One of my favorite movie quotes seems appropriate here...

"You now nothing. In fact, you know less than nothing. If you even knew that you knew nothing, that would be something. But you don't!"

Steve -- Time to go after the liars on all the media. People are being lied to not just by Fox News but by many persons who give quotes to Fox and other media outlets. Who will have the nerve to say to Newt, Sarah, Grassley, or any of the other folks spewing this nonsense -- Insert Name -- here is the language from the legislation "quote from legislation" and it flatly contradicts what you just said. Are you telling the truth?

No one has the nerve.

This result about Fox viewers suggests how much political error & ignorance is chosen. These people are mistaken about so many things because they prefer to believe lies.

The problem with going after the liars--which I approve of. btw--is that the people who follow them--the authoritarian followers--don't care what the facts are--they just want to belong--and if the price for that is to believe a lot of hogwash, so be it. They trust their authorities to tell them the myths that they want to believe--and no amount of debunking of lies or facts will change their minds. That is the problem in a nutshell.

Unfortunately, this is not new or news.

Let's not forget that misconceptions about Iraq, and particularly whether or not Iraq played a role in 9/11 (um, it did not), were significantly more pronounced among viewers of Fox News:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php

Fox News and its audience might take a moment to ponder why these viewers are so wrong, so often, about so much.

Its audience, certainly. But Fox News is doing exactly what it intends to do - sow false information into the info-stream. And they are apparently very successful.

We know why the Fox machine does it: (A)Murdoch makes money, (B) the cosy, "special relationship" on-air personailities have with the Republican Party.

Come to think of it, the situation is no different than Organized Religion.

How to combat it is the problem, and so far only addressed by Jon Sterwart. . .

take a moment to ponder why these viewers are so wrong, so often, about so much.

If watching Fox News is wrong, they don't want to be right.

The left has been too sanguine that corporate and right-wing monopolization of the press, television, and radio would somehow be bypassed by newer technology. The tidal wave of misinformation (lies) about health care reform from these sources again suggests reimposition of the Fairness Doctrine or at least a Democratic "News" channel.

to steal a line from "a fish called wanda," calling fox news viewers stupid would be an insult to stupid people.

A central part of this is attacking into your opponents' strength.

They take something and say it is exactly the opposite of what it is.

And then demand you prove your right to say the sky is blue by presenting your PhD.

And then they don't believe it.

They're a medical problem.

The tragedy? Yes We Can . . . . muddle in a pool of stupidity! Jefferson? Where the fuck is the collective wisdom? I am witnessing the travesty of professional manipulators massaging the unassuming to a threshold of violence - how unAmerican, or should I say, how ugly American! -Kevo

This result about Fox viewers suggests how much political error & ignorance is chosen. These people are mistaken about so many things because they prefer to believe lies.---Posted by: K on August 19, 2009 at 3:02 PM

K, it's bad enough that these people are STUPID. It's much worse to INSIST on being STUPID.

Might I suggest that the Donkeys make a commercial making exactly that point and run it during NASCAR and football events? State the smears circulating on health care, then state the facts. Then show the stats on how likely Fux Newz viewers are to be wrong as opposed to the rest of the nation (isolate the crazies). Then wrap up with an observation that someone has been playing too much football without a helmut or sniffing too many gasoline fumes.

Ah, yes. The Dunning-Kruger effect in action: They think they're smart but are too dumb to realize they aren't. Any attempt to educate them meets with a brick wall. They know what they know and they're sticking to it. A friend of mine is an avid Faux fan: She knows it's all true because IT WAS ON TEEVEE! TV refers only to Faux, all other channels are lying, donchaknow.

I am witnessing the travesty of professional manipulators massaging the unassuming to a threshold of violence - how unAmerican, or should I say, how ugly American!

Excellent point, Kevo. No matter what the intentions of Fox News with regards to politics and corporatism, the chronic misinforming of an entire political wing of our society is ultimately extremely dangerous. As they try to cope with more and more cognitive dissonance [like, "What I'm being told to believe and what I want desperately to believe don't seem to be jiving with what I'm seeing."] they are going to become angrier and more violent. See the shooting of liberals at churches and museums, for instance. And sooner or later another McVeigh is going to see an opportunity to fight the conflicting demons with a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and diesel fuel.

