If Floridians don't want any of that "socialized" medicine then all of the people over 65 better be taken off of the medicare rolls.

Their constituents will still pay federal taxes to support those programs, though, so I can't imagine the voters will be too happy- or are they going to nullify IRS enforcement too? Good luck with that.

What is tremendously sad is that a great opportunity has been missed. If the Congress had tried to make Medicare universal, the Dems wouldn't be in this bind of having to remake the wheel. People know and like Medicare. They understand how it works. I realize that expanding Medicare to everyone wouldn't make insurance moguls happy, but what will other than the status quo? I don't understand why the Congress doesn't simply offer to let people opt to join Medicare as the alternative to private insurance.

Actually, it's only old people (the ones who actually use it) who like Medicare- younger people have a negative opinion of it and think it does things like assign you a doctor you have to use. I wonder where they could have gotten their misinformed ideas about Medicare, it's not like there's a political party out there constantly bashing it or anything.

I think that if the Republicans were to succeed in blocking health insurance reform in a few states it would be very beneficial to the Democratic party. But I don't think it will happen.

Florida State Senator Carey Baker (R) and State Representative Scott Plakon (R) introduced a state Constitutional amendment that, if adopted, would prevent Floridians from enrolling in any federal health care legislation.

I wonder if this means Medicare too? Just askin' since FL has so many retirees.

The idea is the doctrine of nullification or that a state can nullify any law it doesn't like. The legality of this concept was decided some 140 years ago with some military action...

I know it will come to me in a little while, but I'm sure our friends in the DEEP south remember... something about a War of Northern Aggression...

Wow, these nutbags are willing to go to any length, aren't they? To work toward denying healthcare--even if reform passes--to millions of people in their own state, is breathtaking.

And they're not doing it in some sense of 'patriotism' to stand against 'government encroachment,' I'd imagine a look at the source of a sizable amount of these politicians' contributions would reveal industry/status-quo connections.

But the even sadder thing is, if these efforts were to make it to a public vote for a constitutional amendment in FL the voters would probably vote for it, denying themselves health care to spite the 'liberal gone mad' in the White House.

Much like the states that didn't want stimulus money, maybe we should call them on it. No health care reform for FL, AZ, and TX. You want cost-cutting? There's several $billion right there.

Ann-dendum

Ann: If Floridians don't want any of that "socialized" medicine then all of the people over 65 better be taken off of the medicare rolls.

And state legislators should give up their health coverage too.
I've long wanted to see "ballot measures" that would do just that...

Too bad the Whitehouse can't use the same postal writ that my congressman uses to send everyone Medicare and VA user a letter telling them that the proposal by these GOP yahoos will cause them to lose their benefits and they will need to make plans for alternative health care if it passes.

Too bad that it was the GOP who put Medicare part D in place. the program would be better it the buying power was available.

I say let Texas and Oklahoma secede and form the country of Reaganilvania. Then offer to pay the moving expenses of anyone who emmigrates there.

Of course, we'll need to seal the borders once the epidemics caused by all the Reaganilvanians refusing vaccinations break out. But it will a wonderful example of Darwinism in action.

So aren't all elected politicians members of the Money Party? They surely act like it. How did that ever happen?

Dang it, candideinnc, you are making far too much sense, this morning.

Cutting off TX, AZ and FL could bring about that old saying by Reagan about people "voting with their feet".

The RepuGs helped thwart "The Great Society" by starving it of sufficient funds, then, braying about "all of that money was wasted on a worthless program".

But, underfunding an incomplete form of true health care change, will create a ticking clock of doom the moment it becomes law. As the prescient Krugman said of underfunding the Stimulus plan, and, the lack of cash is killing the popular "Cash for Clunkers" even while cash strapped Ford has mounted an advertising campaign for the program, placing an underfunded poorly constructed health care plan on the playing field will be a true waste of "What could have been". More and more that appears to be the epitaph being written for this administration.

Short version:

The gummint hates you. The Democraps hate you. Send me money.

Don't mess with this mess...

