It seems that Professor Ferguson, the guy wingnuts like to cite to prove they're not all morons, is just as much a racist as they are.

IF GM's Volt, a rechargeable electric car, can really get 230 miles per gallon, it's a real game-changer.

Don't forget to factor the electricity the car uses into your energy consumption estimates.

qwerty: According to the article, there's a small engine that generates the power, thus the 230 mpg. While I do think this number is greatly inflated, I'm just amazed that it's seeing the light of day at all. I'd written it off as vaporware already a couple of years ago.

GM is counting on people being as stupid as the clutzbrains who are protesting health care benefits that would be advantageous to them.

Lautner of GM is walking it back, and Thetruthaboutcars has his balls in a vice in the comments section - where those who know cars from hype hang out.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-155-the-230-mpg-alleged-game-changer/#more-325776

"In fact, even Lauckner seems to admit that the whole 230 MPG hype campaign is a smokescreen. A comment further into the livechat seems to reveal that actual EPA testing may invalidate GM’s day-one Volt slogan of 40 miles without a drop of gasoline. Surprised?

Statik: The EPA rated the Volt at 25 kilowatt hours/100 miles electrical efficiency in city cycle. Does that not now mean with the Volt (which uses approximately 8 kWh of power) the AER in the city is officially 32 miles?

Jon Lauckner: We are still confident that we will deliver 40 miles of autonomous electric range (AER) on both the official EPA city and highway tests, so no change there. The EPA draft methodology reduces the laboratory result take into account a number of factors such as the use of air-conditioning, more passengers in the vehicle, cargo, etc. So, that’s the difference between the “up to 40 miles” that we stated for some time (based on EPA city and highway) and the methodology used by EPA. And, nothing is final until we run an official test which won’t happen for several months.

And with that, Lauckner sweeps aside the curtain of illusion. Testing is not official, nor does it take passengers or air conditioning into account. And when official testing takes place the Volt’s “up to 40 miles” raison d’être could fall."

SteinL said:
And when official testing takes place the Volt’s “up to 40 miles” raison d’être could fall."

And the Commodore 64 computer only had 64K of RAM.

Hey, it's a start.

"-- because I don't want people thinking I just have a bunch of plants in here."

So what's the first thing Andrea Mitchell said to Ron Allen after the Town Hall? Many people are saying that the participants were hand selected (or words to that effect). What can you tell us about the selection process, Ron?

Sometimes I wonder what the pundits are doing when they're supposed to be watching the subject of their telecasts! Did she even bother to WATCH Obama this afternoon?? Apparently NOT!

Gen. Stanley McChrystal wants 45,000 additional U.S. troops in Afghanistan and to see the number of U.S. government civilian workers doubled.

The POTUS is a Dem, so it's ok to kill brown people again! Yippee!

"And the Commodore 64 computer only had 64K of RAM.

Hey, it's a start."

Here, here.

Niall Ferguson seems to be living proof that you can be wrong about everything and still get by in America if you have an Oxbridge pedigree and an English accent. I mean, is there anything he hasn't been wrong about, whether it relates to historical or contemporary events?

Deep question

I wonder if the health care debate will ever touch on the executive salaries of insurance company CEOs?

Or There, there!

Hear, hear!

In reality, the GM Volt gets worse MPG than a few gasoline powered vehicles on the road, but they love trying to change the accounting, in order to present new math.

The Volt is not an electric car. It is a plug in hybrid car.

* IF GM's Volt, a rechargeable electric car, can really get 230 miles per gallon, it's a real game-changer. -- Steve Benen

Yeah, and if my grandma could really grow wheels, the wheelchair manufacturers would be out of business. That's why they want to euthanize her; preemptively, if you will.

And, even assuming that were true, then there's also the question of how far it can go between plug-ins and how long a recharge takes. 'cause, if I can only go 200 miles per charge and then have to stay the next 12 hrs snugged up to a charging post, that's 16hrs to cover 200 miles. I ain't buying such a car.

Paul Krugman has been regularly taking Ferguson apart for his economic "anaylses". Looks like he's branched out into politics, and his trying his brand of stupid out on a new audience.

Re: 230 MPG --- totally fabricated numbers from GM, but since we own the company, let's not raise too much ruckas or we'll never get out of that stock! Remember that 14 out of the 20 railroad cars of coal fed into a 1000MW power plant every day go up the stack as waste heat - only 30% of the input energy ends up entering the grid. Another 18% is lost in transmission to your new electric car. Add up the losses and electric cars make very little sense. GM should be producing electric TRAINS, heavy and light rail, to move America's freight and people far more efficiently than this illusion of 'happy motoring' ever will.