Meanwhile, I do see a chicken and egg question here. Are the viewers being made ignorant by Fox News? Or are Fox News viewers by nature ignorant to begin with?

Good luck cracking THAT nut.

I guess Charles Lane of the Washington Post is one of those right wing nuts, eh ? He's concerned about section 1223.

The left wing bubble is impervious to facts.

Health Care Reform is scary! Woooooooooooooooooooooo!
I got scared by it! Scary!

Wooooo.....

Of course, the greatest paradox of all, regarding conservatives, is that they:

1. Insist that America is the greatest nation that has ever existed on earth.

2. Refuse to believe that the U.S. government could possibly have anything to do with #1.

54% believe there will be a "government takeover" of the health care system;

That claim has been made by proponents in the House and Senate, not just by opponents.

Keep it up. Every time you lefties mock Fox News you make 100 more middle-aged broads go watch it.

I'm going to turn it on myself right now.

"Fox News viewers routinely get key details wrong more often than the rest of the public"

We've got ourselves a bad case of Chicken and Egg syndrome here

Were the Fox viewers stupid and misinformed before they started watching,
or did watching Fox lead to their condition?

Isn't that cute? Mike K thinks the Washington Post in general, and Charles "I'm falling for John McCain" Lane in particular, are liberal.

Thanks for singlehandedly proving the point of this post, Mikey.

Hey Real Mike,

It's an opinion piece designed to invoke conspiracy... again. Any person with a brain has these documents filled out and notarized already. How about you? Oh Noze! Bean counting death panels!

I'm going to turn it on myself right now. Posted by: The real Mlke K

When Kyl and others condemn the very government they campaigned and won an election to become part of, their disingenuousness is dangerous! If they truly believed the shit they spew about the very national institution in which they serve, they should at least have the human decency to resign, get a gun and man the ramparts. For anything short of such action merely points to what they really are - fetid, silver-tongued snake-oil agents whose fortunes are built upon the lies they have come to believe!

In the meantime, our elected government is held hostage by authoritarians who are throwing chum in the water while the rest of us merely want to catch a fish, and not have to contend with the flesh-eating predators these Repiblicans seem to keep inviting back! -Kevo

Fox News viewers are not confused.

They believe exactly what they want to believe; no more, no less.

Their goal is not to understand what is going on or have the facts on any given subject. Their goal is to receive reporting and opinions that re-enforce what they already believe. They are the most un-confused people in the country. They're wrong, not confused.

It would take an unlikely twist of self-reflection, but at a certain point, Fox News and its audience might take a moment to ponder why these viewers are so wrong, so often, about so much.

Uh...at the risk of repetition, but I'd bet good money Ailes and Murdoch would regard this fact as evidence of the smashing success of the network. Murdoch is IN BUSINESS to deceive people. And Ailes..well, we all know what Ailes is about.

Ironic that Th. Jefferson said something about a well-informed citizenry being necessary for a democracy. Faux News watchers seem to like to refer back to "the founding fathers" but this particular disconnect seems to escape them.

Calling the viewers of Fox News stupid will not change anything it will only drive them further into the opposition. Now I am talking about those who can have their minds changed by hearing the facts stated clearly, without condescension and with passion. Call me crazy but I think most people want to be thought of as reasonable and intelligent and further and that treating them as such often does more good than deriding them as a bunch of stupid rednecks.

What I find very sad and disheartening is the number of Fox listeners I know personally who are highly educated, i.e. physicians, collage professors, ect. who buy right into Foxes Shtick.
I guess ignorance can be learned and education can be unlearned. What a sad time for America.

What I find very sad and disheartening is the number of Fox listeners I know personally who are highly educated, i.e. physicians, collage professors, ect. who buy right into Foxes Shtick.

Where do you live? As I was reminded to my sorrow this week, sometimes people absorb and reflect the dominant culture of the places they live, regardless of their educational background.

