Put me in the 'give 'em enough rope to hang themselves' category.

As I said yesterday, SEIU members fighting back against the rightwing drones will only result in the media labeling them jackbooted thugs doing Obama's bidding. It will further damage the reputation of unions and set up one a false equivalence for the media to exploit.

Besides, Rahm doesn't want us pesky progressives interfering with the people who are really holding up health insurance reform anyway.

Until the White House shows some leadership and draws lines in the sand, it's simply not worth our effort. It's like playing tennis with a brick wall. No matter how good you are, the brick wall is going to win.

Media Matters has also pointed out (Yeah, those guys, never satisfied, are they?) that the media is failing to explain why the protests are occurring. If people don't understand that the protests are astroturf as opposed to genuine grassroots concerns, then the American people won't interpret them correctly and they won't discredit the right wing as Collins hopes they will.

I'm with Doubtful. There's something new out of the congressional gossip/spin mill almost every day, almost none of it good. I'm a really, really high-information voter, but I'm totally confused on the one hand and extremely cynical about what's going on on the other. For single-payer or Medicare for All, I would totally be downtown with a scary sign, yelling. For the committee-designed Camel Plans I've read about so far, topped off by side deals with Billy Tauzin and Big Pharma, not so much.

Uh oh ,
if we don't resist ...

And when my faith in my fellow man
All but falls apart,
I've but to feel your hand grasping mine
And I take heart; I take heart

To see the cool, clear
Eyes of a seeker of wisdom and truth;
Yet, with the slam-bang tang
Reminiscent of gin and vermouth.
Oh, I believe in you.
I believe in you.

So just lay back and do it for tommorrow ?

Or do we just become , slam- bang tang , Soylent ?

stand back... the bullshit meter is gonna blow...

"does this mean, dr, thompson, that your theory is correct, and the earth's core is nothing but molten bullshit, and yet, ironically, it is the very source itself of life on earth?"

"that's right, kathy, and you can only just trust me, that we, the experts, will deal safely with this crisis and save the earth -- and kathy, we'll take care of you, too."

How about this idea. Give the crazies a microphone for five or ten minutes, and let them make even bigger fools of themselves. If they do succeed in making any coherent points worthy of argument, that can happen when the podium microphone is turned back on.

The mobs have done their jobs and reformers have gotten nothing in return. It's awesome. Liberals get to look like chickenshits, our "centrist" allies in the Democratic parties get to use rightwing violence as a shield to keep the status quo (or give billions to various lobbies under the guise of reforms) and conservatives get to crow about a successful grassroots movement that scuttled desperately needed reform.

Now we might not have a good option here. But don't pretend that giving these fascists enough rope will do a GODDAMN thing for health care. The American people usually get swayed by who yells the loudest, and if not them, certainly our trained seal media.

And it certainly worked for them in 2000, so I hardly see where passive resistance has helped our cause (in the last 40 years).

The way I see it, if this reform package is as shitty a compromise as we all think it is, then we have nothing to lose with actively resisting the fascists. If it gets killed, well, we dodged a bad plan while standing up for something. If they succeed in killing it and/or making it worse without our input or numbers, we deserve what we get.

Frankly, I think the union guys (and people like myself) would be better served to show up to rallies with bats. You can't let yourself be pushed around by thugs. The fascists will whine no matter what happens, so fuck them. Let's make the case.

Bruce Wayne / Jay B

how did "let it happen" go for John Kerry?

I watch the videos of the anti-reform mobs and I see eyes that no longer see the real world, I see hatred causing veins to bulge in necks and foreheads and I see primal screams of rage.

I'm sorry to say it, but we're gonna see gunfire at one of these mobs scenes within days.

The counter campaign must simply ask and answer the following questions:

Do Americans want health care reform? -YES

Do Americans deserve care that won't cause them financial ruin? -YES

Does competition spur free market profits? -YES

Would your friends and relatives benefit if they had a Medicare plan such as yours? -answers will vary

Would you like coverage that allows you more doctor/patient time? -YES

So on and so on while pointing out how the proposed legislation in Congress is not "Obamacare". Then simply take all the ugly video footage and show it for what it's worth and merely ask the question:

What do these people want?

With their extremism bared for all to witness, who in mainstream America would follow them? I'm betting more will turn in the opposite direction and call these herded ruffians out on their bigotry and ignorance. -Kevo

You teach a dog to walk with you on a leash by not allowing the dog to pull you down the street. You simply stop walking until the dog stops pulling.

In these town hall meetings, the speaker should just stop talking until everyone else stops talking. Why? Continuing to talk just provides more opportunities to disrupt. If the speaker isn't speaking, there is nothing to push or pull against.

Bottom line: make it explicit policy to allow anyone to disrupt the meeting. The problem is that the people running the meeting "want to get something done", just like the dog owner wants to finish his walk around the block.

In this case, the only way to assert control is to display control by waiting for the disruptive folks to finish.

Until I read Collins' editorial, "get out there and drown 'em out" group seemed to be the best response.

