And the lies just keep coming. How many of you heard the latest NPR propaganda this am ? Suddenly the majority of people now oppose Obama's health care reform efforts ? Yes, just two weeks ago over 70 percent of Americans wanted a public option, a majority said they were willing to have their taxes increased to support it, and, now, two weeks later NPR has created lies and propaganda in their new 'poll' that say exactly the opposite.

I am forced to comment. Whenever I consider the work of health care reform, I go back to my father, who received a diagnosis of very obviously terminal cancer when he had no insurance. Not having any insurance was a nightmare in the diagnosis phase, and I won't go into the humiliation, insults, and general sense of despair that came with being in great pain that was pooh poohed clearly because there was no insurance to back up clinical investigation.

When it came to end of life care, however, I eventually concluded by looking at how other people had been treated, that my father was actually better off because doctors were leary of intervening too much. Their motive was wrong, but his experience of dying was probably much easier as a result of their indifference.

It really is true. Dying in a hospital is a nightmare scenario and people really need to come to terms with this.

The Republican talking points of the day included this end of life issue. It is interesting as the Republicans in their sociopathic madness project what they feel should be done with people such as murder, torture, regulate the end of life for old people. It's the Republicans that want to do it as the Republicans do not want $$$ spent on anything other than their own wealth; want to limit how many will be considered able to receive wealth.

you know, you finally start getting a little nervous at these freaking idiots -- this frightening shit is coming out of their heads, out of their speculations, imaginations... and when is it just a projection of their own desires and their own capabilities?

they are the ones with all the hate and fear coming out of their mouths all the time.

these are terribly sick people. whatta goddam country!

virginia fox is a monster. boehner, not so much... jerry mahoney material there...

Yup, got forwarded this piece of propaganda yesterday:

Page 425 of Health Care Bill - Listen to this interview Fred Thompson's Radio Show interviewing Betsy McCaughey (pronounced Mc Coy). Or look it up on www.fredthompsonshow.com, under interviews.
On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 years to learn and to choose from ways to end your suffering (and your life). Health care will be denied based on age. 500 Billion will be cut from Seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the oldest and the sickest will be cut first. Paying for your own care will not be an option.
Now, CALL YOUR PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell them to read page 425 if they don't read anything else. Surely some of them have parents.
"ON PAGE 425 OF OBAMA’S HEALTH CARE BILL, the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier. Yes...They are going to push SUICIDE to cut medicare spending!"

Of course, I did take the time to look it up (http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf ), and lo and behold, not a word about suicide, or "everyone on Social Security" etc.

It's going to take a lot of work to go through the lies one by one.

Wingnuts must think very highly of this Obama guy's abilities - to them, he first tricked people into thinking he was an American, then tricked people into making him President, and is now tricking old people into killing themselves.

Why do Republicans respect Obama's persuasive abilities this much?

This is the same Rep. Virginia Foxx who claimed that people who said that Matthew Shepard was murdered in Wyoming for being gay were perpetrating a "hoax" on the American people.

I guess once a nutcase, always a nutcase.

I was a little dismayed at Obama's response to the question in the Town Hall(although maybe what I saw was edited) - while I enjoy his attempt to defuse it with a little humor, he really should have opened with a categorical denial that anything as nutty as that was even possible.

Next thing you know the knuckleheads are going to start talking about how he's planning to recruit more employees to go door to door.....

You can't underestimate the capability of idiots.

Boehner was serious.

No, Boehner was consciously and deliberately lying.

This could have been another "teachable moment". Instead of "clarifying" what the bill said, Obama could have "clarified" what the Republicans are doing:

The opponents of health care reform keep coming up with nonsense like this. Either they're not smart enough to understand the long words in the bill, or they're deliberately lying to frighten people. And unfortunately, the "journalists" in the mainstream media refuse to call them on it.

And by the way, I know this isn't the time to debate this issue, but I support some form of euthanasia. I watched a family member die from cancer. They spent the last eight weeks of their life, either in so much pain they were weeping or on so much pain medication that they were unaware of what was happening around them. They had said 'goodbye' to all their family and friends months earlier, and had no choice but to suffer until their body finally quit.

I would love to have an option in my living will that instructs that my life should be ended when I reach such a state.

The Republican talking points of the day included this end of life issue. It is interesting as the Republicans in their sociopathic madness project what they feel should be done with people such as murder, torture, regulate the end of life for old people.

Well, if Terri Schiavo is any example of the Republican ideal....

Constitutionally-problematic or not, I miss the Fairness Doctrine -- and I sure do hope we don't need to lose the best President of my lifetime to put a proper revision of it in place.

