that same 26% never left Bush's side and clearly brought victory to McCain by an overwheliming margin. Oh wait, that did not happen? My bad. These people want and need to believe that Obama, the dems, and the dreaded "other" are evil and the root of all that ails them. It is that simple. You can't blame God. You can't blame ma and pa. You can't blame your god-fearing townsfolk. It's gotta be the "other." And now, the dark "other" is running the show. Clean up in aisle three.

eric

These results need to be compared with the poll regarding Republicans viewing of FOX News.

Because they've been lied to so often, they actually think Democrats literally might start killing people.

That's part of it. The rest is projection. You know the constantly cheating husband who's paranoid that his spouse will be unfaithful? The compulsive liar who continually disbelieves what other people tell her? That's today's bubba party and its fear of "death squads."

Hey, we're not the ones who go around wanting to wipe out the entire Muslim world or brandishing weapons at people who disagree with us politically. I don't remember any liberals calling for armed revolution when Bush was busily stripping us of our civil liberties and starting wars based on total falsehoods. These guys think violence and killing are the solution to everything, and they assume everyone else must feel the same way. The reptile brain at work.

Faux Noise presents the truth - according to Sara.

The Corporate Media provides their assigned role of echo chamber and message amplifier.

The Amerikan sheeple are convinced of the 'truth' that:

- ObamaCare will have death panels
- ObamaCare will euthanize the elderly
- ObamaCare will provide health care for illegals

- Obama is a Muslim Kenyan
- Obama is the antichrist

- Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster with a lesbian bullet

What a country we have become where truth has no value to the reich-wing and dumbocraps do not have the gonads to fight them and the corporate media will not call them on the truth.

What a country we have become where corporate money and power have become paramount to controlling the government.

What a country we have become where Obama provided so much promise and so much disappointment.

For real change - Feingold/Sanders in 2012!

This data tells me that the media has been covering this falsehood in he said/she said fashion at the insistence of the 11 percent who choose to believe the lie.

Actually, an unbiased media wouldn't care about an angry fringe group screaming nonsense, but their coverage of "death panels" is just more evidence that today's traditional media is complicit in the dissimination of such lies--primarily by giving the impression that these fringe players make up the majority.

Remember when we were "bleeding heart" liberals? Now we're going to kill your grandmother. How times have changed.

Am I wrong to be heartened that 72% of the population believe that this is a lie? Couldn't an adept party or administration turn this overwhelming perception that opposition to health reform was BS into an insurmountable advantage? Where's the push back?

Authoritarian followers will "believe" anything their authoritarian leaders tell them to believe, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

This explains:

Fundamentalist Christians
Fundamentalist Muslims
Focus on the Family
The people who still believe Saddam masterminded 9/11
Sarah Palin followers
Hard right-wingers
Die-hard Republicans
The Marines
Fox News
Rush Limbaugh
The Bush presidency
and Lynyrd Skynyrd fans.

As I've stated here before, this "death panel" stuff is pure psychological projection: as they would deny coverage to the 'undeserving' (read 'non-white') and the poor, as they would like to send gay folks and liberals and socialists to death, they really expect the left to do the same thing to them. That's just what they think the 'other team' will do.
And, given that most of these folks live in a seamless media bubble, never hearing much that would challenge these idea, and now being actively mislead and lied to by the folks they know and trust for fairness and balance, of course they are scared.
That and they are addicted to fear and outrage, and find them empowering.

moderate Republicans are the new fringe.

It would be nice if said moderates woke-up, and smelling the crazy, decided to vote independent. perhaps that's what will come out of all this desperate GOP reliance on the base.

And ok, let's leave Lynyrd Skynerd out of this.
Tastes, or lack of it, varies.

David @10:15 "Where's the push back?"

There won't be any real push back because the dumbocraps who are not corporately owned are virtually all of the Harry 'Gonad-Free' Reid variety. Obama has not displayed a willingness to get down & dirty and fight the rethugs and the corporations on their level.

We have witnessed a gunfight over health care reform. The rethugs brought corporately provided machine guns and the dumbs brought pocket knives.