Texas has the highest proportion of people lacking health insurance of all 50 states; the third-highest poverty rate; the second-highest imprisonment rate; the highest teenage-birth rate; the lowest voter turnout; and the lowest proportion of high-school graduates....Texas spends less on each of its citizens than does any other state. Being a low-tax, low-spend state has not made Texans rich, though they are not dirt-poor either; their median income ranks 37th among the 50 states.

The quote is Jon Talton quoting The Economist.

I realize that I'm unfairly painting Floridians and Texans with broad strokes here, but I find it irrelevant to the argument that both states have higher than average uninsurance rates. Both Florida & Texas are full of people who think they can handle everything on their own -- Texas, being the unique, independently-minded state that they are, and Florida still having plenty of get-rich-quick under-the-radar people who don't like government much either.

So sure, they have plenty of folks who don't have health insurance. They probably like it that way. And it reminds me that this aspect of health insurance is lost on many of its proponents -- some folks gamble -- often incorrectly, as I did as a post-grad -- that they just won't need it. Convincing those people is much harder than overcoming the voices of right-wingers who hate anything socialized -- 'cause it will directly impact them the most, and they will receive the least immediate benefit.

Thankfully, these folks are also not typically politically active, but I really have sympathy for this particular argument. The primary benefactors of socialized medicine will be middle class families, not the young or rather old. So anyone have any ideas how to convince these folks who don't want insurance at all? 'Cause that body is larger than you think.

Wait, if they are basically saying this encroaches on states' rights, yet we ALMOST had that piece of shit bill allowing concealed carry that would override state laws??

There isn't enough Advil in the world to cure my headache...

Kanye West infamously said after Katrina that George Bush hates black people. W, it appears, is one of the nicer Repubs. The rest of the party just plain old hates all of humanity.

I find it irrelevant to the argument that both states have higher than average uninsurance rates

gphatty's right... I'm from the South, and the points about how many people are suffering just don't fly with these people. One, they don't buy common-good arguments in general, and two, they're usually convinced that it's all the immigrants (illegal or not) and shiftless minorities that drive their numbers down. IOW, if they just had better people-- or fewer of what they consider substandard people-- in their states, their numbers would of course improve without wasting money... after all, their white suburban areas are usually average or slightly better by these measures, which proves that they're being unfairly dragged down.

I would like to see some uninsured plaintiffs sue these neoconfederate States on some grounds. Maybe it would be, equal protection of the (national) laws, maybe some implied health-care right under A-9. Can they do it? IMHO it's worth a try.

Also, would their nutty "States rights" provision be able to kick people off *Medicare*? There would be howls ... Maybe the neosecessionistas can be put over a barrel on the consistency issue, if nothing else.

Keep it up Libs and you will force more heartfelt humanitatrian entrepeneurs in Texas to pull up stakes, such as R. Allen Stanford. The poor man was hounded by 'guvment regs and requirements to pay for the healthcare of his employees. The loss went to Texas and the gain to Antigua which offers aid and comfort to humanitarians. Yes, Bird, as a sort of Sister Teresa of the Carib, opened his coffers, er, arms to Sir Allen. Becoming another Sir Allen is all so many poor RepuGs in Texas can scheme, er, dream about. Don't spoil their dreams.

I hope those legislators are being properly compensated for making themselves out to be jackasses. Risky business.

I guess in a region where close to half the population thinks Obama wasn't actually born in Hawaii it's not too surprising that they haven't heard of the Supremacy Clause. How stupid can you be?

Apparently many people don't in fact understand Medicare. As shown by the experience of Representative Bob Inglis:
"At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to "keep your government hands off my Medicare." The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, "wasn’t having any of it."
Not a rare instance either.

if adopted, would prevent Floridians from enrolling in any federal health care legislation.

Floridians hate us for our freedoms.

berttheclock, it may be that insisting for employers to cover health insurance is not the way to go. But if like Medicare, it would be individuals w.r.t. the government directly.
"Just put everybody on Medicare" - more or less - ?