We should create our own protests, and make them as well-organized, well-behaved, effective, and as impressive in strength as we can manage. Let's give parts of the media a really hard time. Let's go after Limbaugh/Hannity lies, point by point, using the biggest megaphones we can set up.

Let's avoid confrontations. We need to circumvent the bullies out there with their signs and shrieks. The real problem for us lies with the message carriers in the media. And the truth is,(sorry, wingnuts) our crowd tends to be smarter, more knowledgeable, better educated, and a lot politer and better spoken than the hybrid astroturf/crabgrass folks working for Freedom Works and the insurance companies. From the FCC and its oversight committees right down to the front door(s) of Fox and affiliates and their sponsors, we have plenty to do besides weep in frustration at the birthers and baggers.

I'm too old for the barricades, but so are those screaming red-faced bigots. Push back, younger brothers and sisters! I'll help staff the aid station. Bring your own bandages.

In these town hall meetings, the speaker should just stop talking until everyone else stops talking. Why? Continuing to talk just provides more opportunities to disrupt. If the speaker isn't speaking, there is nothing to push or pull against.

I think you're greatly underestimating these people's ability to scream for hours. There's nothing they'd like better. They're not pushing or pulling against the speaker -- they want him or her to not be able to speak.

Dogs give us the behavior we seek because they want the reward -- food, physical affection, toys. For the ignorant yahoos at these meetings, preventing the meeting from moving forward is the reward.

I side with Gail Collins. The mob crazies will disgrace themselves. You don't need to be a high-information observer to pick up on what's going on. Confrontation will only fan the flames and obscure the issue even further.

I know the animal instinct is to fight aggression with aggression, but it is only rarely effective. Absorbing the rabid stupidity of these noisy mobs calls upon a deeper level of courage and resourcefulness, but if it can be managed intelligently it is guaranteed to yield a better result in the long run. As soon as you try to oppose and suppress craziness you become tarred with the same brush and suffer the loss of sympathy you are already being accorded.

Getting the message out and "winning the policy debate" is no longer what's at stake here. Appearances are now everything. Skilfully handling the situation by staying cool, poking fun and picking holes should be the strategy.

Patience is the virtue par excellence.

I'm with Steve. We're a society that rewards the squeaky wheels, so nothing will be accomplished by sitting back. I think the anti-reform movement will implode at some point, just like the birthers. You can't have a movement made up of crazy people be successful for very long. People who want reform need to let their representatives know that they still want it, even if there are crazy violent people opposed to it.

Frankly, I think the union guys (and people like myself) would be better served to show up to rallies with bats. You can't let yourself be pushed around by thugs. The fascists will whine no matter what happens, so fuck them. Let's make the case. - Jay B

.. and send them to hospital so they find out what dealing with an insurance company is really like.

I have to confess you have a good point and strong counter-argument, Jay B.

Got to go with Collins. It's the members of Congress who will decide this, so why make them pissed off at us, too? If we just lay back (except for videotaping, always got to videotape), these ranting morons will do nothing but discredit the right. Or does someone think that lefties engaging in fistfights with wingnuts will make Congress hear our voices better. Call your Congressperson or write them a letter, be respectful, and you will do as much for us as those jerks are doing against themselves.

People are showing up to the town hall meetings because they are viscerally concerned about health care reform not because they are bigots, paid (except for the SEIU or ACORN thugs), organized by industry groups, or part of some astroturf campaign.

It's really, really important to you to pretend you have excellent independent judgment and are not on all fours getting banged silly by the corporate interests that never ever bothered to learn your name before sticking it to you, isn't it?

Ah, freedom. Don't tread on daleyrocks, baby. The people using him have already trampled him beyond recognition.

If you can't argue for your position on its merits, you're fucked.

Says the Palin fanboy.

Oops. daleyrocks/Mike K went bye bye.

Collins seems to discount the extent to which the media are choosing to portray these protests as the expression of an actual grassroots movement, and ignoring the astroturf aspect entirely. Thus, the storyline becomes "Congress is being told to keep their hands off, by a majority of the people, some of whom are really, really upset."

A number of "news" reports I've encountered have included soundbites of people repeating right-wing distortions, without any accompanying information about why what they say isn't true, and isn't in the bill. So the propaganda gets transmitted and magnified.

The mobs would embarass themselves, if they weren't designed from the start to be a prop used in the broader attempt to insert a meme into the media coverage. They are there to convince the newscasters that "the American people" are against health insurance reform. And if the newscasters act like it's true, they will make it so.

No, c of w, I'm just reading and enjoying.

1. People who disrupt meetings are not exercising free speech, they are denying FS to the speakers and to the listeners.

2. The "astroturf" controversy is not about whether the protesters have sincere beliefs (v. a straw man like, were they paid to pretend.) Rather, it is about the origination, funding, command structure etc. of the organizations involved in asking for people to protest etc.

3. Who is covering the protesters against their treatment by insurance companies? There is some, like at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/denied-claims-placed-at-h_n_253160.html , but the MSM doesn't seem to be doing much.

