people are being shot and killed

Blue Girl - There is no denying that people were shot and killed a few days ago in Iran but I have so far seen no reports of shootings and killings by the authorities during today's protests. Have you? If you have, can you post links to them.

Also are you proposing that the protestors in Iran should resort to violence? From what you say above, it seems like you are.

The protesters still out are fewer in number but most all of them are willing to die on this hill, and have prepared themselves for that possibility. They are fighting back, and now that it is nightfall and there are fewer people on the streets, look for more militant actions.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I am reading email from a couple of friends who live in Shiraz and Tehran, and I am following Twitter feeds of the more reliable sources of information. Many are saying they are ready for martyrdom. If you want to spin that to me espousing violence, be my guest.

And for the record, there has been at least one confirmed death today, a young female student who was shot and killed, and unconfirmed reports of others.

Here. See for yourself. If you have the stomach for it.

>...This sounds mild in comparison to the police responses to protests in this country.

Too.Stupid.To.Be.Real."

Too.young.to.remember.the.civil.rights.marches.kent.state.and.chicago?

When the power of govt is challenged, they will bust heads.

And don't forget the police riot in Chicago in August 1968. That was a head-cracking good time, wasn't it?

D'oh! Sorry Buford. You got it. My bad. Should have read closer.

Here is another youtube of another shooting today, although this one looks to be a survivable wound. I have seen a hell of a lot of bullet wounds, and if anyone with one like this made it to the hospital alive and died later, it was from a rxn to anesthesia. But whether this kid get prompt and adequate medical care is anybody's guess.

Buford,

I'm not saying we have never seen violence from the authorities.

We simply cannot compare our own brutality to the scale that is being used in Iran. For example: we have not seen so much violence that every european embassy, as a humanitarian gesture, opened its doors to give medical assistance to the wounded; There are reports of helicopters spraying the crowd with chemical irritants, possibly a type of acid; There are reports of open gunfire in many towns; Ambulances are said to be traps to lure the protesters to waiting Basij.

I don't ever remember thousands of people in the U.S. being sprayed with acid, using medical vehicles as lures, or opening fire on protesters in many towns at the same time.

And no, I am not too. young. to remember... I have lived to see both Kennedys and MLK assassinated, Vietnam protests, Nixon's resignation, etc.

I also was working in downtown Seattle the day of the big WTO riot and my building was in lockdown.

So, maybe we shouldn't assume someone hasn't seen something until we ask them outright if they have or not.

By the way, I wish I were too young to remember.

What's that old saying? "If I knew I would become this old, I would have taken better care of myself."

;)

A tweet from one of the most reliable Iranian Twitter users:

good source: Hospital close to the scene in Tehran: 30-40 dead thus far as of 11pm and 200 injured. Police taking names of incoming injured. less than a minute ago from web

"So, maybe we shouldn't assume someone hasn't seen something until we ask them outright if they have or not."

Based on your response one would assume that you were unaware of the violent actions used against protesters in the United States.

From Tehran to Tiananmen, Belfast to Birmingham Alabama the government responses to civil unrest look pretty much the same. Chemical weapons, bullets, truncheons, water cannons, beatings.

Only difference is that the US hasn't seen a massive show of civil unrest for a good while... probably not since the US army attacked the Veterans Bonus Demonstrators in 1932 with Calvary, Tanks, and adamsite gas.

A still photo of another dead protester

"20 thousand trust fund kids who don't believe in showering daily or using deodorant taking to the streets of Seattle is a fucking joke." Blue Girl

Your caricature is terribly inaccurate, but I gather that you aren't interested in seriously entertaining facts that get in the way of your comfortably white-and-black view of the world.

Atheism sounds more and more credible and comforting each day, doesn't it?

"My god is love, my god is peace,
My god loves you, and my god loves me."
- Melissa Etheridge (2007)

GwDGC4