It's The Lying, Stupid!

sadly shortstop that is very true. I live in North Dakota which is a highly educated state but a very conserative one. One of very few that still voted Repub in this last election. One who has not voted Dem since 1964 for Johnson. One that dislikes goverment and taxes yet has a state owned bank, state owned mill and elevator, and many co-ops. Guess that is where our Sen. Conrad is coming from with his co-op health plans. Like they are going to work. Go figure!!

Steve Benen wrote: "Fox News and its audience might take a moment to ponder why these viewers are so wrong, so often, about so much. That almost certainly won't happen ..."

GOOD GAWD, Steve.

Of course that won't happen.

Fox News is DELIBERATELY DECEIVING ITS VIEWERS.

Fox News WANTS its viewers to believe things that are NOT TRUE.

The entire reason for the very EXISTENCE of Fox News is to LIE TO GULLIBLE DUPES.

When the top management of Fox News sees those poll results showing how pathetically ignorant and misinformed their audience is, they will "take a moment to ponder" them alright -- then they will send a memo to all staff saying KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

I guess Charles Lane of the Washington Post is one of those right wing nuts, eh ? He's concerned about section 1223.

ROFL.... Do you always have this much trouble reading? Here, let me show you the relevant quote: "75% believe that it will allow the government to make decisions about when to stop providing care for the elderly."

Now, by all means, do tell us where in Section 1223, or in Charles Lane's article, it says anything about "allow[ing] the government to make decisions about when to stop providing care for the elderly?" We'll be right here, waiting.

The left wing bubble is impervious to facts.

ROFL.... Oh, the irony.... Lovely little strawman you're creating:

Right-wing morons: "This will allow the government to kill granny!"

Left-wing: "No, it won't. Nothing in the bill even comes close to doing that."

Right-wing moron: "See, the left can't admit that there might be flaws in Section 1223!"

You are hilarious, though, Mike, so at least you're good for something. Do feel free to come back when you're finally ready to have a substantive debate. You know what the *real* irony is? You could actually have provided something worth debating with that link, possibly for the first time ever. But because your partisanship outweighed whatever good sense or intelligence you might possess, you just come off looking like an idiot.

faux is the ultimate top-down organization....as for their viewers...."the bird goes in search of the cage"

The clown are still there. Good luck going it alone.

PaulB I didn't see your comment until I had hit post. Take a look at my blog if you want to see my substantive comments. You can even post disagreement and I won't delete your comment or send a bunch of fools posting fake comments. I just don't see much serious discussion here. Too bad because there used to be.

I'm waiting for you at my blog PaulB. Come over and we can talk m2m.

Try to see the forest. Regardless of the specifics being argued, the bills floating around are beyond 1,000 page monstrosities, difficult to understand expansions of government. The same government which can't manage social security, medicare, medicaid, post office, etc.

Cutting down Fox viewers and attempting to present yourselves as intellectually superior will not change the uneasiness that the people feel regarding this attempt at health care reform.

PaulB I didn't see your comment until I had hit post. Take a look at my blog if you want to see my substantive comments.

And this excuses your earlier idiotic strawman post here, why, exactly? Can you possibly defend that post on the merits? In any case, why should I bother checking your blog when you've given me exactly zero reason to do so?

Your every post here is either like the post on this thread, mindlessly partisan, or you're whining about "censorship" and "bubbles" or "echo chambers." I have yet to see even one thought-provoking post from you on this blog, and I was here when you first showed up.

I just don't see much serious discussion here.

That's mostly because you don't choose to provide any. Absent an *intelligent* conservative voice here, of course there won't be much discussion. Like most blogs, there is fairly widespread agreement among the regulars. That's as true of conservative blogs as it is of liberal blogs.

Too bad because there used to be.

Yup, but it sure wasn't due to you. In the early days, this truly was a bipartisan comments section. The best of the conservatives who posted here moved on to their own blogs and to blogs more conducive to their leanings, e.g., rightwing echo chambers like redstate. The worst of them remained here and trolled. Sadly, I count you among that latter number.