Sad. We're past failsafe and all we can do is continue dreaming of suburbia and electric mini vans for new age soccer moms...

* IF GM's Volt, a rechargeable electric car, can really get 230 miles per gallon, it's a real game-changer.

First, its a plug-in series hybrid, not an "electric car". Second, it really can't. Even GM doesn't claim that it actually goes 230 miles per gallon of gasoline; it actually gets about 50 miles per gallon of gasoline, pretty much the same as the Prius. The 230mpg is what they expect the EPA to rate it at, for city driving, using a equivalency formula to be used for vehicles that can run pure electric. Which, if its true, should encourage more automakers to make electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids (the Volt is really the latter, though its marketed as the former) that can run pure-electric for long enough to take advantage of the EPA rating formula for at least ther city rating, the way the Volt will, for promotional reasons. (Note that Nissan has already announced that their all-electric Leaf, debuting in late 2010, is expected to get a rating of 367 mpg using the same formula, and its expected to be something like $15,000 less expensive than the Volt, too, so even if they get the rating they expect, it might end up being useful as a promotional tool for only a very short time before the Volt is left in the dust.)

And, even assuming that were true, then there's also the question of how far it can go between plug-ins and how long a recharge takes.

Well, there would be, except the Volt isn't an electric car, its a plug-in hybrid with a big battery, so once you run out of charge and gas, you pull into a gas station and keep going.

For anyone interested, I wrote a total smackdown of a conservative blogger who insisted that we need to worry about technocratic "Sandmen" of Logan's Run denying healthcare to relatives of those on Obama's "enemies list," based largely on the usage of the word "orders" in the legislation, rather than "directives," even though the legislation actually uses BOTH terms.

Yes, this was an easy one, but that makes it all the more fun. And I assure you, this whackjob was entirely serious. For those who pay attention to such people, it's Professor Donald Douglas, who apparently is paid to teach political science to actual humans. That, perhaps, is the most chilling part of all.

Conservatives Fear the Sandmen

because I don't want people thinking I just have a bunch of plants in here."

See, he's even anti-gardening. Is their no evil this man doesn't embody?

"IF GM's Volt, a rechargeable electric car, can really get 230 miles per gallon, it's a real game-changer."

I wrote a long time ago that this would be a game-changer. Contrary to most of today's media coverage, the GM Volt is NOT a hybrid. It is an electric vehicle with an on-board range-extending powerplant that NEVER drives the drivetrain but can merely drive a generator that can charge the batteries. You can also plug it in to recharge the batteries at a cost of about 40 cents a day.

Unlike other electric vehicles, which are fine for local use but are useless if you want to visit relatives in another state, the Volt can operate on batteries alone for the first 40 miles, after that the powerplant starts charging the batteries and you can drive from coast to coast.

The 40 mile threshold was derived from a study by the cell phone companies that found from generic mapping that on the majority of days, the majority of the time, the majority of Americans drive less than 20 miles from home. Therefore, if everyone drove a Volt, the majority of days, the majority of the time, the majority of Americans would use NO GASOLINE.

Anyone else think the gun toting man at the Obama healthcare townhall was stupidly brave - most likely there were two sharpshooters with guns pointed at his head ready in case he made a move that was suspicious.

We need to roll back big capitalism on many fronts. We need to return to representative Democracy. We need to get the money out of politics. We need to eliminate the idea that corporations have free speech rights, rights with only pertain to individuals. We need to stop funding business lobbying groups like Chambers of Commerce and the US military.

About the Volt.

Some kids at MIT studied a slight change in the way LIon batteries (the same in your laptop) were manufactured, while reducing capacity slightly, can be fully recharged in 8 seconds.

"Obama is not Bush..."-- well said.

Obama is out there, and we hear from him. He has my respect. Bush did not.

Reminds me of an essay about Bush by Bob Herbert entitled "Exit Strategy," from early January '09:

"Does anyone know where George W. Bush is...the last image most of us remember is of the president ducking a pair of size tens that were hurled at him in Baghdad....
"this is the man who gave us the war in Iraq and Guantanamo and torture and rendition; who turned the Clinton economy and the budget surplus into fool's gold; who dithered while New Orleans drowned; who trampled our civil liberties at home and ruined our reputation abroad;
who let Dick Cheney run hog wild and thought Brownie was doing a heckava job..."
" The president (Bush) would give the wealthy and the powerful virtually everything they wanted. He would throw sand into the regulatory apparatus and help foster the most extreme income disparities since the years leading up to the Great Depression. Once again he was lighting a fire. This time the flames would engulf the economy and, as with Iraq, bring catastrophe..."

