The American consumer doesn't gain much from the "competition" among the oil companies. When one raises its prices, they all do.

if Stossel is impressed, the argument is almost by definition wrong.

this "economist" needs to go back and re-read the chapter in his 101 text on market assumptions and market failures. he can even make a handy checklist as to what assumptions are met and what failure conditions exist for each - supermarket, health care.

or, he could just let me tell him what the little checklists will show. they'll show he's a dumbass and any college that gave him an econ degree should revoke it.

Hey Newman : does the term oligopoly ring a bell?

If I went to a supermarket that stole my food as I walked out the door, I would want the government to step in. If I went to a clothing store and they took my money and gave me nothing in return, I would want the government to step in. If I paid for health insurance and I am denied the health care I paid for in my time of need, again, I would want the government to step in.

If having a government supermarket or a government clothing shop was the only way to achieve a fair and level playing field, I would support that as I support the public option for universal health care.

Putting my personal health care in the hands of agents who profit from denying me that very care seems counter-intuitive.

It is the government's responsibility (which advocates for every citizen in the land) to protect its citizens and insure their health, wealth and security.

Also the food, clothing, etc. costs the same to everybody, and everybody is allowed to walk into the store to buy it. A real analogy would be if people with jobs were allowed to buy eggs for $2 but those without had to pay $10--if they were even allowed into the store.

Maybe we should create taxes for insurance systems which tax them for every claim denied (so there's no impetus to skip paying) and penalizes them extra for every false claim they don't report or find.

Then we put the money into a pool to pay for those who are uninsured?

I'm always amazed at the Right's insistence of not letting the government come between them and their doctors...unless of course someone wants an abortion.

Perhaps Prof. Newman could illustrate to us why, with 1500 private plans, the cost of health insurance has been going up every year at twice the rate of inflation. In my Econ 101 class, I was told that when demand exceeds supply prices rise. Hmm. I guess 1500 private plans don't produce enough competition.

And of course, of those 1500 private plans, I only have access to about 12 in my major metro area...

Urgh, it's climate change all over again, just with different nouns. As usual the objective is to keep the money steered in a particular direction, regardless of everything else.

The big problem with insurance markets is that they deal in future benefits that are not clearly defined. If I'm in the supermarket, I can look at a peach and decide if that peach is worth the price. But with insurance, you have know idea what you're getting until you actually get sick. It's like buying peaches ten years in advance. You have no idea whether the peaches you get ten years from now will be rotten or not. But you have to buy them now anyway. And this allows insurance companies to avoid any real marketplace. By the time you find out your plan sucks, you've already bough it. Sure, the company will eventually get a bad reputation, but by that time, they've merged with four other companies and have a different name. The new company has no bad reputation yet and can sell bogus insurance for a decade before it merges again and operates under another name.

The insurance crookedness put horrible stress on those most in need of support. In Canada, we just show a card and then never think of the business end, which is far more efficient and produces far better results than the U.S. Keep up the good fight. It is worth it.

I'm floored by the fact that anyone who doesn't work for an insurance company would defend them. It's like defending the DMV.

Oh good grief. Talk about not understanding the model, especially given the extent to which government subsidies affect the cost and availability of the products sold by grocery stores. Oh, and can we talk food stamps, anyone? Besides, and this is an important point -- insurance companies are exempt from antitrust laws. Grocery stores aren't.

Plus, insurance companies rely on the fact that individuals aren't the ones making the decision about which plan to use -- their employers are. You may get lucky and get your employer to push an insurer on a coverage decision, but probably not. Also, the insurance companies rely on the friction of changing plans (i.e., they push people as much as they can, relying on inertia -- for everybody they screw at a company, there are 100 people who would be annoyed if the company changed plans (possibly changing doctors, copays, etc.).

>"...1500 private plans, I only have access to about 12 in my major metro area..."

The reality is worse than that.

If you're middle aged and/or have pre-existing conditions, for all practical matters you have access to ZERO plans outside of what might be provided by an employer. [unless you're a multi-millionaire]

Middle aged, lose your job, get sick... might as well go off and die.

It's actually more like selling someone a guarantee that you will provide them with pants in the future and when that future arrives refusing to provide fabric and insisting that a virtual, idealized pants will fit all occasions.

My CEO looks at all of the supermarkets available and picks one. Then he goes shopping and buys my groceries. All I have to do is come home, and my pantry is full.

Of course, there was this one time I wanted to have a nice dinner party, and I went to my pantry and all of the food my CEO picked for me was spoiled, so I called the supermarket. Out of the kindness of their hearts, they took back the food for a refund (with a slight restocking fee), but they banned me from shopping there again.

Since my CEO picked that as our official grocery store, I can't really shop anywhere else easily, and I am especially out of luck when it comes to my fancy dinner party because all of the other grocery stores refuse to sell me the food I need for it.

How can you guys not see the obvious similarities?

A minor (or not so minor) point...the Government does heavily subsidize many farmers to keep wholesale food prices low so that we DO have affordable food.