I need medication. Could Fox really believe this? Think about this. Could an elected member of Congress really think that the President, hell, anyone, would really propose that seniors could be put in a position in which they may be put to death by their government? I know that Boner is a whore. But is she really that ignorant? Could anyone be that ignorant? No wonder why I tell my kids that most people really aren't very bright.

Ohioan: It's not that they respect his power's of persuasion, it's that they think he is a "magic negro" how has ungodly powers over everyone but them!

I was in a series of questions with AARP about why they opposed the public option. The responses I got were evasive and frankly, dishonest. All they kept mentioning was that they favored allowing everyone to retain their own insurance, but they never really addressed why they opposed the public option. The obvious reason is that AARP is big into the insurance business and makes a bundle of money from it. If you want proof, look at all the mailings you get from them offering various types of medical insurance.

...and i suppose the liberals all had the panties in a bunch when bill clinton press sec mike mccury said that republican wanted seniors to die.

didn't really mind when he lied and said it, but when obama actually wants to 'make decisions' as to whether they should get care, you scream.

did anyone tell you that you are pathetic lately?

A few goodies from questions at a health care forum conducted by my rep: this one about assisted suicide, if you lose your insurance you have to join the public plan, you are not allowed to pay for any treatment not covered by the public option, the public option is cheaper because it will be subsidized by taxpayers (the Lewin study debunks this one very well), you have to be bankrupt before you can have nursing home care paid for (sounds like a Medicaid change we had in Georgia a few years ago), small business people will have to buy insurance for their three employees, etc.

I wish we could provide end-of-life services for Virginia's mouth.

ComradAnon writes:" But is she really that ignorant? Could anyone be that ignorant?"

No, she's not; Foxx is equally as bright as Rush Limbaugh. She's just feeding the raw meat to her constituency, same as ol' Rushbo. He gets ad revenue, she gets votes.

It's the same group of under-educated, under-employed mostly Southern, mostly white males whose only hope of achievement is getting on American Idol.

It's why they buy lottery tickets. . .

"In other words, lawmakers have to hurry, and resolve differences with conservative lawmakers, because professional conservative liars are busy conning the country. It's quite a political process we have here."

Conservative, or any other group's, lies are not the problem. Our worthless media is--they have the responsibility to inform the public, and abdicated that responsibility years ago.

"And the lies just keep coming. How many of you heard the latest NPR propaganda this am?"

No kidding. It is really a sad state when Imus is more impartial and journalistic on things like health care and Gates' arrest than NPR.

Whenever a republican lies, or a troll for that matter, just ask them to prove it. They will jump around like a 10 year old doing the potty dance. They will bitch at you and they will not prove it. It's time to put an end to this lunacy. Keep on them everywhere. Tell them to just prove it.

yo said:
...and i suppose the liberals all had the panties in a bunch when bill clinton press sec mike mccury said that republican wanted seniors to die.

As far as I can tell, Republicans still don't care whether seniors -- or anyone else who's already out of the womb -- dies.

With so many people uninsured or underinsured, about 18,000 people die early every year from conditions that could be easily treated.

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10367&page=161

And yet Republicans are content to leave the system the way it is. But then, a lot of us have known all along that human life is sacred to Republicans -- but only if it doesn't interfere with corporate profits or tax cuts for millionaires.

As far as I can tell, Republicans still don't care whether seniors -- or anyone else who's already out of the womb -- dies.

They'd better care. Once the current crop of over-65s buys the farm, the whole of the GOP base will be reduced to a bunch of angry southerners with Jesus issues and a few militia types out west.

I am SO glad that Democrats in Congress are working hard to have a bipartisan compromise with these people! It's so important for people of good faith to come together honestly and work together for the good of the nation.

But seriously folks, I can't describe how fed up I am by this kind of crap. The right-wing has pulled out all the stops, and the Democrats are still pretending they have a civilized partner in negotiations. When you stick your hand out and someone shits in it, they are sending you a clear message.

Samuel Johnson once said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Mr. Johson obviously didn't foesee modern Republicans, who tink patriotism is the first refuge of a scoundrel.

What's the last? I don't know, but some of these people are pretty close. This is beyond despicable, telling the elderly that the government wants them to die. For these inhumans, tere is no "last refuge" - just when you think they've hit rockbottom, they dig a little deeper.

I'm not one to believe in the afterlife, but if I'm wrong, I hope there's a special place in hell fr these cretins.

The only time I would be fearful of government deciding who lives and dies and how, would be if the republicans were in charge.
And as someone who is using Hospice for the end of life care for my mother, I can't say enough good things about them. It is all about pain-free comfort for the end. Something the government would never understand or even try to.