President Obama inherited this mess.

It is absurd how Obama is regarded as ruining the economy by these wierdo birthers, seemingly violent disgrunted types, and people not understanding that Medicare is a government run program.

Can you stand how things have turned so absurdly and scarily wierd now!

With regards to the Volt, the game hasn't changed at all, and the game is Marketing-Horseshit.

The Volt is an impressive car, but the measurement units are completely retarded. Check out the Good Math/Bad Math blog and get your learn on:

http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/08/the_chevy_volt_gets_230_mpg_on.php

the GM Volt is NOT a hybrid. It is an electric vehicle with an on-board range-extending powerplant that NEVER drives the drivetrain but can merely drive a generator that can charge the batteries.

Sorry, that is still a hybrid. There are (at least) two kinds of hybrid: parallel and series. Parallel hybrids like the Honda Insight work the way you describe. Series hybrids, like the GM Volt are still hybrids, though.

But your basic point is still correct. What makes the Volt different and better is it is pluggable. Series hybrids are better at that, since the motor always does all the work.

The Volt has basically two millages, infinite (battery only) and 40-50 with the generator running. The 240 mpg thing is somewhat dishonest, but does provide a reasonable comparison for expected gas usage for some daily use.

Steve, you can buy a Honda Accord for $20,000 that is superior in just about every way to the Volt except fuel consumption.

$20,000 buys a lot of fuel.

The Volt is an impressive technical achievement. At its current price, and even assuming a steep increase of gasoline prices, it's not a game change from any rational economic perspective.

As an insight into where motoring might go in the next decade, it's much more interesting.

I understand it now.

Glenn Beck is the demon love child of Matt Drudge and Ann Coulter.

He was born around 1997.

They never acknowledge him! Is that normal? Is that normal for people to just never mention their own, their own baby?

How must that make him feel !?

If your baby looked like that would you talk about him?

He must know this. He must know this. He is their baby. He knows who they are.

Hey "SHIT" I have fun with my dinky, Alt+13 "♪" but you be da man! WTF did you do to make that...shit? I guess a font call but what font?

Anyway, did you folk hear about this:

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/08/a-republic--if-you-can-keep-it.html.

[Rich] Lowry of National Review offered the White House his services in doing some positive P.R. on behalf of Rove protege Tim Griffin, who the administration had sought to sought to muscle into the U.S. attorney job in Arkansas as a replacement for the fired Bud Cummins.

Ummm, Alt+ circa 220 ....

It's misleading to call the Volt a hybrid. Initially it runs as a pure electric, the gas engine never runs. When the batteries run down it runs as a gas powered electric drive vehicle. The gas engine does not recharge the battery, it drives a generator which powers the electric motor to get you home to where you can recharge out of the wall. While the batteries are running down there may be a phase where it is running on both. GM is still developing the controls and hasn’t disclosed the details.

As to thermal efficiencies, about 40% of the heat energy at a large coal plant ends up as electricity; about 60% goes up the stack. Newer technologies using combined gas turbine/steam turbine cycles show promise of raising this as high as 70%. Compare this to a car where the amount of heat energy turned into motion is well under 20%.

On a sunny September morning in 2001, close to 3,000 U.S. citizens were murdered by right-wing religious fundamentalist fanatics.

Over the past several decades, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of U.S. citizens have lost their lives due to monopolistic, for-profit health care policies worked out behind closed doors at corporate insurance and pharmaceutical companies, in corporate meetings that some might describe as "death panels."

To maximize their profit margins, these corporate "death panels" would have discussed "risks" involving certain patients, pre-existing conditions and blocking any attempts by our government representatives to reform our (or should I say their) health care system, something that would cut into their profits.

To put it simply, this health care conspiracy among for-profit insurance and pharmaceutical company executives has killed far more U.S. citizens, week in and week out over the past several decades, than those murdered by right-wingers on 9/11.

Therefore, reforming our health care system is a top national security priority, reforms that should provide better care and universal coverage at lower government-negotiated prices, otherwise more 9/11-like atrocities will continue to occur in our nation's monopoly-run health care system.

