What would happen if we just ignored Fox? Liberals seem to be obsessed with this drivel. Just ignore them, let the wingnuts watch.

Thanks Steve, you have confirmed what I suspected. All the off the wall ill timed crazy coming out of the right wing these days is needed to keep ratings pumped at FOX news. I suspect that, just like CNN and MSNBC, they have lost a lot of casual viewers to non-news channels. Apparently they are making up for their losses in casual viewers by increasing the intensity of their hard core base. I wonder how many actual viewers FOX has lost? Is there any way to measure that number.

I suspect there's a non-trivial number of liberals who watch Fox as well simply for the entertainment value of seeing what the nation of Wingnuttia is up to.

People tend to forget that Fox's greatest successes ratings wise came during the Clinton adminstration. As Steve said, they do best when they can scream, shout and throw tantrums on a regular basis. Basically they're behavior can be compared to any 4 year old.

Exactly right. The Conservative movement is, at its core, a protest movement, and that is what FOX does. The April "tea parties" it both organized, promoted and "covered" is a perfect example of that. FOX likes to say that its rating increases shows the country is moving in a conservative direction. But the fact is that conservatives are rather bored by the hum drum of actual governing. They are out to wreck things, that is what they got into politics for to begin with. So the fact that Democrats are now in power makes them, in their own weird way, happy as clams. I think it was former Nixon analyst Kevin Phillips who said that politics is mostly about organizing hate.

I think part of the dynamic is that while the other news channel discussions are little more than strategy sessions for how to rebuild the Republican party, there is a definite woe-is-me quality to them. Fox News, by contrast, has become the Baghdad Bob we-got-'em-right-where-we-want-'em channel. Fox viewers tend to like that absolute certainty comfort zone.

When reality keeps slapping you around the face and calling you stupid, it's nice to have an entire network dedicated to telling you comforting lies about how great you are.

Or, to put it another way, Fox News is Emo Music for the Right.

There's also a simple math to it: Fox is the only 24-hour extremist right network. The moderate and liberal viewership is divided among CNN, MSNBC, major networks, Comedy Central, internet fact-checking (including Washington Monthly), and even newspapers, not even counting plain ol'sane people. Because they have the corner on the obsessive loony market, is it this really a fair and balanced ratings report? (I'm not suggesting treachery at Nielsen, just an acknowledgement of FauxNews's weird place in our society.)

Fox allows them to circle the rhetorical wagons, where they can all scream at one another and reassure themselves that those within the circle actually represent a majority of Americans. Indeed, movement types seem to think Fox's ratings are somehow more indicative of where the country's at politically than last November's election.

cypat, other than mocking the nonsense at Fox, I'm not sure liberals pay much attention to the drivel. Honestly, the only time I'm aware of various Fox 'news' segments is the mocking on the progressive blogs.

Steve, that analysis sounds about right. In a conversation I had with my parents over Christmas, I mentioned that that 2008 election might be what the doctor ordered for Fox and other right-wing media. The Democratic Party had just rolled the Republicans in consecutive election cycles, a dweeb and a woman (gasp); Reid-Pelosi) were majority leaders in Congress and to top it off a multi-racial, man of the world was President. The Village of Wingnuttia couldn't ask for more.

Plus, they (right wing) get the bonus of not actually having to deal with facts when innuendo works great; it's general purpose and doesn't take a lot of intelligence to do it. Ex; "Isn't it interesting that..", "Some people are saying..", etc., not to mention budgets and healthcare options that are numberless and don't seem to have much thought put into them. When you can make shit up and not be held accountable, it's fairly easy to generate a lot of talking points.

I guess my question is this; is it better for the Administration/Congressional leaders to ignore this shit, or to have someone addressing only the most egregious nonsense?

It's pretty much a stretch to call what on cable (Fox, CNN, MSNBC) or the networks or the print media or even (pace Washington Monthly) news anymore. I'm just sick to death of all the screaming and snarking (from the right and the left) and the constant "analysis" of whose on top for 2012. The country is in a f'ng meltdown with unemployment out the roof, many more folks are underemployed or in work but furloughed or taking pay cuts, etc. and all the media (msm, cable, and -- yes -- the blogosphere) want to do is shout and give us their mostly uniformed opinion. Wall to wall Michael Jackson [sad for his family, sad for his fans but Eric Michael or is it Michael Eric Dyson calls out Obama for not issuing some kind of more definitive official statement?), Mark and Jenny Sanford and Maria spin out their love triangle to an audience of millions -- WTF? LA is broke and they are 'co-sponsoring' a memorial service for MJ at a place that holds 20,000 and are setting up facilities for overflow? I'd love to see the police overtime for that!!