When did being STUPID become palatable or even encouraged, in America?

Yet Obama and the Dems are buckling to this extreme minority.

Presidents, as well as Senators and Representatives, can be primaried.

....moderate Republicans are the new fringe.
It would be nice if said moderates woke-up, and smelling the crazy, decided to vote independent.

What good are a few hundred votes in a nation of 300 million?

If only Republicans had to go before death panels, that would be a change I could believe in.

Losers are always the most dangerous group in a society. The Klu Klux Klan grew out of defeated confederate soldiers. Hitler's Brown Shirts were the defeated German soldiers of WWI. This is about republicans winning, at any cost. The fuel for their fires are the male voters who did not vote for Obama or the democrats, and were, until the August recess, losers.

There are some interesting studies, none of which I can cite at the moment, which link testosterone levels in football fans to the rise and fall of their teams. There was a recent study which found that the testosterone levels in traders rose and fell with the market. I believe that the Republican resurgence is "fueled" and reinforced by biological factors which have nothing to do with political issues and are well beyond the reach of any rational discussion.

I think health care/insurance reform is dead. The only possible good to come from this may be a temporary reduction in medicare outlay for Viagra.

and Lynyrd Skynyrd fans.

Hey, I liked Skynyrd. Sure, they had Sweet Home, Alabama but they also had Saturday Night Special

"Its a saturday night special
Got a barrel thats blue and cold
Aint no good for nothin
But put a man six feet in a hole."

Steve, I think you missed the most salient point of cognitive dissonance, which MR Bill touched on above.

These people oppose universal health coverage because they can't stand the thought that some "undeserving" (non-productive; i.e. poor) people might get medical treatment and be denied the opportunity to die in the street like the stray dogs these people believe them to be.

And here they are, self-identifying as being among those "non-productive" people they rail against. "Health care for non-productive me, but not for non-productive thee."

Am I wrong to be heartened that 72% of the population believe that this is a lie?

Not at all, I took a deep sigh of relief when I saw that. I personally think this is some of the best news we've had in the past few days-- the Bush deadenders are still deadenders, the vast majority of the country is really not nearly as gullible as we've all feared.

It also means that the lies are only working on the people who are used to swallowing GOP lies but they aren't working on anyone else. It also means that Sarah Palin will not become president.

Looks like we can add another book to the Bibles in America - the New American Gospel, as written by Sarah.

so we have a country that has approximately 26% of its population that contains a semi-functioning sociopathological cohort.

Quite an army of zombies!

I can understand why the zanies of the Repub right project a census conspiracy... some of these mouth-breathers and men with their heads growing beneath their shoulders may be ID'd when they jabber like imbeciles in doorways across the country, and get hauled away as a possible danger to themselves or others... right, al?

What I'd really love to see is a MSM outlet conduct the same poll and that become the headline-- the vast majority of Americans don't believe GOP lies and fear tactics. So those people standing there screaming at townhalls about death panels? They represent a TINY fringe minority, folks.

No, I'm not holding my breath or anything.

Jesus would've wanted all of us to not die destitute & desperate. You absolutely can not be against universal healthcare & still consider yourself to be a Christian. Period.
(All you ags & ath's out there, feel free to use that on the hypocrites who rail against health care while talking about a Christian uprising)

There was finally a decent piece on NPR this am: the Brits are finally getting appalled at the smears of the National Health by the American Right. One Richard Hannon, Conservative MP who has come on Faux, et al, to spread lies and misinformation is being chastised by the Conservative party. http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=111976186&m=111976232
And Lord Ara Darzi pretty much eviscerated the propaganda, called Sen. Grassely's lie about Sen. Kennedy "the most ludicruous thing I've ever heard" and "lies to set fear in people".
The Club for Growth's claim there is a 'meter running' and you will be cut off when you have too much spent, is a lie. I was happy. We need more like this: http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=111976186&m=111976232

These people oppose universal health coverage because they can't stand the thought that some "undeserving" (non-productive; i.e. poor) people might get medical treatment and be denied the opportunity to die in the street like the stray dogs these people believe them to be.

People don't want policies, they want morality plays.