Mark,

"Sorry, that is still a hybrid. There are (at least) two kinds of hybrid: parallel and series. Parallel hybrids like the Honda Insight work the way you describe. Series hybrids, like the GM Volt are still hybrids, though."

That is an extreme stretch. The basic theory of a hybrid is that two powerplants can drive the drivetrain, either each individually or simultaneously, but the non-electric powerplant (it could theoretically even be a tiny nuclear fusion reactor) in the Volt never drives the drivetrain. Calling something a "series hybrid" because it supposedly "indirectly" (HUH ?) drives the drivetrain is a made-up word.

"The Volt has basically two millages, infinite (battery only) and 40-50 with the generator running."

I assume you meant just the reverse.

"The 240 mpg thing is somewhat dishonest, but does provide a reasonable comparison for expected gas usage for some daily use."

I really didn't get into this because I think it's a diversion, but it isn't really dishonest if as they claim they checked the parameters of the loop with the EPA before running it. Obviously the reason it comes out with a triple-digit number is it runs just on the batts for the first 40 miles of the EPA loop. But if those are the rules governing the loop then those are the results. We shall see.

Robert,

"you can buy a Honda Accord for $20,000 that is superior in just about every way to the Volt except fuel consumption."

Oh no. The Volt is a technological leapfrog over anything the Japanese have. For now.

The price for the Volt could be $32K with a federal tax credit and below $30K with the addition of a state credit, and the price will fall as the batt production volume in the U.S. ramps up.

About the Volt.

Some kids at MIT studied a slight change in the way LIon batteries (the same in your laptop) were manufactured, while reducing capacity slightly, can be fully recharged in 8 seconds.

Posted by: IntelVet on August 11, 2009

I hope you're right. That would be awesome.

When they calculate mileage for gas/electric vehicles they ignore the electric input and only count the gas used. So if you drive 50 miles on battery and then 50 miles on one gallon of gas then you have traveled 100 miles on one gallon of gas for 100mpg. If you stop along the way and charge the battery you can get even better mileage. This is not dishonest, just not deterministic. You can get any mileage you want by adjusting the amount of charging. There needs to be a fixed course length with no charging allowed to come up with a consistent number you can use to compare vehicles.

The dead giveaway is the spelling of "guvmint" on the Medicare sign. Someone has been punked, just as with the Obama Kenyan birth certificate. That guy is having fun.

I went around with a "Long Live John McCain" poster last year when Palin was on the campaign trail. This guy is doing things in the same spirit.

Hi, Hilzoy, out there in the real world. We miss you--you would have been posting along about now, if you were still in the game.

Please come back.

open thread!

Here's something that I thought was hilarious as I was at another thread - there's a guy from the U.K., after every one of his posts, it has this:

________________________

fight organized crime, don't vote.

RE: the Volt: the discussion does not include the amount of energy and the source of that energy to charge the batteries from sources other than the onboard generator; and what fuels the onboard generator? Gasoline? How much and what type of fuel is required to generate the electricity that charges the batteries. 100 or 230 miles per gallon is not a complete calculation of the mileage from all types of fuel. I am not an engineer or petroleum/fossil fuel expert, but I do understand that there is another cost that is not being factored into the mileage estimates presented here. Anyone have the true cost of energy to operate this and similar vehicles?

There are TWO Roger Simons. The one who's for sure conservative is Roger L. Simon, former mystery writer (a pretty good one), current rightwing blogger (um, not so good) and CEO of Pajamas Media. Here's his Wikipedia entry, with photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_L._Simon

It's the other Roger Simon who writes for Politico and who wrote the column you referenced. I've read Roger II since he had a column in the Chicago Sun-Times (looser and funnier than what he writes these days), and I'd characterize his politics, then and now, as mainstream liberal.

Sorry Joe, but I think you have it wrong. The gasoline engine on the Volt is not intended to charge the batteries, it is intended to generate power to run the electrical drive train to get you home. They probably use the batteries to level the load on the engine a bit like present hybrids, but the whole idea is to get you home where you can recharge from the wall. It doesn't make sense to recharge using the gas engine when power from a wall plug is cheaper.

As a relative percentage of GDP, how does Obama's stimulus (all components combined) compare with Reagan's tax cuts? Both were dealing with economic trouble, one is spending the money directly while the other gave it back, but each took a leap and committed substantial resources.

How do the amounts compare, at least so far?

How about a zillion pmg? Will that change the game for you?
Dishonest math from GM.