Fox News knows how to exploit their viewers' prejudices. The viewers listen precisely to have their prejudices validated. Their viewers believe: that America is the best country on earth and should not be questioned; that white men are anointed to govern and do it best; that Christianity should be dominant; that taxes are bad all the time; that poor people are just losers; that rich people must be superior and deserve their money; that profits are always a good thing - the more the better; that capitalism and democracy are the same thing; that Christianity and capitalism are the same thing; that being mean is promoting discipline; that government is bad because it attempts to level the playing field (insists on nondiscrimination) for all Americans, and more than anything that this country needs to be homogeneously white.

Cutting down Fox viewers and attempting to present yourselves as intellectually superior will not change the uneasiness that the people feel regarding this attempt at health care reform.

That may very well be true. Most of the opposition has developed because Fox and their fellow travelers have deliberately CAUSED that uneasiness with actual, outright, complete lies about what is contained in the bill.

That is why we are "cutting down Fox viewers." Because they believe L.I.E.S., and refuse to be educated about the truth.

Liberals may not be necessarily intellectually superior to Fox viewers, because, after all, regardless of the quality of the processor, garbage in, garbage out (hence those well-educated ND true believers).

But people who condemn the telling of total, brazen LIES in public discourse are certainly MORALLY superior to the people who further them. Fox believers may not be evil simply because they believe what they see on Fox, but the people on Fox who cynically lie and distort certainly are.

There's a reason one of the Commandments is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Like murder, theft, adultery, etc., it destroys human relationships and the very fabric of the community, the underpinnings of the polity. Yet these people are baldly bearing false witness -- with a smile! -- daily, hourly, minute by minute, around the clock.

Evil. There's no other word.

So Julia, are you saying that there aren't several 1,000+ page bills, very complex and confusing, that expand government involvement and that the government has done well with their other entitlement programs?

"...and that the government has done well with their other entitlement programs?" djs @ 8:37 PM.
Well, there's Halliburton and the banking industry, just to name two that certainly act as if they are entitled...

Deej, deej, deej. Do you think I'm stupid? Do you think that people reading this thread are idiots? That's a classic change-the-subject strawman-building project and I decline to participate.

You know what FOX News and their fellow propagandists are lying about. Steve outlined several instances in his post.

And see, that's the whole point. People like you KNOW exactly what you're doing, seeding the debate with lies and misdirection. And you don't just know Deep Down In Your Hearts. No. You know up front what you're doing and why. Clearly. Consciously.

Yet you keep on with your little rhetorical games, pretending all the while that you're a moral human being.

Get away from me.

yes, I think you are stupid

No you don't. If you did, you wouldn't bother with this. I don't think you're stupid, by the way. Not by a long shot. You're saying these things with, shall we say, slyness aforethought, in the service of bad people and bad ideas. You're trying to be clever.

It's not working.

My point is that the health care plan is not a major flop not because of evil fox or their morally depraved viewers.

Excuse me, but I made it clear in my original posting: what the movers and shakers at Fox (and other mendacious propagandists) are doing is evil, but the people who genuinely believe the lies, aren't, necessarily. They're just duped. By people like YOU, who make excuses for evil, to wit:

Your "point" about the legislation itself supposedly being the sole cause of FOX viewers' distrust is made, cynically, as a defense of FOX's lying.

Sickening.

Good night, everyone.

Try to see the forest.

What "forest" is there to see? Republicans are blatantly lying about the details of the bills and those lies are being believed, particularly by those who get their news from Fox News. There is no ambiguity or "forest" here. This isn't honest confusion; it's deliberate deception.

Regardless of the specifics being argued, the bills floating around are beyond 1,000 page monstrosities, difficult to understand expansions of government.

Um, personally, I had no trouble understanding the House bill, on which most of this criticism is based. I was certainly able to understand it well enough to be able to spot the deliberate lies being told about it.

The same government which can't manage social security, medicare, medicaid, post office, etc.

ROFL... Man, you guys have it bad, don't you? Okay, let's see -- Medicaid is managed by the states, who actually manage it pretty well. The Post Office is an independent entity, which is also managed quite well and hasn't needed public assistance for years. Medicare is managed very well, has held costs down better than private insurance, and is more popular than private insurance. Social Security is exactly the same -- managed quite well, effective, and popular. So yes, I would be happy to see the government handle health insurance.