There's no point even decrying bread and circuses anymore because no one wants anything else, including the so-called new media.

So yeah, it makes sense that the station with the most bread and biggest circus wins -- ergo, Fox.

oops -- make that uninformed - not uniformed - opinion. Most of the so-called newspeople out there today are actually pretty undereducated and it appears that the vast majority of them failed basic logic.

Uh, Fox, in many markets, is the only cable news show available on basic cable and satellite packages.

Faux News is what it is because it's allowed to be so.

The First Amendment says that they can say pretty much what they want. "Obama is the Anti-Christ!" "Michelle Bachmann is NOT insane!"

What bothers me is not so much the lies of FNC, but the fact that no one outside the blogosphere ever calls them on it. As long as the mainstream networks and newspapers ignore the growing extremism of Billo, Sean, and Glenn, they give Faux an air of legitimacy that they wouldn't dream of giving the similar Patriot movement, for example.

But they're all corporations and Villagers, and they're too busy sleeping with each other to go to war with each other.

We lose.

"Only totalitarians are upset about the existence of contrary views. Rather than whine try to educate yourself and to answer rationally the arguments of those of differing views."

It's not that Fox presents contrary views. It's that Fox injects lies, stupidity, hysteria and irrationality into the public discourse. How does one rationally answer someone like Glenn Beck, who proclaimed that he "wasn't sure" if the U.S. government was building internment camps for a future fascist crackdown.

You can't have a reasonable discussion with an unreasonable person. The problem with Fox isn't that it's conservative, but that it's unreasonable.

Mike

A lot of people are out of work and want to channel their anger?

mhr: Why does it disturb you so much that others don't agree with you? What world, what country have you grown up in? The United States of America historically has been home to people with widely differing points of view, from Jefferson and Hamilton down to the present. Are you not aware of the history of your own country?- assuming you are an American. Many Americans, of course, do not know the history of their country.

MHR, I think the difference a lot of us feel here is that what FOX does is not the news. It's near constantly editorialized opinion that continually slants in one direction only. I would wager that most frequent readers of this blog would readily hold accountable any news organization that plays as loose and frothy with the truth as FOX "news" usually does, no matter what the political direction.

Now, I watch Keith and Rachel from time to time for their opinions. But I believe that, for the most part, the regular news gotten from CNN, MSNBC, the networks and NPR comes with less institutional bias. Not so on FOX. That network has made no secret of its mission to promote its news with an obvious conservative bias.

Realistically, no news outlet, reporter, etc. is completely without bias. But, most reputable news organs make a goal of impartiality. FOX does not. Ipso facto: they ain't news.

I would be most interested to know if the number of TV news watchers has gone down because most people I know don't even watch Fox news or any TV news programs on a regular basis.

Fox has never catered to an informed audience and seems intent to cultivate ignorance and misinformation. So if their ratings soar then it has to be because they are motivating that 25%loyal Bushie crowd to watch while most of the intelligent informed populace aren't watching TV news shows at all. Fox ratings relate only to those watching TV at all but after the elections exposed the vileness of TV coverage, who would want to watch it.

Ampliphying ignorance, stupidity and propaganda into a circus always draws a crowd.

fauxnews isn't a news organization in the traditional sense of the term...they're an advocacy outlet...they exist to amplify whatever today's rnc talking points are...

the reason fox does best in the ratings is that they're cornered the market on crazies. it's the only game in town if you're searching for that "alternative reality," charles krauthammer recently expressed admiration for....

The flip-side of this effect would be waning popularity for the (slightly) leftish media outlets coinciding with the Democratic Party's ascendance. Wonder if that is happening.

But since there really is no leftish equivalent of Fox news, it's hard to say. Interest in political news would naturally decline a bit after an election...

Hatred of Bush and his aggressive, illegal, preemptive wars seemed to be a mobilizing and radicalizing force early this decade. Where do those people and that energy go now?

Wonder if leftie blog traffic has fallen off. I can imagine leftie blogs feeling their way in this new paradigm - do they go all out as home team cheerleader, or remain cynical and critical of politicians as they were before?

Maybe it depends on their career aspirations: low-level apparatchik in the Obama administration, propaganda/script writer/mouthpiece or a writer who cares about the truth of what he is saying.

mhr...Posted by: mhr on July 3, 2009 at 2:08 PM |

There you go trying to use logic to justify insanity. These aren't "differing opinions", opposing arguments on Faux...it's pure propaganda, lies and insanity. Divisive rhetoric meant to encourage anger and hatred for corporate greed. Yours is like saying the lynch mob just has a differing opinion.

Fox even went to the SC to make sure they could "legally" lie, just make stuff up and call it news. That corporation is a prime mover for the complete destruction of our democracy. That they are contemptible willful liars is a "fact" not an opinion.