Yes...food IS more important than Health Care. And the Government does recognize this already.

"It's like defending the DMV."

Actually, some DMVs are pretty good. I actually enjoyed my experience with the Texas DMV. Short lines and cheap fees. And in Austin, they even had a drive-thru office. Now California, on the other hand, is a total nightmare.

The whole educated consumer approach for medical care is such complete nonsense.

When I'm shopping for food or clothes, I'm generally informed about my options, not in a crisis mode, and am not spending that much money. When I need medical care, I'm often in crisis mode and can't communicate or think clearly, let alone make informed decisions regarding complex medical decisions about expensive procedures.

When I'm purchasing clothing or food, its based on me living where I do and my current lifestyle. If something really unusual comes up, I can make an informed decision about my budget and needs. I know if I need a suit, some casual clothes or maybe even a ski outfit. The equivalent with medical care is you think you need the basic clothes (a check-up, etc.) but unfortunately some of us find out we need an amazingly expensive item like an astronaut's suit if we want to live.

As noted before I have a CHOICE of supermarkets, I have no choice in the company providing my health care and only two major plans to choose from.

Health care insurers are in effect an oligarchy. A public plan might start to make them honest.

I would have hoped this was obvious, even to Stossel and the editors of the Wall Street Journal's op-ed page. -- Steve Benen

You have also, probably, wondered why Wall Street was in trouble and how they managed to pull all of us into it with them. Wonder no more, my lad.

John Stossel was "especially" stupid.

Stossel = tool

A real analogy would be if people with jobs were allowed to buy eggs for $2 but those without had to pay $10--if they were even allowed into the store.

Plus, you're not allowed to buy any food if you walked into the store already hungry.

I call the entire affair without a public option a charade and if enacted we should take to the streets as if the Presidential election were tarnished right underneath us as in Iran. This country must empower its citizens and disenfranchise its specific criminal elements, ideally the "Health Care Insurance" industry. This cannot stand as a health care reform bill without healthcare reform, aka a single payer option. Fuck the establishment, they're only established for one reason!

One more thought on the anology (a bit late but what the hell): You are charged for food that you buy. If you don't want food (or a lot of it) you pay less. Insurance companies charge you for services that a vast majority of people who happen to be healthy , don't use. Use it or not, you pay every month. Thank God, my son, whose insurance I've been paying for 21 years uses the policy for a yearly health exam and an occasional antibiotic for a sinus infection. So I am paying for a service that for 21 years I rarely use/used. Nothing in return for the $$$.

Food, on the other hand, is paid for and used daily. Clothes? How'd you like to pay a monthly fee for sneakers you never own, or $450 a month (Cobra plan for a single person) for a jacket that isn't hanging in your closet.

Stossel is a dope. If not he's surly intellectualy dishonest.

And another thing. Perhaps the Insurance companies should return the monthly primium if you don't use it. Or let it accumulate like AT&T cell phone minutes...Dreammmmmmmmm, dream, dream, dream, dreammmmmmm..

Of course, with clothes and food you've got soup kitchens and Goodwill — organizations that help people with plenty give to people without any.

What if people who have too much insurance were able to give some of theirs to people who can't afford insurance? I could pay for some kid's broken arm with the leftover insurance I have, for instance.

Oh wait... That's what the public option IS ultimately. Except that, because the insurance companies have no interest in making it possible to donate coverage to the less fortunate, the government is going to have to do it for them.

People! Its the WSJ Editorial page!

"Wall Street Journal editorial page: A glimpse behind the curtain"
http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/wall-street-jou-2.php

Eating is even more important than health care, so shouldn't we have government-run supermarkets "to keep the private ones honest"? After all, supermarkets clearly put profits ahead of feeding people. And we can't run around naked, so we should have government-run clothing stores to keep the private ones honest.

And not being murdered, raped and robbed is even more important than health care, so shouldn't we have government-run police "to keep people honest"? And we can't run around without shelter, so we should have government-run fire departments to make sure our houses don't burn down?

Oh, uh, wait. We already do?....well, uh....never mind.

Supermarkets make money by selling people food. Clothing stores make money by selling people clothes. If they don't give people food/clothing, they don't get money.Insurance companies, on the other hand, make money by selling people insurance -- and they make even more money by selling insurance, and then denying claims.

Stossel's analogy would work better if you paid the supermarket money for your food, and then the supermarket's claims department kept your money but denied you the food because of your pre-existing obesity condition....

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The contrary is actually true. The health insurance company controls what health care you can and cannot buy. Thus, it is more powerful than the supermarket itself, since it has decided what to do with your money. This is rationing, and it has been going on all along, and should. For what drugs are available, an appointed committee decides; this a "formulary," which determines what prescription drugs are allowed to be "covered" and which will require a large "co-pay' because they are not proved to be better in a significant way than an other drug. Same goes for surgery. Just try getting a heart transplant in the UK on its universal health insurance plan. Moses had it easier with the Red Sea. Not easy.

Jeffrey Wyant

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