Never underestmate the power of narrative. If people are presented with a choice between a satisfying narrative arc, in which the good guys win and the bad guys get punished, and an actual, functioning social provision, they'll take the coherent story over the boring social provision, even if they would benefit from the social provision.

I actually don't believe everyone who says they believe in death panels actually DO believe in death panels. Rather, they WANT them to be true so they insist they are to make it be true. See, if it's true, they're brave fighters for America's future rather than the pawns of the machine that they really are. If it wasn't so frigging dangerous, it would be sad.

"Greg Sargent, who called his "astonishing," added, "The key here is that the question was specifically worded to mirror Palin's assertion that Obama's death panel will evaluate a person's right to medical care based on whether they're productive in society."

That sounds like a horrific system.

Tying your right to medical care based upon your ability to be productive economically? Would that mean most would get health insurance based on their ability to get a job, or a job that provided such insurance?

What a nightmare scenario. I hope conservatives keep us away from such an inhuman system.
[/sarcasm]

There is nothing wrong with fibbing if the end you're seeking is a noble one. Obama lies all the time so I understand the need for the right to start a public dialogue about death panels.

Anyway no one is organizing or directing this discussion. Why is it so hard to believe that all these people became independently concerned about Obama's culture of death?

In a healthy society, the media would look at these data and realize that they're doing something very wrong.

One of these days this society is going to have to acknowledge the dismal fact that one of its "major" political parties is no longer a political party at all. It is instead a ragtag collection of con artists and their marks, of profiteers and lunatics, of the misleading and the misled. Its members consistently believe things that are demonstrably untrue. Its leadership consistently repeats those things. Its members and leadership have consistently displayed either a breathtaking ignorance of, or outright contempt for, the laws, values, history and institutions of this nation. They have worked assiduously to undermine the common good - in fact they have waged a generations-long assault on the very concept.

And now not only do they promulgate lies, they wage a concerted campaign to prevent anyone from even presenting the truth.

The GOP as currently constituted is at best a pathology, at worst a criminal conspiracy. But it is not a political party.

The Club for Growth's claim there is a 'meter running' and you will be cut off when you have too much spent, is a lie.

As with most of the Republican "arguments," the Club for Growth is taking something that happens all the time under our current system and claiming that it's something new and strange. People are dropped by their insurance companies for being too expensive all the time.

Why didn't the Obama Admin call Sarah Palin a LIAR ?
Why didn't they call Noot a LIAR ?

Obama is WEAK and a sissy

Bring back Howard Dean !!
We need a strong DNC Chairman

Nancy Pelosi is the only strong leader we have

Nancy Pelosi is the STEEL in the Democratic Back bone

Bispartisanship SUCKS

Because they've been lied to so often, they actually think Democrats literally might start killing people.

Well, from an evolutionary point of view, killing Republicans could be seen as a good idea - you know, the world's overpopulated and lowering the percentage of morons in the population is bound to improve the species, right?

The "Christians" in this country makes an atheist like me fervently wish for a vengeful God.

Even thought I voted Obama, I am not nieve enough to think he has not lied to America over and over again, I just like his lies better and I couldn't take bush any longer. Don't be fooled fools, THEY ALL LIE JUST AS YOU DO..........

See Bob Altemeyer's research for a clearer perspective on the 25%ers.
Explained briefly here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism

If you "grew up" watching Faux News, and accepted it was NEWS that you were hearing, then you tend to believe what they present as truthful. Like the sports score, weather, and traffic on your local station.

A parallel is the Michael Vick situation today. He apparently "grew up" in the rural south, where dog fighting was an acceptable form of entertainment. Never mind that it is not all that different from prize fighting or greyhound racing or Dick Cheyney killing scores of caged birds.

Then he had the veil lifted from his eyes by the law and a prison term.

Let us hope that those addicted to Faux News will have a similar revelation. . .

What is even sadder is when they are told the truth, when you quote the proposed bill or Obama's words they say "you're lying", He's lying". One can only shake one's head in disbelief. They don't "want" to know the truth if it disagrees with their already formed opinion. Just pathetic. Put their fingers in their ears and hum at the truth.