...and i suppose the liberals all had the panties in a bunch when bill clinton press sec mike mccury said that republican wanted seniors to die.

Okay, I'll explain this very slowly:

When Republicans talk about taking away people's healthcare, especially Medicare for seniors, they're talking about letting people die. That's because when people, especially seniors, don't have healthcare, they're more likely to die needlessly.

When Democrats talk about making sure that seniors have things like living wills, they're not talking about letting people die. They're talking about making sure that when people die -- as we all eventually do -- their affairs are in order and their families don't have to suffer any more than necessary.

See the difference? I can explain it again if you're still confused about the difference between taking away people's healthcare and letting them make medical decisions for themselves.

Oh, and any Republican anywhere who has ever made an end-of-life or DNR decision for a relative has to STFU with the whining about how Democrats are trying to kill seniors by making sure that people can make those decisions for themselves before they get too sick to make them. Because that's all the Democrats are talking about doing, and insisting that your relative's health was your own family's business but the government should be allowed to regulate the decisions that everyone else makes about their own relatives is pretty much the height of hypocrisy.

End of life care has been one of the great failings of American medicine although I do not know whether other countries do it better. I have yet to meet a single terminal person who wants extraordinary means taken to prolong their suffering, but offering assistance to people to make their choices known is a bad thing? I thought choice was supposed to be one of the points the opponents of reform have touted. There is another talking point out there to the effect that there is unlimited demand for health care and that if we make it more affordable to poor people they will suck up all the resources for frivolous reasons. I am sure that if we insure all Americans they will be getting colonoscopies, mammograms and digital prostate exams 2 or 3 times a week.

I hate to have to say it, but there is a government program designed to kill old people.

It's called "Medicare Part D."

End of life is really something that needs to be addressed in a thoughtful and serious manner, not turned into a joke by Republicans trying to score points with the ignorant.

My mother has been dead for nine years. She was hit suddenly by a massive stroke. It was a devastating brain hemmorrage. At the emergancy room, the hospital called a number of surgeons, none of whom would take the case until they contacted some young hot shot. Of course we (my family and I) were distraught. The surgeon told us she probably wouldn't survive the operation, but if she did she could possibly just wake up and be fine. She survived the surgery, and while we were with her in intensive care the sureon came in, looked her over and started to leave. We asked him what he thought we could expect to happen. He shrugged and casually said, "Maybe some day she'll beable to pull a blanket over herself." and left.

My mother never should have been perated on. She should have allowed to go peacefully. She was cheated of her rightful death by a young surgeon who wanted to prove he could keep someone in that condition "alive." "Alive." Mentally, she recovered more than we thought, but she was an animated head on a dead body lying in a nursing home in pain and mysery for five long years.

The hospital bills were stronomical as were the nursing home expenses (plus the numerous times she ended up being taken to the emergancy room and other hosptial stays during the five years. She was on Medicare and Medicade. That was alot of money coming out of the system to prolong a dead woman's life and warehouse her in a nursing home for years.

I signed for the operation hoping he was telling us the truth that night at the hospital. If I had know he was lieing I wouldn't have. I would have said good bye to my mother and let her go in peace.

Living wills are great, but under the circumstances, our decision would have over road her living will. So I truly believe an honest discussion of end of life issues is critical and shouldn't be used as some horror show scare tactic.

Republicans are like little children, they will say or do anything for their short term goals - in this case dereail health care reform - without any thought to morality or consistency. They really do treat politics like a game apparently cushioned by enough special interest money not to have to touch down in reality. And why they drive the country into the ditch whenever they get into power. This may be pushing into a new level of grotesque for them but at this point I really don't think they have a low they won't touch, again like children who left to their own devices end up playing with their pooh.

The latest conservative fringe, rightwingnuttery, crazy talk: Obama's government healthcare is designed to kill old people! When the "birther" and the "police acting stupidly" things lose their punch, try this!

Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC)is particularly vicious. She is the same woman who, mere months ago with Shepherd's mother sitting in the chamber, claimed that the murder of homosexual Matthew Shepherd was a "hoax;" he was a shoplifter. Unbelievable!

This is the type of shameless spew that is read meat for conservative N.C. where "real" Americans ridicule intelligence, disparage education, ignore science, love their guns, Jesus, pickup trucks, their dogs, and their chew. Foxx is exciting the flag-waving, I Love My Country, federal subsidy crowd that blames minorities and the government for all of their problems.

Foxx joins Bachmann in the lunatic fringe club.