Cutting down Fox viewers and attempting to present yourselves as intellectually superior will not change the uneasiness that the people feel regarding this attempt at health care reform.

Why should we not call ignorant people ignorant? Why should we not call out a network that is deliberately misleading its viewers? Why should we not point out that you're an idiot posting mindless partisan drivel? All of these are the simple truth.

So Julia, are you saying that there aren't several 1,000+ page bills, very complex and confusing, that expand government involvement and that the government has done well with their other entitlement programs?

a) The criticisms are based on one bill, the House bill.

b) The bill isn't even remotely "complex and confusing." The language and the provisions are quite clear.

c) The one statement you got right.

d) The government has done very well with the management of the other entitlement programs, which is why they are so popular.

Got anything substantive to say?

djs:

"Try to see the forest. Regardless of the specifics being argued, the bills floating around are beyond 1,000 page monstrosities, difficult to understand expansions of government. The same government which can't manage social security, medicare, medicaid, post office, etc."

I'm not going to argue if the bills are "monstrosities" or not.

However, I seriously question your statement about the entitlements and the Post Office.

I became eligible for SS last year. I went to the local SS office, got excellent and timely service. I had to wait a while to see someone as it's a very busy office but once I was with an employee the process of applying for my benefits was very easy and the employee was pleasant, efficient, and knew his stuff.

I cannot speak from personal experience with Medicare or Medicaid, although I will soon be eligible for Medicare. However, consider all the benighted people at the "Town Hells" screaming that they don't want the government messing with their Medicare, apparently unaware that Medicare is a government program. They are evidently satisfied with their Medicare.

My experience with the Post Office is that the employees are efficient and friendly. Mostly when I mail something firstclass it reaches its destination the following day. The Post Office handles millions, probably billions of transactions per day and the overwhelming majority reach their destination within a day or two. Yes, I occasionally get mail intended for someone else, and occasionally my mail goes astray. We're dealing with humans. But the mistakes are a very small percentage of the overall volume.

I get tired of this meme that the government can't do anything right. Just not true. Take off your ideological blinders.

Fox audience will remain dumb as long as they continue to lie to them.

Fox News went to court and won the permission to lie to them a few years ago.

http://www.ceasespin.org/ceasespin_blog/ceasespin_blogger_files/fox_news_gets_okay_to_misinform_public.html

I ran across a website that was going after the people over at *Politifact.com* because they were tracing back a chain email filled with lies about the health care. They didn't appear angry because she called them out on the lies, but because she mentioned them in her piece.

That said, I think they will probably have their own fact check site out next just as they do for polling.

I guess it's another one of those bad "liberal" media things. They don't trust anything or anybody that doesn't sound like Fox News.

On the question of the efficiency of Medicare: a couple of years ago my step-dad became deathly ill. He was in and out of hospitals and nursing homes for the better part of two years. During that ordeal, I handled all the insurance issues that arose (and they were legion) for my mom and step-dad. By far the biggest problem I had was with a private health insurer (very well-known national insurance company) which became my step-dad's primary insurer when he exhausted his Medicare hospitalization coverage. Repeatedly they failed to update their and Medicare's database to reflect changes in coverage. And by repeatedly, I mean at least half a dozen times. The result of their incompetence (the private insurer's) was of course unpaid bills to the tune of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars. After a complaint against the private insurer was filed with a Medicare oversight body (Medicare maintains controls over private insurers' Medicare replacement policies) the errors were finally resolved, but it took almost a year.

I also had a lot of contact w/Medicare during that time. By no means was it all error-free. Depending on who I got in the customer-service lottery when I called them, the info I was given could completely contradict something I had been told previously. However, the same was true of the private insurer. I learned to question what I was told no matter which entity, public or private, I was dealing with.

I still am not sure whether the delays/inefficiencies were intentional attempts to avoid paying for my step-dad's coverage (I know to many of you that sounds naive). But when Medicare was on the hook for the bills, they paid consistently and promptly. In fact, my step-dad intends to switch his coverage back to Medicare (from the private insurer) during open enrollment later on this year. That's how unhappy he has been w/his "government run healthcare." And believe me, he's no socialism-loving lefty - solid conservative Republican from Georgia.

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