AND it won't gain them one vote. Pass a good bill, no harm will come, and the confused ones will vote for the Dem. The birthers are not talking about health care in any case.

Just like the stimulus bill.

This has nothing to do with the issues and everything to do with creating constant opposition.

The "beaten wives" Democrats continue to try to make the laundry a little whiter to stop the beatings. They know the GOP still loves them, and as long as they don't do anything to make them angry, all will be well.

We got 60 votes for this shit? God I hate my party.

Yes, but how much do we really lose by this? Let's face it, as far as losing battles this one is pretty minor. Honestly, if it comes down to this or spending the money anywhere else on healthcare, I'll pick the anywhere else.

sometiems it is extremely hard not to sympathize with the naderites who gave us GWB in 2000 with their mantra that dems and repubs are all of the same cloth.

it would have been considerably easier to continue to denounce that crowd if Obama had taken any concrete and substantial steps to hold people accountable, e.g., for torturing in our name.

now with each passing day and yet another example of the democrats' limpdikedness, the neurons of the brain have no choice but to focus the mind on the pointlessness of supporting the democrats with all of one's heartfelt passion.

Oh, wow, this is frustrating. Why are our elected representatives such cowards? Why is it so insane to expect our elected representatives to do what they think is right?

Anyone who has had to deal with the death of a family member knows how important these issues are. I'm truly disgusted. Can't even think of a snarky joke.

From the desk of Evan Bayh:

Everyone knows that ObamaCare will lead to the euthanization of our elderly and our handicapped young.

Everyone knows that ObamaCare is intended to provide free healthcare for blacks and browns at the expense of hardworking white persons.

Everyone knows that ObamaCare is intended to destroy the health insurance industry which has worked so hard to provide the world's best medical care.

Therefore, as a moderate democrat, I must oppose ObamaCare in any format.

Anyone who says that the $340,000 a year my wife receives for being on the board of directors of Wellpoint (Anthem/Blue Cross/Blue Shield) has any impact upon my position is being unfair. As always, I strive to do the best for my real constituents in the corporate world.

Love your articles; read nearly every day. I'm terribly worried about the outcome of the health care legislation. Lest you think that misrepresentation of what is in the House bills is the work of only the crazies, I implore you to listen to the Town Hall meeting held by Congressman Kevin Brady, 8th district,Texas. They just replayed it on C-Span radio. The Congressman, even for a GOPer, is a disgrace. His intentional lies and misrepresentations regarding the legislation will make you sick. It so upset me that I telephoned his office and told him what I thought....as if he cares. Keep up the good work.

Let's face it, as far as losing battles this one is pretty minor. Honestly, if it comes down to this or spending the money anywhere else on healthcare, I'll pick the anywhere else.

Honestly, if this had anything at all to do with how we spend money, this would be minor. But it isn't about the actual policy issue, it's about how some nuts can affect the direction of the country. What this is about is showing--conclusively, mind you, through actual results--that our cowardly elected officials can be influenced by orchestrated acts of intimidation and violence. So, wing-nut media, the lesson is clear: incite manufactured outrage and you will win.

This is huge, and hugely disappointing.

"And here's the real kicker: it won't make any difference."

You know, I was thinking this exact same thing this morning... does anyone know of even one rebumblican congressperson that would vote for the bill if end-of-life counseling was removed?

Neither do I.

As others have said, since they're pretty much manufacturing wild claims out of thin air, it won't make any difference if this is stripped out of the bill or not...it won't stop the teabaggers from just making up other stuff because what the teabaggers are really upset about are 1)they lost and 2)we have a black president.

It really is that simple.

Though if we lose this provision and still get public option, I won't lose any sleep over the teabag geezers having to dip into their own pockets to pay for end-of-life counseling sessions with their doctors. I don't have a problem with someone paying for stupidity, so long as it's the people responsible for it.

Here's a strategy no one is proposing (maybe there's good reason for that). Make them vote. Make the GOP vote against every good idea and good policy that has been polluted by this toxic swill. Many members of Congress know that the crap they are flinging is, in fact, crap, and they would like to quietly support good, non-controversial bipartisan policy after the cameras have gone away.