Obama needs to be more direct and forceful to kill these rumors.

we just don't have enough government workers

is not a smart reply to a person who apparently believes that he'd start asking seniors how they wish to die if he had the chance.

Her comment was

This bothers me greatly and I'd like for you to promise me that this is not in this bill.

and a smart reply would have been

No, this is absolutely not in this bill.

The notion that some will be pressured to die by government/single-payer health care is crap. We do know that existing private insurance companies cause thousands of deaths each year by denying/delaying treatment or testing. Why doesn't that Reskunklican Virginia Fauxx care about that?

And what's really scandalous is that moralizing busybodies try to keep you from ending your life *the way you want to*, as if *they* should "play God" and force you to live miserably and longer than you want to. It is morally wrong to impose "vital status" on someone, whether death on the willing to live, or life on the unwilling to live.

BTW confusing the two is typical LaRouche crap, just like his asinine, cornucopian delusion that unlimited population can be supported (like crackpot Julian Simon.) ReRushlickins learned to borrow what they need from "Democrat" LaRouche.

Lee Atwater burns in Hell, but his tactics live on. Back in '88, he used the Lyndon LaRouche Youth Movement to spread scurrilous lies about Michael Dukakis, and the disciples of Karl Rove are doing it again now. All you have to do is whisper in the ear of a paranoid, megalomaniacal cult leader that "rationing of health care" MIGHT lead to "euthanasia," and he'll take it from there, without your fingerprints on it. The LaRouchies are hyping this for all it's worth.

Unfortunately, I think these (utterly false and willfully dishonest) talking points are effective. I think of my mother-in-law -- limited education, retired, widowed, living alone, lots of health issues to be concerned about -- and realize that she's exactly the sort of person with whom this sort of (again, utterly false and willfully dishonest) argument would resonate with. I don't think it would take much to convince her that the main outcome of health care reform would be to kill off old people.

Saint Zak wrote:

Living wills are great, but under the circumstances, our decision would have over road her living will. So I truly believe an honest discussion of end of life issues is critical and shouldn't be used as some horror show scare tactic.

Absolutely. During my mother's last years, when she was beset with increasingly serious health episodes, there were several cases in which her views about what should be done differed with my sister's and mine. But in every case, we deferred to her wishes, even when we ourselves disagreed with the choice. I feel certain that, though she was competent, articulate and explicit in making her wishes known to care providers, those people would have overrided her wishes if we'd said so. A living will (she had one of those too, along with DNR orders) is a good thing to have, but I doubt it would be followed if next-of-kin objects to its provisions. A living will is not enough; you have to make sure that everyone around you understands and promises to abide by those wishes.

This just goes to show that too many of the American people (especially seniors) are ignorant about health care and a lot of other issues. They should know by a certain age that we all need living wills, especially the elderly. They should also know better than to open the front door and talk to strangers who then bilk them out of their life savings. But too often, they don't because they don't want to believe that someone "like them" (meaning a "white" person or a "black" person) would do such a thing.

But too often, they don't because they don't want to believe that someone "like them" (meaning a "white" person or a "black" person) would do such a thing.

Add "Christian" to that list -- I've noticed an increasing number of professional services companies -- from attorneys to loan agencies to insurance companies -- that explicitly present themselves in that way in their advertising. It seems really clear that the only reason to do so is to pander to evangelical customers and disarm the healthy skepticism that any prospective buyer should have.

Here's a link to the bill for any one with Adobe Acrobat. Please take note of pages 424-430, in particular. My mother is 83 years old. I can just see her sitting through a "meeting" with an already harried physician, who has to explain all of this to someone who, from time to time, isn't quite sure what day it is. And there are many nursing home residents, with out caring family or friends to offer assistance, who would agree to just about anything. I suggest you consider the plight of the elderly when questioning their concerns!
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

It was Bush who wanted to increase the levels of cyanide and other toxins in our water. The cumulative effect of such toxins would take several years off of the average life span.
That is where the RepoTaliban gets the concept. It was their idea.

Remember just about any unpleasant thing the RepuTaliban accuses Obama of, they thought of and tried to implement themselves.

And of course it is the RepoTaliban's continued insistence that middle class and poor Americans have as little access to affordable health care as possible, that will, in reality, shorten American's lives.

Get used to looking a person in the face and saying, "You are a liar."

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In 2003, under G.W. Bush, the federal Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality published a report recommending Advance Care Planning, with detailed guidelines for practitioners. Nobody called that euthanasia.

Advance Care Planning is legal in almost every state; the bill in question merely allows health care providers to be paid by Medicare for counseling patients on this matter, should the patient request this service - it would not be mandatory.

See:

http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/obama-wants-to-kill-your-grandma/

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