These questionaires are designed to appeal to people who aren't, you know, rational. They come from a party that doesn't let things like rationality or truth or good policy stand in the way of their desire to harm the Dem Party.

Why you persist in trying to understand this stuff rationally is beyond me.

Guns to protect grandma

Nothing in there about the Big Bad Government Health Wolf taking away their guns?
They've slipped a notch of late.

While your post seems perfectly rational, making this point to a Republican voter would be pointless. Their world view is that government is, by definition, evil. This, of course, makes no sense, since they get to vote for who runs the government, but it is nonetheless true. As support for their world view, they point to the following main "evils" of government(i) taxes, (ii) waste and inefficiency, and (iii) when Democrats are in power, "wealth redistribution" and moral decay. Their world view gets reinforced regardless of who is in power. There will always be taxes, and in the Republican world view, they will never be low enough. Their view is reinforced even when Republicans are in power because Republicans do such a crappy job of running the government(intentionally, it would appear--see, e.g., Hurricane Katrina, outsourcing of essential government functions, warrantless spying, etc.). The the government never, in their minds, serve the people, any parade of horribles is believable. Therefore, no appeal to rational thought, like your argument, will be successful.

I've been arguing along the same lines with a repub brother-in-law. The only thing I can come up with is that this is another case of right-wing projection: This is what they'd like to do to people if they had the power.

REpigs, you want to be scared of something, instead of the big, bad healthcare wolf, look at your OWN DAMN PARTY. Remember, that while the GOP was supposedly “keeping you safe”, they waged an illegal war for profit, tortured and killed innocent people, terrorized and spied on the American people. Bush and Cheney served up 160,000 warm American bodies to offer as a sacrifice, but don’t worry, bu$h-Dick said, their deaths are a sacrifice that bu$h and "5-deferment Dick" are fully willing to make. Safe? My ass! Al Qaeda took full advantage of it too, and has taken twice as many American lives as they took on 9/11. What did we get for it all? Answer that question and you have the extent of Dick Cheney’s statesmanship. And let’s not forget the outing of Valerie Plame, an agent working on stopping the spread of WMD! Good thing the GOP is keeping you safe. Al-Qa’ida will be back. Iraq, GITMO, Abu Ghraib, Blackwater murders of innocent civilians, heavily-biased U.S. support for Israel, the use of DU bombs and chemical warfare by the U.S. (i.e., white phosphorous) and a host of other strategic errors have insured al-Qa’ida’s resilience, staying power and motivation. BE scared, you loons, but be afraid of your own party as they con you out of your savings, con you out of tax breaks for the poor and middle-class, start wars of choice that kill your children (that's the pro-life party, right?) and ensure hatred against the U.S., and trick you into not wanting healthcare for your friends and family. Yep, keep those insurance execs richer that rich, and most of you teabaggers struggling to get by. But-- repiggies, good. Dems, bad. My God, you gun-toting, racist, GOOPers are idiots.

Suggested response for Democrats when confronted by these type of claims: "You're absolutely right! That's a horrible idea? Can you tell me what part of the health care bills it's in so I can have it taken out?"

I know that logic is not a Republican strong point. But Republicans have really outdone themselves this time trying to that Democrats are at both one and the same time irresponsible over-spenders who don't care a hoot about taxpayer's money AND parsimoneous skinflints who will, in the cause of pinching a few pennies, condemn thousands of senior citizens to death by rationing needed care.

Think about it. Who is more likely to ration (i.e. deny) needed care. A private insurance company that stands to profit from withholding services? Or a democratically elected and accountable government?

Because we're atheistic homosexual communist nazis, remember?

The irony is that the South, where most of these morons live, is a national hotspot for diabetes, hypertension, and cancer (Texas and La.). The South also has the lowest insurance coverage rates.
So reform would actually benefit the average Republican voter more.

Please remember, Democrats aren't real Americans. Ergo, it's entirely possible that they do want these things.

Don't those questions represent the current state of affairs under insurance run healthcare?

Why would Dems want that?

Because they're secular progressive agents of Satan and they want all sorts of diabolical things. I thought this was clear.

One theory: It's projection.

Republican politicians are arguing "fictional" scenarios that nonetheless seem plausible to fellow Republicans, because those same Republicans could envision them doing the same to Democrats if the situation were reversed.

A variation might be "It's been suggested that Republican politicians might be unfairly targeted for prosecution in a Democrat-controlled Justice Department. Does this possibility concern you?" To Republicans hearing that, it's a frightening prospect precisely *because* they could easily imagine that scenario coming about, specifically themselves being on the delivering rather than receiving end of that bargian.