[By deleting Daleyrocks I'm just doing my part to help the right-wingnuts feel aggrieved. -Mod]

The answer, I suspect, is that to actually create some momentum for health care reform, there needs to be a concerted push launched by the American majority that's been waiting for reform for decades. It's not enough to simply let right-wing mobs destroy whatever remaining shreds of credibility the conservative movement had left. It's necessary for reform advocates to be vocal and public, letting the media and policymakers know there's a genuine hunger to pass, at long last, meaningful reform.

Concerted push? Yes. Vocal? No. Proponents can achieve a great deal by politely and quietly, with signs, attending the public sessions in large numbers.

"The people using him have already trampled him beyond recognition."

c of w - I thought he was trampled by the SEIU thugs Obama ordered out. Isn't that clear from the videotape?

Who do you claim is using him? Got any links?

"1. People who disrupt meetings are not exercising free speech, they are denying FS to the speakers and to the listeners."

Neil B. - Good to know. That's not the explanation offered by the left when they were shouting down conservative speakers during the Bush Administration! Amazing how things change.

astroturf as opposed to genuine grassroots concerns

In this debate, I think that distinction is useless: literally without any use. Proponents and opponents represent concerned citizens petitioning the government for redress of grievances, and both groups are organized from the top, middle, and bottom.

I think you're greatly underestimating these people's ability to scream for hours. There's nothing they'd like better. They're not pushing or pulling against the speaker -- they want him or her to not be able to speak.

Dogs give us the behavior we seek because they want the reward -- food, physical affection, toys. For the ignorant yahoos at these meetings, preventing the meeting from moving forward is the reward.

Civil disobedience is about not doing what the the other guy expects you to do. The mob is just trying to provoke a reaction. But the problem is that you can't separate who is trying to disrupt from those who are trying to have a meeting. Those trying to have a meeting should just wait. Maybe, the speaker could suggest that those who want a civil discussion should patiently wait until those who want to disrupt the meeting have finished. Or maybe ask them to sit down and wait. Then within a few minutes those standing will be the disruptive crowd and those sitting quietly will be the civil group.

But there is no point to trying to talk while everyone else is trying to control the meeting.

[By deleting Daleyrocks I'm just doing my part to help the right-wingnuts feel aggrieved. -Mod]

Chickenshit.

Once a bill is introduced, we should have large, very large, very very large rallies and demonstrations FOR health care reform. President Obama, VP Biden, Senators and Congressman should speak at them and prominent progresssive entertainers should appear. Our strength is the massive numbers who support health care reform. The counter demonstrators will appear small and extreme in comparison. Don't make any plans for the weekends in September.

Where's Woody Guthrie and his machine that kills fascists when you need him?

Initially talking about 2005 social security reform:

On March 16, USA Today reported that Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum "was among dozens of members of Congress who ran gantlets of demonstrators and shouted over hecklers at Social Security events last month. Many who showed up to protest were alerted by e-mails and bused in by anti-Bush organizations such as MoveOn.org and USAction, a liberal advocacy group. They came with prepared questions and instructions on how to confront lawmakers."

This was just good, boisterous politics: "Robust, wide-open debate." But when it happens to Democrats, it's something different: A threat to democracy, a sign of incipient fascism, and an opportunity to set up a (possibly illegal) White House "snitch line" where people are encouraged to report "fishy" statements to the authorities.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi calls the "Tea Party" protesters Nazis, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman --forgetting the events above -- claims that left-leaning groups never engaged in disruptive tactics against Social Security reform, and various other administration-supporting pundits are trying to spin the whole thing as a deadly move toward "mob rule" and - somewhat contradictorily -- as a phony "astroturf" movement.

Remember: When lefties do it, it's called "community organizing." When conservatives and libertarians do it, it's "astroturf."
But some people are noticing the truth. As Mickey Kaus notes, "If an 'astroturfing' campaign gets real people to show up at events stating their real views, isn't it ... community organizing?" Why yes, yes it is.

daleyrocks, have you ever experienced first hand the financially devastating results of medical intervention? Were you insured or uninsured? If insured, did you find your coverage adequate? Do you actually believe that a clause in the health care legislation put in by a Republican from Georgia is establishing "death panels" and will lead to euthanasia? Come on now, I'd like to learn more from your vantage point. -Kevo

"Frankly, I think the union guys (and people like myself) would be better served to show up to rallies with bats. You can't let yourself be pushed around by thugs. The fascists will whine no matter what happens, so fuck them. Let's make the case." - Jay

Jay, while this sounds tempting, I'm afraid it would have the opposite effect of making them martyrs and confirming their claims that we on the Left are the jackbooted thugs. We must not sink to their level.

If I had my way, on lefty blogs we would NOT advocate violence. That just gives the wingers ammunition. Sure, they'll make shit up anyway, but let's not give them ammunition, ok?

I don't think, though, that we should just sit back and let the wingers control the "debate". We know their talking points. Make signs rebutting all the ones out there now, and when they start shouting, have people stand up with signs telling what a health plan would do, to the extent that we know this now. Also, point out that Living Will does NOT equal euthanasia, and that no one would be required to make a Living Will. If the MSM doesn't show the signs, inundate them with calls, boycott their sponsors, etc.