I'd just like to say, on behalf of my ancestors who fought to keep those states in the Union, once was enough.

Have a good life, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

SP says: Their constituents will still pay federal taxes to support those programs, though, so I can't imagine the voters will be too happy- or are they going to nullify IRS enforcement too?

These cracker barrel states are usually net drains when it comes to IRS taxes paid into the government. So, if they withdraw, it would actually save the rest of us money.

It's pretty hard to see courts letting stand a law prohibiting people from participating in a Federal program. Do you think a state could prohibit its citizens from, say, joining the army? Of course not. And putting it in the state constitution wouldn't change that a bit.

Steve Benen wrote: "... these efforts are a reminder of just how far off the ideological cliff some elements of the GOP have gone."

No, these efforts are a reminder that the politicians involved are bought-and-paid-for tools of the for-profit insurance corporations.

The so-called "conservative" pseudo-ideology that they prattle about is bullshit to bamboozle the gullible rubes, and is a reminder of the sneering contempt that these politicians have for the people who vote for them.

These people have the political sense of lemmings.

What republicans want to do, is fight this at the faceless federal level in committee, maybe even keep filibustering once the "why are you filibustering little jimmies operation, are you in bed with the insurance companies?" ads start... and then give up and pretend that they were in favor all along.

People may simply not believe that the French healthcare system is better, and they may have their doubts about Canada, and they may even be a bit fatalistic about health, but they wont accept that their family just across state lines has better healthcare because of some stupid law. Especially if they paid taxes for it.

Republicans are idiots. By giving up on catholic hispanics they became somewhat strategically challenged but with stunts like this, and refusing federal stimulus money they reached Darwin award levels of stupid.

And by the way, Mr Baker and Mr. Plakton (and your Texas kin), may I call you John C. Calhoun? Interposition and nullification worked so well the first time. The only people that have tried it since were Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, and George Wallace--company I know you are proud to share. Didn't work out so well for them, either. But, don't let history hit you in the fanny on the way to a nonsensical protest.

Charles Moore

I believe the issue of "nullification" was settled in 1111832. during the famous face-off between Adnrew Jackson and that great Southern traitor, John C. Calhoun.

It's amazing how these morons continue on with crap that was settled 177 years ago.

I'll bet those two half-wits in Florida are both from Hillbilly World, aka the Florida Panhandle.

baker and plakon might want to recall that florida voted for obama ... and as lindsey graham says, elections have consequences

I thought I had stopped being surprised by the depths of Republican stupidity and moral bankruptcy. I was wrong.

That's why Kucinich's amendment that 13 Repubs voted for on the Ed and Labor Committee was so stupid. Repubs would love to tie yup any reform in the courts for a decade.

Are you opposed to nullification in every situation, or just this one?

How about, for example, the 13 states that are nullifying federal drug laws by legalizing medical marijuana in direction contravention to what the feds say they can do?

That's certainly a good cause, in my opinion.

This is what I just wrote to those two putzes: As

I sit here typing this, my hands are shaking.

They are shaking with anger and pain. You must be one of the lowest of the low to even attempt to take away health care from the people of Florida before we even get it.

I pay 24 thousand dollars a year in health care premiums for a family of four through my small business. With premiums going up 15 percent every year on your precious private market, how long do you think it will be before I will have to forgo having health insurance so that I can EAT, and put a roof over my family's head.

Shame, shame, shame on you. You people, the people who are trying in every way to prevent the rest of America from obtaining what the elderly and veterans take for granted, federally guaranteed PUBLIC health care, are vile and wicked. Anything to forward your own bent political agenda, no matter who it hurts. I cannot believe that I live in a state that has people like you making decisions for people like me. How dare you, really. What you are proposing is not just unconstitutional, but despicable.
If the public health option passes, it will be a great day for America as we join every other civilized, modern society from Israel to Switzerland to Japan in providing affordable health care for our citizens.

I know the rest of the people representing the citizens of Florida will vote this measure down, but you should really take a look in the mirror so that you can see a person who would have blood on his hands if he had the power.