Could it be that the RNC is just projecting their MO onto the plan?

Does it make any sense to think Democrats would take this rare opportunity to approve legislation that would kill off seniors, while making things drastically worse for tens of millions of people? Why would Dems want that?

They want to foment insurrection and chaos in order to have an excuse to impose even more draconian controls on free American citizens.

Sheesh, keep up, willya?

Besides, paranoid fantasies are downright fun. They give one's existence meaning and purpose. How boring these losers' lives would be without the spectre of slavering, mindless Democrats to fight.

I really think that's an important element in the teabagger movement. Bored, comfortable, unaccomplished people who are starting to see the end coming, or have an inkling that they've made too many mistakes in their lives, can now feel positively HEROIC when they go out there and scream and holler against creeping commynism. They're doing something important to defend their country, bigaud! What a boost to one's self-esteem.

That's easy: Progressives are evil and want to destroy this country and lock up (or elimiate) right-thinking Americans.

Some of my righty acquaintances actually believe that with all their hearts.

Steve writes:"What possible incentive could they (Democrats) have?"

I guess you haven't been watching enough Glen Beck: The Dems want nothing less that total control of our lives; the Socialist/Fascist/Nazi/Communist dream of pre-birth (abort the protorepublican foetus) to after death (part-out the euthenized Veterans)domination of the population.

Oh, and see Keith Olberman, re Zombies. . .

Good question. I think wingers are trying to make the tactics that were effective for them in the abortion policy debate to be effective in the health care policy debate. If you really think, e.g., that abortion is murder, you will never compromise, you are not open to argument. Wingers would be overjoyed if the same dynamic applied to health care.

Its silly to think that the illogic of the two basic republican stances on "entitlements" will ever be brought together in a matter/anti matter like collapse of stupid.

The Republicans say two things about entitlements: they buy voters and votes and cost more and more because no politician is willing to do anything to cut them back...

and

If everyone in the country is entitled to health care the government will suddenly start cutting bakc on that entitlement and killing off selected voters.

Both these things can not simultaneously be true. When you want to please the voter by bribing him, you tend to offer him better and better bribes to keep his favor. And when the voter has an interest in the goodies doled out by government, he has an interest in making sure he gets his cut.

Its obvious to people who can think logically that these two contentions: the democrats want to get expensive health care for everyone *and* they want to kill off their own voters/grandmas to do it are in contradiction.

But the reality is that republicans can count on their voters not thinking logically. This new twist in the story--that republican voters, or red state voters, or white voters will be denied health care is being implemented to stop people from grasping that universal health care reform will help everyone, universally.

aimai

Julia -- you have it exactly right, imho. The question is, how do we deal with that? I recently watched a documentary on David Icke (something like "Icke, the Jews and the Lizards" & the parallels between that situation and the current healthcare "debate" are kind of uncanny. Unfortunately, there's no solution there, either. The anti-Ickers end up just making him seem sympathetic and the "good guys" end up trying to throw pie in his face (literally). We're supposed to be the ones with the brains, and yet it's clear that reasoning with them won't work. Too bad pharma killed psychoanalysis: we could really use a good one right now to help us figure out how to deal with them.

Who says they want to be re-elected?
Since when do communistic negro-faschists hold elections?

"does that sound like something a politician who wants to be popular would support?"

Did you just fall off a turnip truck? What's the assumption? That Democrats have a basic sense of survival and wouldn't do something insanely stupid that would probably lead to an immediate takeover of Congress by the Republicans? Where's the evidence they have a brain?

What exactly are the Blue Dog Democrats in fact doing?

Do you or anybody think that a "health care bill" with NO public option AND mandates is going to be popular? Forcing everybody to buy garbage health insurance that they can't afford that won't do squat if you are seriously ill? A government funded $1 trillion insurance industry subsidy that will do nothing to contain costs and will leave us with ever more expensive health care?

That's going to be unbelievably UN-popular with the entire country!

And yet, what are the Blue Dog and virtually the entire rank of corporate Congressional sell out idiots doing?

They're trying to destroy any possible health care plan that could work and increase coverage while containing costs and provide decent affordable coverage to the middle class.

Aside from the progressive caucus in the House that is desperately holding out for a public option in the face of total hostility from the President, the Senate Democratic leadership, and their House colleagues there isn't ONE sign that anybody in the Democratic party GETS it.

1. If you pass NOTHING, the right wing will be enpowered to go on a total rampage for the next 3 years and Obama and the Democrats will be permanently neutered -- and probably lose Congress in 2010.