So rather than trying to outshout these people, offer a visual rebuttal which can be read while tuning out people's ill-informed rants.

Also daleyrocks, do you believe in competition in the market place? Do you split hairs between a monopoly and an industry that is "highly concentrated"? Do you believe in civil discourse, or do you believe two wrongs make a right? -Kevo

Nice false equivalency, daleyrocks - they came with prepared questions and instruction on how to confront lawmakers (in ways to get answers.) The Beckbots are there specifically to disrupt and prevent the conversation from happening, and to make sure that people with legitimate questions don't get answers.

Sing along with Grover, now..."One of these things is not like the other..."

Update: I looked at the video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w) Mike K provided in the SEIU thread. I have screen magnification through NVIDIA and noticed, the tee shirt of the guy beating up the other one did not say "SEIU." It was black too, but you can see it is a different logo. He may have been a member anyway, but the other SEIU were wearing shirts clearly marked "SEIU." I did hear something about "the two of you guys" but the scene isn't very clear IMHO even with zoom. Anyone have more scoop?

What both sides do is in fact organizing-- the big difference is that gigantic billion dollar corporations aren't behind MoveOn or other groups. The non-profit world of organizing on the lefty side is supported by like-minded donors, brought together by wanting more rights for people, certain kind of political change, not corporate interests who are worried about losing money if the system changes. The righty side is sponsored by big Pharma, insurance companies and the like. There is a HUGE difference, really. Not to mention that the crazy lies coming out of these groups are embarassing-- they seem to know that their followers aren't well informed and are banking on that helping them stay crazy, crazy rich.

Until the White House shows some leadership and draws lines in the sand, it's simply not worth our effort. ... I'm totally confused on the one hand and extremely cynical about what's going on on the other. For single-payer or Medicare for All, I would totally be downtown with a scary sign, yelling. For the committee-designed Camel Plans I've read about so far, topped off by side deals with Billy Tauzin and Big Pharma, not so much.

Amen.

Daleyrocks: "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi calls the "Tea Party" protesters Nazis" - no, she complains about them calling Obama and the Democrats, Nazis. That's an IQ test. Also, the anti-SS "reform" protesters at least had a clue what their issue was about. BTW I presume you're named for [Mayor Richard} Daley of Chicago, who loved to beat up on protesters - so what are you insinuating?

tomj - such passivity just gives the thugs what they want. People instinctively see weakness when someone accepts another's aggression. Maybe Ghandi and Mandela could do it, but they were organizing long term against a social structure (not mobs) and there was a real or implicit threat of force behind their so-called "passivity."

"they came with prepared questions and instruction on how to confront lawmakers (in ways to get answers.)"

Realist - Holy smokes! Prepared by themselves or others? Evidence please.

"the big difference is that gigantic billion dollar corporations aren't behind MoveOn or other groups."

zoe - Well, the left has billionaires like Soros, Peter Lewis, the Sandlers, John Kerry's wife funding their efforts, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. If you could show some evidence that corporations are pating people to show up at these meetings or organizing the campaigns that would be interesting. Have you got any evidence? Are they busineg them in like ACORN and the SEIU or are you just pulling this out of your ass?

Neil B. - Focusing on my screen name is indeed critical to this debate. You folks are way too highly nuanced for me I can tell.

We should let them have their head and they'll make all the mistakes. JUST KEEP THE CAMERAS ROLLING! Remember what Jim Webb did to George Allen in Virginia with a camera!

Robert - Exactly. Smears-R-Us. The Chicago and Democrat Way. When you can't win on the merits, tell the opposition to shut up or smear them. You guys are really comedy gold.

Daleyrocks, the disrupters are "smearing" themselves by what they do, no one needs to make anything up. As for evidence of astroturfing: http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141833/right-wing_turncoat_explains_why_conservatives_are_rampaging_town_halls/
explains how groups such as Dick Armey's FreedomWorks. That guy also lobbies for Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Prime Minister of the UAE, on energy related issues - ironic, isn't it?

BTW we did win on the merits, in 2008 - your crowd can't accept that.

So I agree, the anti-SS-"reform" critics shouldn't have shouted down Santorum etc. either - now can we agree, neither they nor the current agitators should do things that way?

I'm just wondering if senators and representatives held town halls in the 1960s, and what they would do if Abbie Hoffman or Huey Newton showed up with an overwhelming mass of like-minded people.

Whatever measures were appropriate then would be appropriate now, since the protestors have the same aims (shut down the assembly) and are using the same tactics.

I agree, Steve. But we need to have a nonviolent, civil (if loud) response.

My suggestions to people confronting the hooligans:
* Don't clench fists or get physical.
* Shame them and highlight their rudeness and demagoguery.
* Stress that free speech does not include the right to censor with mob shouting and interruption.
* Use very loud chants like:
** "Wait your turn! Wait your turn!"
** "Let him/her speak! Let him/her speak!"
** "You lost the election"

Something like that. Let's push back forcefully, with humor (and derision) and in ways that do no damage to our public image.

Zoe Kentuck: The non-profit world of organizing on the lefty side is supported by like-minded donors, brought together by wanting more rights for people, certain kind of political change, not corporate interests who are worried about losing money if the system changes.