They hate the idea of killing good ideas on the altar of Limbaughism, but not enough to actually cross their right wing gods openly. For example, Dems should promote the "eliminate government health care takeovers" bill that eliminates Medicare and Medicaid. After a while, they will have to make votes that anger the crazies or make crazy votes that repel independents. Make them own the crap that they are flinging around like angered monkeys at the zoo.

Make 'em vote on this crazy stuff. Put them on record. It's one of the real powers of being in the majority.

Following the same logic...

So if Medicare pays for hysterectomies, that means everyone has to get one? That means some 'government bureaucrat' is going to be empowered to tell you and your wife, your sons and your daughters, 'go out and get a hysterectomy -- or else'?

OMG leo, this is a good point.

The provision that pays for radio therapy for cancer patients should be immediately removed otherwise Obama's Sterlization Councils will reduce the sperm count of every white man in America in order to affect a substantial reduction in the white population.

But leo, isn't a hysterectomy the same as an abortion? It stops reproduction and that is a sin against nature and god. Pay for Viagra, but not for hysterectomies. Keep those goper babies coming!

May I refer you to my congressman Latourette (R-OH)..

Bloggerinterrupted.com: "You're not going to vote for healthcare reform in any form, are you?"

Latourette: "That's a bulls%$t question."

You are negotiating with yourself, President Obama.

Wait until you see what you've unleashed, leo. Just wait.

True story: a friend of mine sarcastically commented on a random "traditional marriage" blog that the dictionary definition of marriage does not specify gender, therefore, there is a vast left wing dictionary conspiracy against christian morality. 3 weeks later, it was a headline on WingNutDaily.

You have unleashed horror, leo, mark my words.

Leave it in the bill and ask every one of these asswipes to prove what they're saying.

when will these wimpy Democrats realize that folding every time the lying GOPs have a tantrum just makes it worse -- it is blood in the water

if 45 Democratic Senators had stood up and done interviews lauding the living will idea -- and giving anecdotes about how it improves family life -- we would be so much better off than this cringing which simply fuels the idea that evil was in the bill

perhaps it is time to just get rid of all government health care -- let all these geezers (of whom I am one) just go buy health insurance on the open market -- give them 100$ a month subsidy and be done with it. this is of course the ultimate GOP goals -- get rid of social security and medicare but these ignorant fools don't understand that when they stand up and bray.

I have never been so disgusted with Americans as in watching these selfish selfish people whose argument seems to be 'keep giving me government health care, but let's make sure that working Americans who are paying my medicare bills don't have access to health care for themselves and their children'

if Democrats can't govern -- and apparently they can't -- then the country is done.

The neocons never tire of calling the left a bunch of Neville Chamberlains. But this can certainly be used to describe a great number of Democratic politicians. They are so easily and transparently bullied and they continue to think the bullies are rational and can be placated. They hold the long discredited belief that the right is responding to legitimate concerns on which to negotiate. All they are doing, and all they are claimed to do, is stymie change with any thing that will work. They don't want to have a little bit of Czechoslovakia; they want Europe and they always "negotiate" in bad faith. It is truly truly remarkable.

Where TF is AARP on this kind of thing?!!! Their members want information about end of life procedures, pain alleviation, hospice care, the documents necessary to assure they don't become the next Terri Schiavo. And they're sitting on their pink asses, not doing a thing, as far as I can tell. About time for a real old people's lobby, more interested in the interests of its members than its profits, to get started. Or is there one already?

At this point I'm for legislation that would immediately repeal EVERY federal health care program including Medicare and the VA. You want government OUT of health care? Done.

Now go stand on your own two feet and not worry about being trod upon. Assholes.

Actually, I take some of that ire about AARP back. They've been doing stuff, just not enough.

Up until very recently, this provision was a common-sense idea that enjoyed bipartisan support. It would help seniors and their families plan for end-of-life care; it would help guide physicians and doctors; it would help save taxpayers money; and it would help honor patients' wishes. Even insurance companies are fine with it.

But after a right-wing temper tantrum, based on confusion and lies, lawmakers are prepared to dump the idea altogether.

I had to repaste this for emphasis. Why don't the Democrats and Obama say the above? Repeat it over and over again. Flood the airwaves with it. Stamp it on the foreheads of these rightwing screamers. Why is this so hard? What am I missing?