2. If you pass a piece of CRAP like the "health care co-ops" or other garbage it will NOT work and thus, will be instantly and permanently HATED by the American people. Result: Democrats are destroyed in 2010 and Obama has to fight for his life to stay in office in 2012.

3. Pass a health care bill with a strong public option. Result: Americans slowly realize they've been lied to by the right wing and the media. Grandma is NOT put out on an ice flow to die. Democrats keep control of Congress and Obama is re-elected.

Where's there any sign they understand this simple 4th grade logic?

I made almost exactly the same argument a few days ago at Angry Bear and have thought that this might be an appropriate time for an Obama teaching moment--you know a new president riding a honeymoon wave of popularity decides to take on the biggest challenge out there politically with full knowledge that powerful forces will attack him on it and that his poll numbers will fall.What is in it for him if he did not think it was for the good of the country? he wants to at least have the opportunity to be re-elected in 2012, he wants to have a successful presidency and he wants to be popular. So why do it if it was not important? he is not a dumb guy

Really, the 'Democrat' party ought to sue for slander.

A high bar, I admit, but has it ever been defined?

What would they actually have to say that would meet it?

DAY (@2:19), you forgot the mandatory sex changes, per Rachel Maddow.

;)

Wait! The plan is to offer health care for everyone except republicans? When can we start?

Steve, you're not factoring in right-wing psychology. To them, free-market capitalism is a sacred ideal -- it's something to strive toward with no logic necessary. They take it on faith that the ideal will be a good thing, once reached.

They then project that zeal to liberals, and assume that liberals have the same faith in totalitarian socialist systems. They think that liberals will work for decreased freedom and government control without regard to logic or sense. But the right-wingers then place themselves above their opponents by noting smugly that totalitarianism is wrong, even if the liberals can't see that.

'We are right; they are wrong' is only part of the right-wing creed. 'They are as crazy as we are' is their other basic assumption, one that people neglect. Of course, they're wrong on *both* counts.

Many good points made above. I would add that I believe that the remaining Republicans these days suffer, at least in a borderline way, from paranoid personality disorder. Here's a cite, and see if you agree with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder

Why would Dem's do that? Well it is easy. A few decades back someone, clearly with Hayek's consent, boiled down the Road to Serfdom to 18 cartoon panels. Per the cover of the printed version it appeared first in Look Magazine and then was reprinted as 118 of General Moters 'Thought Starter" series.

Parts of it are unintentionally funny (particularly panel 17 which implicitly equates golf and freedom) but all in all itperfectly summarizes wingnut fears.

And people shouldn't think of this as some novelty item, it is instead hosted on the mothership of Austrian libertarian whackadoodleness the Mises Institute. http://mises.org/books/TRTS/

BTW the final panel itself depicts a type of 'death panel' with a caption reading in part "If you are fired from your job, it's apt to be by firing squad"

Lastly when you get done reading all 18 panels (which takes like two minutes) you will understand why it makes sense to call someone both a Nazi and a Commie in defiance of 150 years of political history. It is clear as black and white. A black and white cartoon that is.

I don't know how you fight back against this mentality. Because it is not craziness as we know it, instead it is like their reality is just tilted 45 degrees from our own.

@Remus Shepherd: Real paranoiacs wouldn't trust Rush Limbaugh and all those others who really are trying to manipulate and mislead them.

There you go arguing with the furniture again!

I think they just took some REAL poll about health care and substituted the word "government" for "insurance companies."

Because the insurance companies are certainly doing all this right now.

Because it is not craziness as we know it, instead it is like their reality is just tilted 45 degrees from our own.

Their brains have no detail. There are no grey levels in their thinking.

As my wife just pointed out, they've now laid the groundwork for millions of undereducated Republicans to wake up the day after a reconciliation bill is signed and run out to re-register.

Which may *sound* like a windfall for Democrats, but will wrench the results of Democratic primaries so far to the right that all our heads will spin for the next decade.

Because liberals are at best stupid, though most likely evil. Their decisions are irrational and illogical, so there is no point in trying to figure out why they would want something like that. And, of course, their mission in life is to destroy good god-fearing 'merkans like us. So death panels et cetera makes perfect sense. Oh, and their leader is black.

"...It's in their interest to pass legislation that would benefit the country, and which voters would like..."
When your only concern about "benefiting the country" is how much pork you can drag back to your district and when your constituency in no way consists of the people who actually voted for you, that sentence sort of becomes irrelevant, doesn't it?