That and unions, and other groups who expect to profit handsomely by the proposed changes.

The righty side is sponsored by big Pharma, insurance companies and the like.

a. And by lots of individuals who believe that provisions in the bills will be very costly to them.

b. Big Pharma struck a deal with the administration and Congress and supports the bills now in Congress. Upon learning that, some liberal members of Congress have been organizing resistance that they did not organize before.

c. the left does have its "limozine liberals" -- wealthy, very wealthy donors, like George Soros and Hollywood moguls.

Realist: they came with prepared questions and instruction on how to confront lawmakers (in ways to get answers.)

That's not a bad approach. I have watched some of the videos, and some of the protesters harm their cause with impolite badgering and interrupting and shouting down. I mean, they are really gross. Those things hurt their cause, at least I think they do. But showing up with prepared questions is not bad. Prepared questions are not necessarily a sign of "astroturfing" -- lots of questions are circulated via emails from individuals on their own initiative.

Richard Nixon, when confronted with massive demonstrations against the war invoked the "Silent Majority" as his base.

Perhaps it's time for the "Silent Majority" to reemerge.

I'm in no mood to be as polite as Mr. Benen, soooo...Gail Collins should just STFU. With friends like that, who needs enemies? I mean, christ, she just reinforces every cliche about insulated, detached, elitist, arrogant 'liberal.' In case she didn't notice, the teabaggers’ oh-so-'distasteful' tactics are WORKING, and will continue to work EVEN IF THEY BACKFIRE at some point (which is not a given). Plus, she presents a false dichotomy - either sit on your flabby, entitled white ass and do nothing, or "be like them." What? How about principled, informed, passionate and vocal pushback against guttersnipe emotional retards who will, if unopposed, shut down dialogue. I'm sorry, but Gail Collins is a fucking idiot. I just came back from a Lloyd Doggett rally at a community health center here in Austin, and our superior turnout, mature demeanor, and bottomless lung power relegated the marginal to where they belong - the margins. Guess what happened? After a few weak attempts at disruption they crawled away like the wet diaper babies they are, and I had the pleasure of attending one of the liveliest, most informative open debates on health care I've ever witnessed. Fuck you, Gail Collins. For everyone else - join Organizing For America's rapid response team, and make sure that yours and everyone else's voices are heard.

What a bore
Are you even able to read mr drock

I'm just wondering if senators and representatives held town halls in the 1960s, and what they would do if Abbie Hoffman or Huey Newton showed up with an overwhelming mass of like-minded people.

What happened is a lot of people voted for Nixon. Twice.

Where is the coalition of millions of American voters who last year got together and elected Barack Obama president? The very voters who voted for and, in some cases, worked for CHANGE?

Why aren't WE out there? Why aren't WE being heard from? If the congressmen and senators didn't get the message that 53% of American voters wanted CHANGE last November, well, maybe we need to somehow get the message across to them, yet again.

How, I don't know. Peaceful marches, with placards? Sending handwritten letters or faxes to their Washington offices? We've already had one election that should have cued in these people that Americans want CHANGE from the status quo that the Republicans have held on to for the past eight years.

All I know is that millions of Americans got together, peacefully, and indicated on November 3rd that we wanted new policies, a new direction, and new, smart leaders. When will these new leaders actually lead us in the direction we want to be led?

Don't take away my Medicare for some sorta government socialized medicine!
We need private insurance companies for the competition!
We can't have a public option because the private insurance companies cannot compete!
Anybody can walk into a hospital and get treated FOR FREE right now!
Canadian health care is killing people!
I'm worried about those death panels right now!

Nobody can tell me what to think cause I've got my talking points, by God, and I can yell louder than anybody else in the room!

How about this - forget townhalls - organize mega-ralles, quiet, thousands of people, kind of like the ones Hispanic Americans organized a couple of years back to fight against racist smears on them...

rrk1@2.51p and Ohioan@3.14p both have the right ideas. Good going, guys.

What Conrads Ghost said! And BTW I am not deterred by Daleyrocks' putdowns of asking about people's handles (so sensitive!), so if you're willing CG, who is "Conrad"?

BTW, I and most of us, would have gone to a Santorum forum, lined up behind the mike, and given polite, articulate and well-reasoned rebuttals to SocSec "reform" just like we did in comments a few years ago. (And I noticed, similar talking points appeared in letters to Editors here and there!)

There are countermoves to the teabag crazies that are neither passive nor obnoxious. If the SEIU brought clowns on unicycles that handed out balloons and copies of the various legislation in question it would A) elevate the debate and B) highlight that the OTHER clowns were obnoxious.

David Neiwert writes about effective counterprotests against white power and neo-Nazi groups and the last thing you want to do is engage them on their terms. A discussion about how euthanasia is not in the Democratic bills is just what these crazies want.

Cute notions joejoejoe, but unfortunately not having a discussion about how euthanasia is not in the bills, will make it more credible to think it is. (And don't confuse not engaging on "their terms" such as brawling - but you do have to shout back, sorry - with engaging on "our" terms such as - having discussions!)