Thetruthaboutcars again:

While General Motors has downsized physically and financially, the nationalized American automaker still suffers from a monumental mental disorder. Today's F5 PR tornado made that point pellucid. In fact, it's hard to know where to begin the diagnosis. We might as well start with the "big news" on the vehicle destined to become GM's Edsel. The General would have you believe that the Chevrolet Volt will achieve 230 miles per gallon in city driving. Yes, well, the Volt is supposed to surmount the first forty-miles on battery power alone. So I make that . . . zero miles per gallon; you know; as it's not using any liquid fuel. Hey! Anyone remember [former] Car Czar Bob Lutz's hand-wringing re: the Volt's gas supply fouling because owners would never use the internal combustion engine? Like that. Quick question: what drugs are these guys on? More accurately, why aren't they taking their meds?

This healthcare debate is ending up with lots of strange twists and turns.

Donald Rumsfeld is rumored to have made more than $5 million dollars on the sale of stock in the company that makes Tamiflu.

google: www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-hidden-truth-behind-drug-company-profits-176257.htm

it has a link that talks about cheap meat linked to swine flu.

***Pres. Obama talked about not feeding animals/poulty with antibiotics.

In the article about cheap meat - scientists believe the swine flu and bird flu is linked to "farm factories" with birds and pigs.

**note, how much did the guv spend on Tamiflu products?

I really feel sorry for the protestors being used as political ponds that don't want health care reform.

.
This just in:
SOYLENT GREEN IS WHITE PEOPLE!!!

There's photographic evidence. The healthcare scam is just a recycling program!
.

Thanks for the link to the article about HRC's trip to East Congo. It was really touching.

But of course if I only watched my local ABC affiliate, all I would know is that she snapped when asked what her husband thinks.

Really, the MSM's childish pile-on of anything that shows her in a bad light (to the complete exclusion of showing anything good) is incredibly off-putting.

Do the Republicans feel that video of an overweight, psychotic slob spitting in the octagenarian, infirm Specter reflects well on their side? We seem to be heading towards slob mobocracy.

JohnK,

"There needs to be a fixed course length with no charging allowed to come up with a consistent number you can use to compare vehicles."

There is. It is called the EPA test loop. GM says they got the parameters directly from the EPA, so we shall see if it is confirmed when the EPA itself runs it.

J. Frank,

"Sorry Joe, but I think you have it wrong. The gasoline engine on the Volt is not intended to charge the batteries, it is intended to generate power to run the electrical drive train to get you home."

The non-electric powerplant can only charge the batteries. That is why you can only travel 40 miles on the batts alone but still drive coast to coast.

"They probably use the batteries to level the load on the engine a bit like present hybrids"

The non-electric powerplant never drives the drivetrain.

"It doesn't make sense to recharge using the gas engine when power from a wall plug is cheaper."

It does if you're driving from New York to California.

:]

Roger Simon is a conservative?

Joe,

Slowly now:

The gasoline motor in the Volt drives a generator.

The generator produces electrical power.

The electrical power drives the electric motors that move the car (the same motors the batteries power).

The whole scheme is similar to diesel electric drives found on ships, locomotives, and WWII U.S. submarines, only with a gas motor. I am not saying the batteries are not involved at all; GM is still developing the controls and hasn't disclosed the details. However, the purpose of the gas motor is to drive the car after the batteries are exhausted, not recharge the batteries.

J. Frank,

"The gasoline motor in the Volt drives a generator. The generator produces electrical power. The electrical power drives the electric motors that move the car (the same motors the batteries power)."

That is the 'indirect' argument I addressed upthread. The non-electric powerplant never drives the drivetrain.

"However, the purpose of the gas motor is to drive the car after the batteries are exhausted, not recharge the batteries."

Nope.

You are obviously unaware of the configuration. The batteries are never "exhausted". When they get down to 40%, the powerplant drives the generator to recharge the batteries.

Call it a standoff; we will find out when GM releases more details. I am impressed with your confidence in your opinions when GM’s statement is that the battery-gas engine handoff and balance are undergoing intense development.

I consider at 40% the battery is exhausted as this is the intended design limit to which the car is designed not to exceed. If you want to call the 40% point something else feel free. Running the power from the gas motor to the battery rather than directly to the wheels will result in small but significant loses. In truth I suspect the car does a bit of both (as I mentioned before). The whole point of the gas engine is to get you home after a forty mile drive so you can recharge your (40%) exhausted batteries with cheap power out of the wall, not to drive 2000 miles cross country (although of course it would allow you to do this).