They have been exposed over and over and over for lying campaigns and willful propaganda yet are allowed as a catch 22 to the 1st amendment. Tolerated helplessly as the 'Madrid' to
America's idealism, doing to America what Madrid did to the knights of the round table and Arthur's Round Table.

Media consolidation was the worst thing that ever happened to the 'fourth estate' and Fox is nothing but the breeders of ignorance, fear and hatred, and are clearly instigators of violence.

O'Reilly should be thankful they no longer rip people's tongues out for sedition and incitement to murder. I would question the critical abilities of anyone who did not "hate Fox news" for what they have done and are doing to our beloved country.

Freedom fighters do not make sure those who are destroying our nation have the freedom to do so and the last 30 yrs could not be any clearer who is doing so as evidenced by the condition our nation is in. One would be hard pressed to find any thing good Fox has ever said about democrats or democratic leaders...(only when public opinion is overwhelming have they ever said anything good about Obama.) They are not instigating a revolution ... just a civil war.

Whoops....that was supposed to be... Arthur's 'Camelot' not 'round table' in above statement. Fixed.

I guess my question is this; is it better for the Administration/Congressional leaders to ignore this shit, or to have someone addressing only the most egregious nonsense?
Posted by: Ken

We need people addressing the nonsense. Even though many will still believe, it looks weak to let things pass and there are plenty on the fence who appreciate confident rebuttals going up against rubbish. BTW mhr's rebutters get it: Faux is bad in principle about dishonesty etc, it isn't just a case of "viewpoint."

MHR raises a very serious question. What's wrong with people liking a conservative-leaning FOX that most of us on this site detest?. Aren't we supposed to encourage dissent and free speech. Yes, but FOX is not just another network with a conservative point of view that's ready to make a strong case for its side. It's a network with a very sophisticated understanding of public opinion, how it is formed, how it responds more to metaphorical rhetoric ("support the troops," "blame America first crowd") than empiracle debate, and how it can be moved and manipulated to support a given agenda -- even against its own interests. FOX in other words traffics in propaganda.

Take the Olberman-O'Reilly feud for example. Keith very openly says that he is a liberal commentator. He makes no bones about the fact that if you watch his show you are going to listen to someone who will present the news from a liberal perspective and generally in support of Democrats. O'Reilly on the other hand pretends to Solomon-like objectivity, giving pronouncements on right-thinking like Zeus from Mount Olympus, a place he calls his "The No Spin Zone" where O'Reilly presents Reality Itself.

Notice also the attempt by FOX to monopolize the channels of communication, in much the same way that revolutionaries go after the state radio station as their first act when staging a coup. A regular feature of FOX programming is to incessently complain that any criticism of FOX is waged by people who can't stand abide dissenting opinion that conflicts with their own. Of course, they do this while at the same time spending an inordinate amount of time discrediting the credibility of ANY competing media. O'Reilly, for example, never spits out the words New York Times (which he spits out a lot) without first affixing the modifier: "Far Left."

That's not competing media, or one that aims to do nothing more than introduce conservative notions into the Marketplace of Ideas so that they can receive free, fair and equal treatment. That's an ideological propaganda machine trying to dominate the nation's culture and politics by any means fair or foul -- and using a free press's aspirations of fairness, balance and objectivity against it.

The dishonest and manipulative tactics used by the FOX propaganda machine are familiar to anyone who knows anything about communications theory. Of course, being experts and probably college professors, those who are knowlegable about media theory would undoubtably also be dismissed by FOX announcers as being Leftists determined to censor anyone who dissents from the liberal party line.

Liberals hate Fox News with a passion because it shows that in terms of popularity, the conservative viewpoint trumps the liberal viewpoint. Fox News stands out from the pack because it does not try to shroud itself in journalistic non-partisanship; they tell you up front they report the news and they tell you up front their commentators are conservative.

Compare that with the liberal MSM, which buries stories on Obama, but smears Republicans and conservatives every chance they get while throwing softballs at every liberal/Democratic interview.

The people have suffered through the liberal MSM for years. They have welcome hope and change - Fox News - with open arms.

Olbermann show has tanked because Americans really don't want to listen to him harping on Americans, especially our troops.

Please note that the "ratings" metric is misleading. CNN actually leads all networks in total exposure even though their shows are not rated nearly as high. In today's market, total exposure is what really counts. Who cares in Bill O is getting 4 million viewers when CNN.com or Huff Post are getting 20 million hits.

aren't the rushbo's ratings up too? he doesn't even mention the clinton's anymore -

tJFvH9

Ohhh...how we protest so loudly as the ship sinks.

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