You have to admit, those are some pretty creative stories conjured by the right about the Clintons.

You are right about the unhinged element of so called 'right wing' ideology. We have seen this many times down through history. It begins with Authoritarianism elevated to an absolute--and then any and every means justify the continued totalitarian hold onto authority, largely through exploiting fear and other emotional carry overs from the Alligator brain. Their tools are mystification, mythification, reification, and terror. Consider the type of personality that then identifies with and wants to serve an authoritarian movement. You are either one of us, in which you will conform to our standards, or you are the enemy and must be ground under our heel. Reason and enlightenment does not enter into it. Loyalty and honor are BIG values--obedience is mandatory. You don't question or challenge authority--you obey it.

Mussolini famously said "We think with blood and earth". Which is another way of saying we don't think at all.

This of course, is anathema to the children of the Age of Reason and The Enlightenment which inspired the founders of the American experiment. And it is inimical to the spirit of Science. When it has its way, it always produces Dark Ages.

The Clintons decorated the White House Christmas tree with condoms and drug paraphernalia.

How did I miss this one?! This is fabulous.

Rep. Dan Burton issued more than 1,000 subpoenas all by himself. Then, when the Dems took over the House, he had the stunning audacity to WARN the Dems that issuing subpoenas against the Bush team should be sparingly or rare or it might look lik abuse of power.

While it's true, Steve, that the "sensible" democrats kept so-called lefty nutters at bay, most of what these wild-eyed hippies were claiming was true.

Cheney (et cabal) did sanction war crimes, they did manufacture evidence, they did spy on their own citizens, they did interfere with the democratic process, they did drive the economy off the cliff at the end of their term.

So it's more than a matter of conservatives embracing their fringe while "serious" liberals keep theirs at arm's length; the real issue is the twisted rightwing discourse that dominates US politics even as the majority are seeking progressive solutions.

Respecting and heeding the criticisms of these clear-eyed citizens would have saved the country much grief during the Bush years. Instead they were treated as pariahs, even by their cowed and trembling centrist allies.

Sane, rational and compassionate people enable those on the right. I have a sister that has crossed over to the Dark Side. She attends Tea Party events, blogs viscious smears and rants about anything left of Goldwater, thinks Glenn Beck is a towering intellectual and advocates the killing of abortion doctors and others she disagrees with. After a period of pleading with her to seek psychological help I've thrown in the towel and made it known her communications are unwelcome and she needn't ever get near me. She's my sister but she's nuts and dangerous and a corrosive influence on those around her and in some small measure the nation as a whole. My point is the people we see at town hall meetings shutting down discussion need shunned. They need ostrasized by their co-workers, their relatives, their friends, acquaintances, and peers. Don't patronize their businesses, attend their parties, advance their careers, help them paint the garage or drive them to chemo. They must become non-people to everyone wanting to help this nation progress and grow. They must be the flower in the pot you neither water or fertilize, left to whither and die. Stop enabling them. In any fashion. Make them ghosts in your life, no more real than the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.

Steve, you should write a book, for this is a widespread phenomenon. These poor people need help. I suggest the title, They Scream When They See The Light.

"while the Democratic mainstream keeps its nuttier members at arm's length" -

Do you mean the way your friend Blue Girl (along with Warren Street) claims that John McCain blew up the USS Forrestal, Mr Benen? WaMo surely has some sort of connection to the "Democratic mainstream", though I acknowledge that's it's not the same sort of cache as committee chairman status.

Or pretty much anything Pete Stark says (he's a sub-committee chair, IIRC).

Or the embrace of Seymour Hersh's conspiracy of the week (I'm thinking of the whole JSOC death squad thing) by HuffPost and any number of other lefty blogs. Not as bad as Dan Burton perhaps, but is it really any different in terms of "mainstream" to the Democratic Party than Jerry Falwell is to the Republican party?

Doesn't this whole post rely on a very subjective, and probably very, very movable, assessment on the part of one Steve Benen about who and what constitutes "mainstream"?

I say this not in an effort to change the subject - I stipulate that the Republican party has plenty of idiots spouting lunacy running around. But don't kid yourself. Any group that has an agenda (whether honorable or not) that is tied up in politics is going to have some sub-population that believes that their agenda is so very, very important that they will convince themselves (consciously or not) that any level of derangement in it's pursuit is acceptable. To the extent that Democrats have recently done better than Republicans, well, great - but don't expect it to be some sort of life long condition.