Completely utterly INSANE. Our ELECTED legislatures would rather take out a provision that makes TOTAL sense than leave it in and do their jobs of explaining to the constituents WHAT IT MEANS!!! If they believe that they are above talking/educating the people that voted for them then they shouldn't be in Congress. DO write to your congresscritters and tell them to cut this shit out.

NO !!
This is the Third Wave fo Tea Bagging
NOBODY paid attention to them the first two times
Now, they're disrupting Congressional Town Halls

Why not just Call Sarah Palin a LIAR ?
Why not call Noot Gingrich a LIAR ?
It's ture isn't it ?
They're lying about Death Panels

Obama reminds mean of a school yard wimp
The bullies see he won't fight back, so they're on him

Obama has to FIGHT BACK !!

This is just as frustrating as the primaries when Obama wouldn't fight back against the Clintons

Don't be a SISSY, Obama
FIGHT BACK

and TELL US WHAT YOU WANT IN HCR !!

Good God !!

Once again, the US is a democracy being led by a batshit insane minority.

But but, I was just reading think progress website, reading a speech given by Palin where she was encouraging everyone in Alaska to get end of life counseling!!!!!!

Its not just seniors who need living wills.

Many young nurses and other health care workers have living wills. They see the torture that is inflicted on the terminally injured and ill by a health care system that is more concerned with profit and CYA than in "empathy" and compassion and reality. They know, from experience that they do not want anyone to put them through thank kind of pain, if they are ever in a situation where their future quality of life does not justice the expense and agony.

Gee, no surprise to me.

When you have Congressmen, the White House, and blogs like this one, always jumping up and down every time a Republican, or Fox News host, or other wingnut says anything, what do you expect?

We need the Democrats, and especially the liberal blogs, to stop being scared of the Republicans and to stop reacting every time someone says something outrageous.

Blogs like this one are creating a weak, defensive Democratic Party.

STOP talking about THEM, and start talking about the agenda and those WE ELECTED to move that agenda.

The front page of DK has a great diary about Richard Trumka's speech today. THAT is what we need to do, hold Democrats accountable.

But all Steve seems to care about is the Republicans. Look at the posts on this blog, other than the round-ups, 11 out of the 12 posts on this site are about the Republicans and their spokesmen.

The angry mob will just make up another lie, such as Obama's "Cash for Grandma" program where the government will give you up to $4500 towards the cost of childbirth if you euthanize your grandmother.

And the rest of congress, as well as the American people, are going to be forced to accept whatever the secret Baucus group of six writes...why? Oh right it's "bipartisan", meaning Baucus does whatever his for-profit insurance and GOP masters want. Got it.
This is truly disgusting, I just get more and more pissed with each passing day. I'm starting to think Nader will be proven right in the long run as well.

Posted by: Joesbrain on August 13, 2009 at 3:33 PM

another thing they could be doing is, as Bob Somerby has been saying, talking a whole lot more about how the healthcare systems in countries such as Canada, France and the UK work. He has accurately compared us to North Korea, the way that we seem to have a near total blackout on information from other countries re healthcare.
I've only seen progressive blogs discuss them sproradically, if at all. Everywhere else it's a complete blackout--including the "liberal" NYT.

Eh, they can put it back later.

Probably worth doing even if it will only deflect the idiot echo chamber slightly.

I understand the frustration at giving into the right, but let's just drop it and move on. I feel the same about abortion, impotenece drugs, anything else that would threaten reform by igniting the culture wars. We need to focus on major medical. That's where the problem is, and that is what we need to fix. The bells and whistles can come later - after we have the basics in place.

Lawmakers can take the measure out of the bill, and right-wing critics will continue to equate reform with the Nazi Holocaust, because a) they're unconcerned with reality; and b) they'll assume the measure is still there anyway.

It's a good thing to remember that (a)you are trying to win the swing voters in the Blue Dog districts so that you can get the Blue Dogs on board; and (b) lots of swing voters are paying attention to the debate and sharing information among themselves.

As to the "lies" about the end of life counselling, it's worthwhile to read Camille Paglia's take on this, and her critique of the Obama/Democrat's supercilious response. End of life counseling will be a procedure for which the physician gets reimbursement (which reduces the "voluntary" feeling of patient and physician), and it will be a way to bring pressure on the elderly to give up their entitlement to care. It will probably lead to lots more Terry Schiavo situtations where members of Congress become "outraged" over particular end of life decisions. Privacy will almost for certain be invaded by elected officials, those ultimately responsible (as they will remind us endlessly) for spending the taxpayers' money wisely.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease" is hardly a new phenomenon, and neither is members of Congress responding to constituent mail, email, phone calls, and public performance.