If they don't want it, fine, let them opt out. Put the opt-out right in the bill. Better yet, they might secede and we should encourage it.

Let the red states sink into the third world where they belong.

"Are you opposed to nullification in every situation, or just this one?" Michael Boldin @ 4:55 PM.
If I understand correctly, there is no valid "nullification" theory; at least, not since 1865. The only legal option open to any citizen or state of the US is to sue in court, on the grounds of unconstitutionality. Any citizen still has the right, of course, to openly defy the law and dare the government to charge them.
I think what is being practised by the Federal government in those localities could more correctly be termed as a form of "benign neglect" (or "let sleeping dogs lie"?), since enforcing the laws would most probably cause more harm than good.
At the very least to any administration that strictly enforced them, anyway.

Just as a point of information...
Florida is not a red state...voted for Obama. South Florida in particular is solidly blue.

Why is this even a federal issue? Massachusetts adopted government-run health care, so why not leave it up to each state? Do a search to see if that program was successful.

People in Florida, Texas, and Arizona have different culture and opinions than other states. Let their own people decide rather than force this down their throats.

Being a Utah health insurance underwriter for www.BenefitsManager.net and www.DentalInsuranceUtah.net I have the opportunity to consult within many state insurance committee meetings. Some interesting changes took place in Utah with the passage of House Bill 188 that other states should pay attention to and perhaps the federal legislation. The bill created a state insurance pool requiring private health insurance carriers to come together and underwrite risk. Through governmental guidelines (which I have traditionally opposed in the past) they created a arena of underwriting rules that essentially guarantees the participating insurance carriers a ?no loss? or ?no gain? over each other. What this essentially means is that they pool the underwriting medical risk and spread it evenly among each carrier. All the sudden, we see guaranteed issued policies. We see rates drop by as much as 13% In Utah, our average monthly family rate is $867 for a $500 deductible plan. Some of the family rates within the ?Utah Insurance Exchange Portal? are approaching $700.00 now. To see more of HB 188 and see how Utah wrangled change without increasing taxes or rationing go to: http://www.prweb.com/releases/utah_health_insurance/health_care_reform/prweb2614544.htm
The private insurance sector can be corralled into cooperation where they can meet their goals. You have to understand that health insurance carriers are only looking for a 4-5% administration fee. That is it and they are more efficient as compared to a governmental portal that will cost more money. Take a look at Utah folks!

I'm a small business owner in Arizona. I do not provide health care coverage to my employees. Instead I pay them more and let them decide for themselves if they need health insurance and what coverage level is right for them. I believe this to be their right. If you read the US Constitution as well as subsequent Supreme Court decisions you'll understand the views of Florida, Texas and Arizona. US Government interference with my in-state business is unconstitutional. This is something that needs to be dealt with on a state to state basis.

The majority here, like the majority of Americans, are idiots. Did you BOTHER to go read the ACTUAL legislation? Or did you just take the biased slant given by the media? Swallowed it whole like a big dumb bass dint 'cha...

The proposed legislation prevents the citizens of the state(s) involved from being _forced_to_participate - it does NOT prevent them from volutarily participating (Medicare anyone?)

Additionally it will set up some VERY interesting legal ramifications as to the fines\taxes proposed to be collected throught the IRS for those who choose not to participate...

Do your own research before you make fools of yourselves - I commend these legislators for their courage in supporting the individual right to CHOOSE...

Additionally - why could this not be accomplished (along with any other "Social Program"...) by a pay to play system?

The Government issues you a card when you voluntarily pay (say like a social security or medicare card?) and you get the proposed benefits of said system. If you do not have (or cannot prove that you have) a membership\card - you have to find your own solution...AND we as a society accept the fact that people who choose not to play - may not get treatment as a consequence of their choices.

Oh yeah, it CANT WORK unless we force the distribution of costs onto those who may never need the services they are paying for...steal from Peter to pay Paul. Unfortunately Paul gets to vote for those who favor such a plan...this should end well.

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