One of the most pathetic sentiments around, and why wormy Bob Shrum lost so many elections for Democrats, was "don't dignify charges by responding to them." No, charges are dignified by *not* being challenged. That is a fundamental rule of human nature - like it or not. Kerry lost in part from not challenging the Swift Boaters early and hard.

This op-ed is just concern trolling at its best (or worst). Yeah sure, the best way to stop thugs is to be reasonable. Fuck that noise.

This is the singing debut of one of my children by my three wives.

Although I have encouraged her to cut back on the Jack Daniels, cigarettes and tanning bed I am very proud of her patriotism and outstanding critical thinking skills.

Um, what's lacking in this debate so far (here and out in the real world) is a request for (and/or proof of) a little creative leadership by our elected officials. We're in the 21st century; why not try a little 21st-century technology to help take control of the town halls?

I have to assume (having never been to one) that these town halls typically begin with some opening remarks by the candidate. (If they don't, who's the genius allowing that opportunity to slip by?) Why not include a slide presentation with the remarks? All the representative needs is a laptop, a screen (and possibly a computer-savvy assistant and/or good graphics/copy editors), and a Keynote or PowerPoint program (hell, even Word, if it comes to that).

They just need to use big letters on each page, so the message can be easily read by the 50+ age group. (The older the voter is, the more likely s/he is to oppose healthcare reform. Plus, as a group, the older baby boomers and their elders are more likely to show up and less likely to shut up.) Tell them to keep some slides simple, retrace a little history to provide some background to the debate (and address some myths visually, e.g., "THE TRUTH: Medicare is a government-run program. Always has been."), and go into more detail on others (like explaining the end-of-life consultation coverage). The visual presentation will both support the opening remarks and imprint the words on the audience's eyes. That's a good thing.

Once the opening remarks are over, the rep should keep the screen up and the presentation on. When people ask questions, s/he can pull up the slides you went over or new slides that have been set up in anticipation of certain questions. When people start yelling or chanting, s/he can pull up a slide that addresses the topic that prompted this round of interruptions. Let the screen do the talking, while supporters of healthcare reform chant back, "Read the screen" (or whatever the hell they want; it's kind of a free country). Hell, s/he can add a screen that says, "Let me know when you're done yelling, please, so your friends and neighbors and I can continue discussing healthcare reform," and show it every time an interruption continues for 60 seconds or more.

The trick is to control the eyeballs with the presentation. People like shiny distractions; make the slides pretty, and distract them with the facts.

Oh, and would it hurt to have pamphlets made up that lists the facts (as we know them so far) about what healthcare reform will and won't do? I don't know what the Congressional rules on that sort of thing might be, but I'm pretty sure we the people are free to print up our own.

Will this shut 'em up? (Who am I, Don Rumsfeld?) Probably not — certainly not all of them, and probably not most of them. But if it serves to educate a few of them each time ....

It's the 21st century. If we can't elevate the debate, the least our elected officials can do is try to expand the options for doing so.

Just a thought ....

"Why not, as Collins suggests, just leave them to humiliate themselves?"

Because it reminds me of the advice that Mario Cuomo gave to then Democratic presidential candidate Dukakis in 1988 when he was well ahead in the polls and the RNC, Lee Atwater, and Floyd Brown started the slime campaign against him.

Well, yeah, a laptop, a screen, and a projector of some sort. (Sorry, the A/V club shunned me in high school.) I assume these people at least know some people who know some people who can help out with this ....

myke - that shit was brilliant!!! I especially loved bringing the dead grandma into it.

That third wife was a keeper.

Why not just leave them to humiliate themselves?

No, that is not what we should do. Tolerance is a virtue, but tolerance coupled with passivity is a vice. We must give up passivity and challenge them aggressively. As Franklin Roosevelt said, “If American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land.”

Do we not understand the power and seductiveness of the evil that is currently afoot in our nation? Do we not see who is behind the mobilization and unleashing of these dark forces? Are we so unaware of the dangers of impotent complacency?

When asked, what is a fascist? Vice President Henry Wallace wrote, “The really dangerous American fascist…is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way...His method is to poison the channels of public information. With the fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power…They demand free enterprise but are spokesmen for monopoly and vested interests. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjugation.”

The silent tend to go unheard? How many anti-Nazis in Nazi Germany later said, “If only, instead of being passive, we had resisted, we could have stopped Hitler.”

You moonbats are so pitiful. You think that trying to attack my personal life, which you know nothing about, is somehow going to help your silly arguments. Your dear leader, in a later post, says you can't understand why people are upset at the proposed "reform." It is so sad that I believe that is true. You have no idea why people would prefer freedom to tyranny.

The lefty blogs are like kicked over anthills this week. And anthills are what your philosophy resembles. The divide between us in political philosophy is truly very deep.

I really feel sorry for most of you and you will never understand why.

I'm not advocating violence, but if it comes to that you better be willing to step up to these nut-bags or the game is over. Sure, give them enough rope to hang themselves...that's fine, but someone still has to kick the chair out from under them...(They will not do it themselves no matter how much you wish it. I for one am volunteering for the job)

There are millions of pansy ass Americans who will simply follow the side that seems the strongest no matter how much they disagree with their ideology. That is just a simple fact in America today that cannot be ignored.