But after a right-wing temper tantrum, based on confusion and lies, lawmakers are prepared to dump the idea altogether.

President Obama commands the biggest bully pulpit in the world, and he needs to start using it. He should start holding press conferences once a week, in prime time (and screw the networks wailing about losing money) and put and end to this nonsense by taking on these lies point by point, and explaining to people exactly what reforming health care is all about and what it will -- and won't -- do. As we've seen to a depressing degree, the media clearly doesn't give a shit about doing their jobs, so Obama should just go direct to the people with the facts.

"The World" on NPR this afternoon had a segment in which a German and a French commentator were asked for their impressions of the healthcare debate. In short, it looks utterly insane to them. In both countries healthcare is a right, and it is inconceivable to them that a violent revolt would arise from attempts to protect the sick and vulnerable.

This "debate" is looking sick and incomprehensible to foreigners.

Marler you never disappoint.

MikeK already graced us with the idiotic, nonsensical, patently false screed by Paglia where she thought the bugfuck insane Palin "had a point".

Nice handwaving speculation of the impact of end-of-life counseling (voluntary, of course) though. Got any support for your ahem "assertions"? Didn't think so.

If Republican Congressmen want to use more end of life decisions as a cudgel to ultimately smash their own twisted ideology into pieces I say have at it.

"The angry mob will just make up another lie, such as Obama's "Cash for Grandma" program where the government will give you up to $4500 towards the cost of childbirth if you euthanize your grandmother."

"Cash for Grandma"? Is it true? It must be true!

$4500 for your kid if you agree to knock off grandma! And how's he going to pay for it? Why, with deficit spending naturally! That's nothing but a 'tax on our grandchildren'!

So this guy, Obama, who wasn't even born in America, is going to tax our grandchildren to knock off grandma so that illegal aliens can have gold-plated child-deliveries at the hands of government bureaucrats.

It's just sooooooo wrong!

As to the "lies" about the end of life counselling, it's worthwhile to read Camille Paglia's take on this

We already did, and no, it isn't.

End of life counseling will be a procedure for which the physician gets reimbursement (which reduces the "voluntary" feeling of patient and physician)

No, it doesn't, which is why you don't even try to support such a silly assertion. Physicians get reimbursed, one way or another, for everything they do. But they cannot do a damn thing without the patient initiating the contact. This is as silly as claiming that because physicians get reimbursed for performing vasectomies, this reduces the "voluntary" feeling of patient and physician in this area. It's incredibly stupid.

and it will be a way to bring pressure on the elderly to give up their entitlement to care.

Nor can you support this bit of stupidity, either, as it does not logically follow from *anything* in the bill or in real life. Get real, Matthew.

It will probably lead to lots more Terry Schiavo situtations where members of Congress become "outraged" over particular end of life decisions.

No, Matthew, it won't. We already have such counseling scenarios all over the country and this just isn't happening, nor is there any reason to believe that it will.

Privacy will almost for certain be invaded by elected officials, those ultimately responsible (as they will remind us endlessly) for spending the taxpayers' money wisely.

No, Matthew, it won't, anymore than it is invaded by insurance officials today. In this one area, the actual discussion between patient and physician is not recorded, nor is there any requirement that it be recorded. Hence, no loss of privacy of any kind.

Even for you, Matthew, this was moronic. And that's saying a lot, given your track record. Come back when you're prepared to provide something real.

While most people who file "living wills" opt for DNR's, palliative care, and the like, some actually stipulate that every last dime available should be spent on their last week or month of life...

Read the sad story of Susan Sontag's demise, if you don't believe me.

Paul B:We already have such counseling scenarios all over the country and this just isn't happening, nor is there any reason to believe that it will.

The difference is that now the counseling sessions are not among the things that physicians are required to bring up among their patients, nor are they reimbursed for the service when they perform it. recall that the "fee for service" is a purported flaw in the present system, and this flaw is incorporated into the proposed reform.