Oh, and since I brought it up - What happened to Blue Girl (actually what she did to herself) is a shame - formerly one of the truly bright lights of the moderate progressive community, she's transformed into a nasty, dishonest, crass, petty and above all, profoundly stupid bad joke of a blogger.

hotrod done ground his ax into a butter knife.

Ah hotrod, throw out Blue Girl and the occasional Hersh misfire and suddenly the Left is just as rife with whackos as the Right. On any single evening's programming of Fox News more deranged individuals parade across the screen than a month's worth of Lefty spittle. I think if I want to peer into the under belly of this nation reading any 3 pages of Mr. Hersh would be more illuminating than Ann Coulter's entire body of work. Please, peddle your false equivalencies elsewhere, they're too easily seen by those here for their lunacy.

Sounds like Steve Duncan needs some help. "non-persons"?? When should we have our Krystallnacht?

Who the fuck is bluegirl? I have never heard of her, and I read this blog every day. Huffpo is kind of a mess, so I don't go there unless it's linked. I also read, sporadically, DailyKos, Balloon Juice, Eschaton, Talking Points Memo, and SadlyNo! If I haven't heard of Bluegirl, the odds that she is being accepted into the mainstream of EVEN left blogistan is minimal.

And Benen's point is that the OFFICIAL POLITICAL PARTY keeps left wing wackos at arm's length. I would explain the point, but it was clear in the main post.

Dear hotrod: anonymous blogger "Bluegirl" != chairman of a Congressional Committee.

Hope this helps!

Two comments - First, Bob Somerby has done yeoman's work for years - As an educator, he learned to keep superb archives.

Secondly, hotrod, your timing gear is shot.

inkadu, it has been an honor to correspond with Global Citizen/Blue Girl for years. She has also done a yeopersons work. With her tremendously busy medical schedule, I do not unterstand how she finds the time to be so active in political web logging. She has been included in the large blogging conventions and you will find her sites listed on many other liberal blog sites. Yeah, that red head is one tough activist - Hotrod, you really, really do not want her for an enemy.

Sounds like Steve Duncan needs some help. "non-persons"?? When should we have our Krystallnacht?
Posted by: grinning cat

Sounds like a course in reading comprehension might be in order for you, cat. And a more thorough understanding of the history of Nazi Germany might prevent you from making such profoundly stupid comments in the future.

Can somebody post a link that debunks the Mena Arkansas/Ollie North/Contra cocaine story? I've never seen a convincing debunking of it.

With her tremendously busy medical schedule, I do not unterstand how she finds the time to be so active in political web logging.

What are you talking about? She hasn't had a job for many years.

inkadu - if you haven't heard of BlueGirl - then, I'm sorry, but you haven't read this blog for very long, at least not as long as I have

one caveat (possible mea culpa) - BlueGirl's "status" as a friend to Steve Benen is her own claim - if I'm mistaken (don't think I am), then I apologize. Will go back and try to find the link.

"And Benen's point is that the OFFICIAL POLITICAL PARTY keeps left wing wackos at arm's length. I would explain the point, but it was clear in the main post. "

No, it's not - not if Jerry Falwell's appearance on MTP post-conspiarcy thory is somehow representative of "OFFICIAL" acceptance. We can argue media bias all day - but is it Steve's position that the Republican apparatus directly books MTP guests?

Someone needs to make a video compilation of the Heroes of Madness. Maybe start with Zel Miller, clips of Falwell and Robertson, the Brooks Bros. riot of 2000, featuring the infamous Curious George with Obama pin guy, and not forgetting McCain's wonderful encounter with the "he's a muslim" lady. Then on to Beck, Hannity and Limbaugh. Maybe then hotrod will get it.

not forgetting McCain's wonderful encounter with the "he's a muslim" lady

Watching the MSNBC clip of the inimitable Orly Taitz, the third baseman observed that there's a scary hair motif that could serve as a memorable visual marker in any GOP Loons' Greatest Hits production.