You have no idea why people would prefer freedom to tyranny.

No, you do not.

It is true that I am on record as supporting tyranny through my previous multiple endorsements of single payer.

If you can't understand why I have changed my mind, I cannot explain it to you.

But it's not what you think. Really.

Mike K, the "personal life" bit is from one parody troll and not something the rest of us are responsible for - where is "personal" responsibility? The rest of us mostly gave clear reasoned rebuttals. I sure did. I even looked at that clip, and I admitted that neither side should interfere in meetings like Santorum's. I asked for common agreement from you against that, and heard nothing. So now you gripe about something tangential, and falsely pretend to not have been reasoned with.

And about freedom, tyranny - that's a matter of choice and not how your philosophy frames it. We want a better set of choices than what we get from the insurance companies. You let yourself get stirred up my manipulators like Mark Levin. Do you think such "philosophers" aren't also trying to promote the interests of the corporations?

Mike K and his parody, Myke K, online and posting at the same time?? Gawds, I think my brain might implode from the matter/anti-matter reaction.

:)

Hey, Mike "special" K...who is your dear leader? Jesus? Rush? Who? You see, we are not being led by anyone...we are doing the leading...

Myke, I don't think anyone thinks that attacking your personal life (which it sounds like you've conducted as incompetently as you conducted your professional and political life) is for the purpose of bolstering arguments. There are plenty of facts and data in these threads, none of which you've been able to respond to this past week.

None. You're 0 for 211. You just cry every day about how mean we're being to you by making you look at measurable data.

No, mocking you is just for fun. When was the last time you had any, you surly old sleaze?

Hey, Mike "special" K...who is your dear leader? Jesus? Rush?

I am not a religious man. But the religious right is not leading my party.

I find Rush pretty tacky. But he has no real influence. Neither does this Glenn Beck you're all so hysterical about.

The protesters have no leader. They are independent thinkers. Imagine that.

They are not who I'd choose to spend time with socially but I will defend them to the death. Even though they cannot articulate their ideas or plan I understand what they really mean.

The protesters have no leader. They are independent thinkers. Imagine that.

ROFLMAO!!! Those "protesters" are following Rush's instructions!!! Do you think those retards came up with the NAZI shit on their own?

Please, Mike "special" K, produce one original thought form just ONE "protester" you've seen. I double dog dear you...

You wouldn't understand it, elmo. You're too emotional.

I'm not going to cast the protesters' intellectual pearls before swine.

"Even though they cannot articulate their ideas or plan I understand what they really mean" Mike K

Mike - no matter what the super secret code is - it will still come up as "drink more olvatine"

Jackass

I knew it! Mike is a damn pansy! Loser conservatives can never back up their mouths...

Mike K, I too understand what they really mean! And when they get all emotional and cry that their America has been taken away and America is not what they know it is at this time, my thoughts are of scores of my Southern relatives who speak whites-only code, and have been doing so since Jim Crow. Is that how you understand these protestors? -Kevo

Another "whistling through the graveyard" article. All this Left wing hysteria over the protesters, and typical Liberal hubris. They just CANNOT grasp that the majority of voters do NOT want Obamacare. Voters do want health care reform, but the current bills are utter dogs and the polls are crystal clear that voters reject them.

Obama/Pelosi's credibility is an issue too. After the Stimulus, Cap & Trade, and all the bald-faced lies about Obamacare, increasing numbers of voters will not support ANY package crafted by this radical Left congress.

Two historical points. John Kerry and Barack Obama were both subjected to outrageously false, libelous smears during their campaigns for President, including books by John Corsi, published by Regnery, that gave those viral e-mail slanders the veneer of respectability. Kerry chose to ignore the smears on the grounds that acknowledging them would give them undeserved legitimacy, and also assuming, of course, that a minimally competent media would immediately expose them as false. Obama established his "fight the smears" website and aggressively countered them. Now, which candidate won?

There seem to be lots of alter egos here today so I will just make one comment.

You let yourself get stirred up my manipulators like Mark Levin. Do you think such "philosophers" aren't also trying to promote the interests of the corporations?

Posted by: Neil B

Neil, your reasonable comment was pretty rare for this blog the past couple of years. There has been a pattern of personal obscenity directed at me as I am one of the very few posters still left from the days of Kevin Drum when there seemed to be an atmosphere of debate and not hatred. I didn't accuse everyone of this sort of thing, just most.

I think I have heard Mark Levin twice on trips t the east coast. I listen to Limbaugh maybe once a month. I prefer Dennis Prager.

I do support health care reform but do not support this sort of blind power play where no one really knows what is being proposed. The Congress people hadn't even read the bill and the previous history does not instill confidence. Remember transparency ? And posting bills online for five days ?

Sorry but the trust is gone except from devoted followers who would probably accept anything. If I wrongly included you, I apologize.

I do support health care reform but do not support this sort of blind power play where no one really knows what is being proposed.