To me, yours is the kind of supercilious response that will not win over the support of the undecided. Without explicit provisions preventing the government from doing so, government will almost for certain overstep its legitimate authority.

If the supporters want to write, email, phone, fax etc. their representatives and senators and explain what a great idea this end of life counseling is, then let them do so. It looks to me like the opposition dwarfs the support, and lots of the opposition is neither reflexively partisan nor benighted.

The difference is that now the counseling sessions are not among the things that physicians are required to bring up among their patients, nor are they reimbursed for the service when they perform it.

We do it anyways, and would continue to do so irrespective of reimbursement, because it's the right thing to do. Incentivizing a specific decision or outcome is not what's being proposed, but that's what the wingnuts are suggesting. As it is, patient autonomy and respect for their wishes remains paramount, and nothing being proposed changes that.

It is a lie to intimate otherwise.

To me, yours is the kind of supercilious response that will not win over the support of the undecided. Without explicit provisions preventing the government from doing so, government will almost for certain overstep its legitimate authority.

You think paying me for doing what's right for my kids and their families will somehow lead to government overreach, but had nothing to say about the Bush regime's illegal wars, wiretaps, and torture leading to a slippery slope? You've just gone from semi-credible conservative to another member of this white trash temper tantrum.

If the supporters want to write, email, phone, fax etc. their representatives and senators and explain what a great idea this end of life counseling is, then let them do so. It looks to me like the opposition dwarfs the support, and lots of the opposition is neither reflexively partisan nor benighted.
Posted by: MatthewRMarler

The opposition is boorish, loud, and ignorant. Theirs and your conflation of this issue will lead to a clear disincentive for physicians to discuss end of life care when appropriate, which, in turn, is more likely to lead to further Schiavo-type cases of protracted futile care. ...

Accordingly, I hope you and your family are healthy.

The difference is that now the counseling sessions are not among the things that physicians are required to bring up among their patients

Nor are they required to under the proposals currently under consideration. Next?

nor are they reimbursed for the service when they perform it.

Sigh.... Yes, Matthew, they are, depending on the nature of the session and the patient's insurance policy. End-of-life counseling sessions happen all the time out here in the real world. You should join us someday.

recall that the "fee for service" is a purported flaw in the present system, and this flaw is incorporated into the proposed reform.

So? You have yet to even come close to demonstrating that this makes even one iota of a difference. Nor have you addressed the huge, gaping flaw in your argument that, assuming that this "fee for service" matters as much as you seem to think it does, that doctors will have a vested interest in encouraging their patients to *prolong* their care, not to give it up, which renders your argument moot. You can't have it both ways, Matthew.

To me, yours is the kind of supercilious response that will not win over the support of the undecided.

So? I'm not trying to "win over the undecided." I'm destroying the arguments of a dishonest partisan, who decided to post mindless drivel and sweeping emotional assertions instead of discussing substantive issues in a rational way.

Without explicit provisions preventing the government from doing so, government will almost for certain overstep its legitimate authority.

ROFL.... Note the continuing use of the sweeping assertions without even a shred of evidence, logic, or reason to support them. No, Matthew, it won't.

If the supporters want to write, email, phone, fax etc. their representatives and senators and explain what a great idea this end of life counseling is, then let them do so.

They have, Matthew, which is why it's in the bill. Nor have you demonstrated even one single reason why such planning and counseling is *not* a great idea.

It looks to me like the opposition dwarfs the support

Really? The "opposition" is opposed to "death panels" and "mandatory end-of-life counseling," neither of which actually exists. When the question is phrased honestly, the support dwarfs the opposition, as you well know. When you're tired of playing silly games, do let us know, won't you?

and lots of the opposition is neither reflexively partisan nor benighted.

Yes, Matthew, it is, as your posts here clearly demonstrate. Q.E.D.

"WHEN IN DOUBT, GIVE THE MOB WHAT IT WANTS.."

Its called squeaky wheel politics. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The problem is that the liberals, progressives and left-wing have been so passive since the Vietnam war that the Reich-wingers are the only loud voice in American politics today. As a result so many Democrat politicians have been shoved to the right for so many years that they only think about progressive values at election time to win votes. Otherwise the former Democratic liberal block is cowed, under the thumb of the Reich-wing.

And don't expect obama to do anything. He is totally in the pocket of the authoritarian culture that is dominated by the Reich-wing.