TV preacher Jerry Falwell, a self-proclaimed Christian leader, peddled a nauseating video with lurid conspiracy theories -- and was nevertheless invited onto Meet the Press as a guest.
----------------------------

Strike "nevertheless" and substitute "result" for "guest".

If anything, Steve understated the difference between the two parties: "...while the Democratic mainstream keeps its nuttier members at arm's length...." What nutty members in the Dem mainstream? Is there a single Dem member of Congress who can compare to Bachman or Burton for nuttiness? Is there even a single Dem member of Congress who can compare to Tom Delay for sheer nasty hatefulness? And Delay wasn't on the fringe of the Congressional Republican party; he was its leader. There is a nutty left in this country, but they're completely marginalized; most probably don't consider themselves Democrats. The nutty right, on the other hand, is a major force in the Republican party.

The quality of left and right wing wackiness is so different; the right wing invents very personal stories while the left wing sees political conspiracies. The Clintons murdered their friends, hung crack spoons on the Christmas tree and killed cats to send a message. Meanwhile the Bush team is said to have ignored Katrina because NOLA was home to Democratic voters, they lied about yellowcake to give themselves cover to start a war, they conspired with one of their supporters to alter the electronic vote totals in Ohio. The quality of the accusations is very different. I've noticed that on various message boards. Conservatives criticize personal aspects of the Obamas while liberals tend to criticize policy and actions on the other side. It's not 100%, of course, but it's pretty pronounced.

Oh, and John McCain did crash three planes while in the Navy, one of which did start a fire on the USS Forrestal resulting in a death. That's documented.

Shortstop,

BlueGirlRedState is not what we are discussing? Is someone else using her Blue Girl?

"Oh, and John McCain did crash three planes while in the Navy, one of which did start a fire on the USS Forrestal resulting in a death. That's documented." -

Sigh. Bullshit. You've just accused a US Serviceman of, effectively, causing the death of dozens of sailors. The death toll was horrific - around 100, IIRC. Will look it up later. That you claim it resulted in "a death" means you don't know what you're talking about. I could argue with you - but that would make it a technical argument, people's eyes would glaze over, and the people who were predisposed to believe - will believe it and change the channel. Which is what people like BG want - and Vince Foster consipacy theorists want. And lots of other people want.

What happened to Bluegirl's site? I used to stop by once every few months out of curiosity. Now I can't get there via my bookmark, links from other sites, or google search? The messages either say 'forbidden'? or that I appear to be an automated visitor.

Steve writes:"insane ideas popular with far-right activists are quickly embraced by the GOP mainstream."

What bothers me, is that these insane ideas are given legitimacy by the MSM. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

134 deaths

Well, bert, the better known Blue Girl is in Ohio, but yes, the Missouri version has been a full-time blog hobbyist for years.

You're right, he didn't crash that plane. However, he did crash three planes and take out the power to some area of Spain "clowning" by his own admission. People read articles, misremember them, and get facts confused. Claiming that the Clintons hung "coke spoons" on a Christmas tree or murdered Vince Foster doesn't come from a mental rearrangement of facts, it's generated de novo.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html

Claiming that John McCain caused a rocket to fire off from an aircraft behind him on the Forrestal's flight deck through a "wet start" (BG's and Warren Street's claim) is most certainly de novo.

Look, I'm really not trying to trade snark - will post again in a little bit and try to explain my perspective.

insane ideas popular with far-right activists are quickly embraced by the GOP mainstream

Yup. Such beliefs include the notion that lowering taxes increases revenue, that taxing the rich is "punishing success," that the Democrats propose "socialized medicine," that abstinence-only education works, that invading Iraq was a good idea, that the US should spend more on the military than the rest of the world combines and that big business polices itself in a lax regulatory atmosphere.

Thanks, Shortstop - It was that lovely KC lady to which I was referring. So, as Emily would say to one and all - Never Mind.

That is, except for the Bob Somerby part.

No, it's easy to get poorly remembered facts confused. John McCain did crash 3 planes (which most Navy pilots don't get to do). John McCain was involved in the USS Forrestal fire. John McCain admits that he indulged in dangerous behavior that resulted in accidents. It's easy to get those facts somewhat confused. Bill Clinton had a womanizing problem, but jumping from there to the Clintons murdering an assortment of people is a whole different level of crazy. Jumping from Bill Clinton was unfaithful to his wife to he committed murders and then getting treated with respect when you appear on Meet the Press takes the crazy to an unbelievable level.