If "no one" knows what is being proposed, how come you and the teabags at the Town Halls Gone Wild are so specific? Granny gets euthanized...rationing care...government between doctors and patients...etc.

How and the hell can you be so goddamn informed if there is nothing on the table to read?

Today I support healthcare reform but object to all the creepy secrecy. Don't you think Obama is creepy?

Sometimes I don't support healthcare reform.

Sometimes I support "reform" with a "market-based system."

Sometimes I support single-payer. But come to think of it that was before a Democrat got elected. I never really believed that would happen! I had McCain whomping Obama two weeks before the election. Well, anyone could have made that mistake.

Looking for a common thread? If a Democrat proposed it and Democrats are for it I'm against it no matter what it is.

If a lot of people have to die that's just the way it is. You have to make some sacrifices.

JohnR, Mike K: All right, you want reasonable debate so please put down some reform ideas you can live with. ("Pearls"? Somewhere perhaps, but most of the disrupters are filled with distortions and not proposals.) And note, health insurance companies could well be opposed to them as well.

ActUp Fight back!

I'm with biggerbox, far, far upthread. Although I don't have a personal stake in it beyond the discomfort that comes with having a crazy neighbour, I'd just like to know if there's any limit to what you can sell an American if you wrap it in the flag. The nutjobs think they're manning North Bridge at Concord, defending the country from the slow advance of an alien invader. Under other circumstances it'd be comical - it's like shoving a piece of clothing under a bloodhound's nose. "Here, Nutjob - see? it's the FLAG OF YOUR COUNTRY!!! Now, go out and mess up that town hall meeting!!"

Rush and the singalong gang at Republican headquarters have managed once again to trick the undereducated that what they are doing is their patriotic duty. For the record, there isn't another country on the planet where this would work.

Most of the Republicans are not all that smart themselves, so it must be a tremendous kick for them to manipulate the mouthbreathers.

Most of the comments posted here as me are not me and should be deleted by the moderators as you know the e-mail addresses and ISP info. I don't mind the parody misspelling my name but the others are just crap. Neil, you can see my reform ideas on my blog, here: http://abriefhistory.org/?p=400.

I have a series of posts and another today about problems in France that may be caused by a shift in funding that resembles the "government option." I have e-mailed the writer of a piece in today's WSJ that I link to about whether the funding mechanism has changed in France since most of my information which is about seven years old.

Yeah, let's just all sit back and let the brown shirts make fools of themselves....

God, some of you people are less than useless.

I can't understand why no one ever talks to me.

Was it something I said?

Let 'em riot.
Let 'em get into the face of our elected representatives.
Let said reps see the other side of the face of those GOP colleagues of theirs.
Let said reps see affable John Boehner encourage his droogs to fleck their faces with spittle.
(I was particularly pleased to see John Dingell get a shower of it the other day. How do you like your golfing buddies now, John?)
Let the Dems see what bi-partisanship gets them--and then let them get out the scalping knives.

Neil, you might be interested in this video:

http://www.11alive.com/video?maven_playerId=immersiveplayer3&maven_referralObject=1208541313

Leftist contempt for anyone who thinks differently from them, in all its lurid display. And so macho, too. You all have. No. Idea. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

But we will pull you out of the way of the disastrous Obamacare train, along with ourselves, toward reform which is genuinely better than what we have now, and maybe some day some of you may thank us.

Sophie- I think the contempt being expressed here is for the stupidity and credulity of the Teabaggers, who I assure you are not interested in the least in "better" reform. And isn't the bellowing and shouting at the Town Halls pretty macho, too?

The problem with a hands-off approach is that the media cannot be relied on to accurately represent the motivations and actions of the Teabaggers. They will continue to portray it as a genuine, grass-roots movement reflecting genuine anger, and congratulate themselves on a "balanced" treatment of the news.

Sophie, it wasn't all contempt, and much confusion was apparently caused by someone spoofing "Mike K" in addition to the parody troll "Myke K". But you read threads at RedState, Free Republic, and I guarantee you'll see worse than any here. As for other reform ideas: OK, fine to propose them. So can we then agree the status quo isn't good enough, and *something* has to be done?

BTW Mike K, thanks for the links and too bad about the confusion. Maybe there can be an automatic bot that flags identical handles with different URLs, who knows. But we can all agree, "Al" is terrific; whoever or even whatever he "really is" ;-)

The posts at 8:33 p.m. and 12:21 a.m. are not mine.

Leftist contempt for anyone who thinks differently from them, in all its lurid display. And so macho, too. You all have. No. Idea. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

ROFLMAO.... Oh. The. Irony.

But we will pull you out of the way of the disastrous Obamacare train, along with ourselves, toward reform which is genuinely better than what we have now, and maybe some day some of you may thank us.

Do tell us what that "genuinely better" reform is, won't you, dear? Congressional Republicans don't seem to be able to come up with anything other than doing nothing or lowering taxes again.

Oh, and Sophie, dear? We're not anti-disagreement, we're anti-stupid.

mike k: You have no idea why people would prefer freedom to tyranny.

"Republicans, I think you are confusing tyranny with losing."

- Jon Stewart

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