Never mind that it is not all that different from prize fighting or greyhound racing or Dick Cheyney killing scores of caged birds.

Well, except for dog fighting involving killing one dog and maiming another in every single fight, while 1) prizefighting involves creatures capable of giving consent and rarely results in death and 2) greyhound racing rarely results in death even though it's quite hard on the dogs.

I'll give you the caged birds, though.

Steve -

You need to crank this up a notch. I'm sure that you saw the Public Policy Polling (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_NC_811424.pdf) from last week. They asked the question to NC residents - Do you consider Hawaii to be part of the United States? 5% said no and 3% said I'm not sure.

I've been friendly with my neighbor for years. We picnic together and their kids and ours share friends, parties, and school folderall. He is a newly retired colonel in the Army Medical Corps.

Yesterday he punched me in the chest, knocking me down, and kicked me as he went by to walk his dog.

I had asked, "What do you think of the health care debate?" His response: "You democrats want to kill me and my family. Go to hell."

I think we are in for some scary times... Polls just don't measure the tenor or temper of this opposition.

Some of these people are so effing stupid that I'm starting to reconsider my position on whether oxygen, much less healthcare, is a universal right.

Yeah, I know it's elitist. Shoot me. I'm sick of having to fight this kind of battle for people to use their critical faculties.

Because they've been lied to so often, they actually think Democrats literally might start killing people.

OK, but what I want to know is how did they find out? Did we accidentally leak the memo?

Pat@10:13: Remember when we were "bleeding heart" liberals? Now we're going to kill your grandmother. How times have changed.

EPPEPPEPPEPPEP! We're bleeding hearts who want to kill your grandmother.

Our founding fathers said the country would only last until immoral people found they could vote other peoples money to their own cause and then the treasury would be wiped out.

LET'S SEE. WELFARE, SOCIAL SECURITY FOR THE POOR, MEDICARE/MEDICAID, HIGHWAY FUNDS TO FRIENDS AND THE LIST GOES ON.

BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS HAVE CAUSED THIS EQUALLY. YOU WHINING IMBECILES HAVE HELPED. YOU PEOPLE AND FAUX NEWS DISGUST ME.

KMA.........

What shortstop said at 10:08 AM. Word.

In case it hasn't already been said:

The GOP has a clear and probably multi-generation grip on the vital "gullible morons" vote. They have been selling their souls to cater to this voting bloc repeatedly over the past four years or so (much moreso recently than they had previously).

I think, unfortunately, it's paying off for them. There are a LOT of stupid, gullible folks out there. More important: they are incredibly reliable, and will turn out in droves at the polling booths when stimulated. Their very gullibility makes them highly valuable.

Unchecked, the national discourse could easily devolve into little more than attempt after attempt to sway this massive voting bloc over to your side. Of course, no one really wants that to happen, because the result is third-rate governance of a nation well on its way to becoming fourth-rate.

The ONLY way to combat this is to appeal to the folks who have some amount of credulity and intelligence. Show them, over and over again, just how blatantly untrustworthy their party has become to manipulate those voters. Ask them if they believe their party is not doing the same to them. Ask them: if they truly believe the house of cards set up as conservative policy and if it is truly correct, why would the party need to resort to lies and disinformation campaigns? Ask them if they can truly in good conscience reward this degradation of the national conversation, and thus promote our decline into insignificance in the world.

There are times when policy and politics become secondary to citizenship, of our nation and of our world. When someone threatens the life of our President, whether I agree with the President or not is irrelevant. When someone seeks to destroy the last shreds of honest intellectual and logical discussion, whether I agree with his politics is irrelevant; he must be stopped.

It's a depressing battlefront, though. The numbers of easily-misled and easily-worked-up are incredibly daunting. Yet, they *are* a minority. If the rest of us can stand FIRMLY against these tactics of deception and obstruction, we can defeat them. If we bifurcate, though, into the ranks of those who don't agree with the fomenters and the ranks of those who agree with them, the worked-up swing bloc becomes the deciding factor in every decision, and whipping them into a frenzy becomes the cornerstone of every future successful political movement.

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