So hotrod's entire argument boils down to: left-wing bloggers are as bad as right-wing Congressmen and the MSM.

Yeah. Right. Nice try, but *FAIL*.

J Bean, man, I know you're trying - but, no - that's not what it was - if you think it is, then I want to know where the term "wet start" came from

http://bluegirlredmissouri.blogspot.com/search?q=forrestal

'bluegirlredmissouri"

Ah, so I was correct in correcting the sputtering spark plug blackened hotrod - It was Global, to which he was referring. Hotrod, you need more than a tuneup - Your crankcase is shot.

I'm unclear on where you corrected me, Bert, though I do regret the confusion. I believe your debate on which BG was with Shortstop.

FTR - I have never meant anyone other than the BG of (currently) www.theygaveusarepublic.com .

c4logic -

"public pronouncements"?

Would appreciate a link.

"hunch"?

you've got to be kidding me.

Found the link c4logic apparently used - won't link to it, though it's easy to google - C4logic left out the excerpt about the "Zionists" covering up the scandal. Go figure.

"So hotrod's entire argument boils down to: left-wing bloggers are as bad as right-wing Congressmen and the MSM."

Uh, no.

This isn't an equivalence argument. I will stipulate (again) that there are some real whack jobs in the right and/or GOP. Many of the gripes that I hear coming from the left boil down to "FOX news said ....". As I rarely watch TV news, I'm reluctant to say Group A is worse than Group B BUT I will say that for the last three to four years when I've heard someone saying something really stupid/scary, it's been somewhat more likely to be coming from the right. Probably less of a margin than most of you would think, but it's there.

My argument is that the point that Steve seems to be trying to make - which I gather to be that the Democratic Party and/or left is more resistant to the instinct to go totally loony, either on structural or traditional grounds - is simply badly wrong. Again - if it’s worked that way the last few years… good on ‘ya. Keep it up. But don’t (PLEASE) think you’re immune/naturally resistant.

A couple of points -

-IMO, the single biggest factor in the right’s dysfunctions of the last few years has been its anti-intellectualism, at least when it has taken the form of trashing experience and competence. Assuming you agree, at least to some degree, please look at the trashing of “Very Serious People” narrative of a year or so ago that made its way around lefty blogs and think about whether it was a mostly healthy thing or not. I think anti-intellectualism could easily take hold - which could lead to the same sort of environment where you can say anything and no one will tell you to sit down and shut up. Just something to think about.

-Go back to Steve’s post. There are a few references there, but only one relates to an official - Burton. All the rest are peripheral, hard to quantify elements of the “machine”. I would suggest that this reinforces the point that there is a huge, inherently subjective component to this. That does NOT mean that we shouldn’t talk about it. Just that it’s hard to see that kind of a failing sneaking up on you, and you tend to think the other guy is doing you really dirty, and that you aren’t doing the same thing. E.G. I’m still a little unclear on why Dan Burton is the perfect representation of the Republican party, while Pete Stark is just some random whacko who tries to pick fights in committee hearings. Human nature, not a failing particular to one party or another. Particularly in a world where the politically inclined tend to self-select into common groups fairly quickly.

-The personal part of this for me led to the reference to BG. You’ll won’t hear me attack specific politicians. The reason for that is that I have ties to the military. One, fairly self-obvious thing, I would think, that you don’t do in the military is talk shit about people getting killed. BG spread that sick fucking story about McCain blowing up the Forrestal. Without going into a lot of detail - to call it a straight up lie is to give it too much credence (dig into it on google if you want). The point of the BG reference isn’t that she’s representative of the entire party - I don’t believe the party took up that meme, though it does seem like something that might have been sourced out of the dirty trick bag. It’s that a previously thoughtful, decent person who could find it in themselves to accuse a serviceman of getting people killed without evidence is capable of saying ANYTHING. I now have no doubt that BG would accuse ANY Soldier of getting people killed, if she thought it would spread her narrative or elect her candidate. It’s that egregious. And if she could do it (and she was a fairly mainstream, if low profile, lefty blogger), then who else? It’s NOT guilt by association, or false equivalence, no matter how much you want it to be.

hotrod, the thing you have yet to address is that your examples, even if they were all exactly as you perceive them to be, do nothing to contradict, or even address, Steve's point. There is no equivalency between the examples Steve cites -- Republican Congresscritters, Republican pundits, Republican radio and television hosts -- and the examples you cite.

That there are fringers on both sides of the political spectrum is undeniable. If you go rooting through the comments on popular right and left blogs, you'll find countless examples. The difference is how far up the chain those fringers go. Show me the liberal equivalent of Glenn Beck, of Rush Limbaugh, of Ann Coulter, of Michelle Malkin, of the Congressmen who have signed on to the Birther's bill, of Burton or Bachmann, of Falwell, and on and on, ad nauseam, in an endless parade of nutcases, all of whom have a national platform from which to spew their bile and all of whom are cited approvingly by the Republican Party.

Put up or shut up.

Again - if it’s worked that way the last few years… good on ‘ya. Keep it up. But don’t (PLEASE) think you’re immune/naturally resistant.

Why not? We survived eight years of Bush without going anywhere near what the Republican Party is currently doing. These guys have gone batshit crazy after just a few months of Obama, and with far less reason. Immune? No. Naturally resistant? The evidence suggests yes.

Oh, and hotrod, the day you see Democratic Congresscritters stooping to the level of impeaching a Republican president for damn near nothing, then we can talk about equivalent looniness.

In the meantime, you really ought to stop your incessant whining about an insignificant blogger who has no national audience, no national platform, and no presence on national media. It just makes you look foolish.

And if she could do it (and she was a fairly mainstream, if low profile, lefty blogger), then who else?

Who else indeed? Provide some examples, or we'll assume that wildly extrapolating from the rantings of a single blogger who gets a few hundred hits a month is the best you can do.

Me: So hotrod's entire argument boils down to: left-wing bloggers are as bad as right-wing Congressmen and the MSM.

hotrod: Uh, no.

Uh, *yes*. Steve declares that when it comes to fringe ideas catching on, democrats are not nearly as bad as republicans. You claim this is wrong. Your entire pile of evidence for your counter-claim is Huffington Post and an obscure lefty blogger who you confused with a more prominent one.

So, as I wrote, your entire argument boils down to: left-wing bloggers are as bad as right-wing Congressmen and the MSM.

And so, as I also wrote, you *FAIL*.

Shade Tail, he also mentioned Pete Stark, although he neglected to tell us exactly what Stark had done, and Seymour Hersh, although, again, he neglected to tell us exactly what Hersh had done nor why I should consider him a Democratic operative of any kind. At least he didn't bring up Michael Moore, the normal whipping boy that the right bring up, ad nauseam.

PaulB: True, he/she/it mentioned them, but, as you point out, without any details. So I focused on the more "concrete" (so to speak) parts.

try google:
forum/prisonplanet.com

there's a title called c-street group linked to sex/murder/drugs.....

***there's supposed to be a link on the file that has Clinton saying on tape that Doug Coe was her spiritual advisor, and info about the Vince Foster case...

note: I didn't hit the links or view videos because too much information.

Okay, here's the web addresses

forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=118412
"C Street group linked to secret society/cult/sex parties/murders"

http://www.theocracywatch.org/taking_over.htm
"the rise of the religious right in the republican party"

www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?option=com
"crusade watch, religious conversion watch"
***this talks about how they covered up Bush's arrest, expunged arrest record....his move to christianity

www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/weekly-watch/6-20-08/weeklywatch.html
***this talks about Bush stating he wants churches throughout the military - a military person had home graffiti with swastikas because he refused mixing religion with the military - this is an interesting piece.

You know, it seems like a lot of these loony conspiracy theories can be traced back to the same small cabal of super wealthy ultra-right wingers: Richard Mellon Scaife, Tom Monaghan, Howard Ahmanson and the rest. That's who's supplying the money for the NewsMax, WingNut Daily and of course the Moonies behind the Washington Times. That's who's got the money to promote the agenda, and what they all have in common is a fundamentalist religious worldview that is intolerant of gays and women and an abject fear of communism rooted in the 1950s. The good news is that most of these folks are ancient and when they pass on to their enternal punishment their children will be squabbling over their estates, leaving little money to fund these hate campaigns.