Bruce Bartlett noted this morning, "He's become the new Sarah Palin of the Republican Party, where one's popularity is in inverse proportion to one's stupidity -- the stupider a Republican is these days the more popular he or she becomes."

Speaking of stupidity, Bruce, when popularity and stupidity rise or fall together, that's direct proportionality. Inverse proportionality is when two things rise or fall in the opposite direction from each other.

Like Bruce Bartlett's use of complex concepts and his actual understanding of them - those are in inverse proportion.

There's a whole city in North Carolina named "Wilson", that is reportedly full of people of similar persuasion, whom Joe Wilson could represent after he loses his next election. Downside is that he'd have to move.

As usual there go DEMS focusing on the current "shiny object"...like our sad excuse for a media...get off Wilson and back on subject of this much needed REFORM! He's just another typical Repuglican buffoon...betting he was "in his cups"...

Repubican lawmakers may be denouncing Wilson publicly, but I'd bet they're praising him to the skies in private. Why? Because he single-handedly guaranteed that the substance of Obama's speech would not dominate the news today.

We will NOT be talking about what the President said. We will NOT be debating the merits of reform. Instead, we're going to waste a dozen news cycles on Joe Wilson. And what better outcome could the GOP ask for than that Obama's speech be instantly vanquished from the national news?

Wilson is a poster child for what the Rethuglicans have become. He owes the nation an apology for his repugnant behavior. I'm amazed that Pelosi didn't order his immediate removal from chambers by the sergeant at arms. We should accept nothing less than full censure of this moronic bastard.

Wilson has apologized and that should be the end of it, but liberals just can't let go.

IMHO no formal censure should be undertaken: Why help create another right wing martyr?

The outburst looked bad to the people who matter: The centrist Democrats, moderate Republicans and Independents who watched the speech last night or will hear about the outburst today.

The Wilsonians, Beckians, Palinites, Rushbots...the, few, the loud and the prevaricators: Represent only the cultish 22 percenters, that hard core wingnut base that never gave up on Bush, that hates all things DemocRat, Librul and Gubmint...they can be as loud as they want, it will only continue to hurt their cause. The other 10 to 15 percent who trend conservative, the McCainites, the Scarbouroughors, the Frummies, the Sullivanians...they don't like that kind of behavior and they will denounce it.

Good enough for me. Instapolling showed a shift among independents and centrists last night towards favoring the health care plan outlined by President Obama. Let's keep that crystal clear and pass this sucker.

Obviously planned. Just like all the "grassroot" activities.

Wilson can be useful as an easily recognizable summary of the opposition in general - one so boorish it reminds independents why they moved away from the Rs in 06 and 08. Or, Wilson can be a distraction - as in, on CNN.com this morning, Wilson is the lead story while the speech itself is one in the list of headlines.

Which way it goes depends on whether the WH and the Dems have a clue. If all the more planning they have done is one big speech, it will be a highlight but quickly lost. This cannot be a one-off. Obama and the Dems need to have in place ways to make a headline day after day -- key endorsements of his principles, announced defections from the R's, major follow-up speeches and coordination of messaging across many speakers and platforms, etc.

The past 9 months dont give me a lot of reason for hope, but they did show these abilities in the campaign, so there is always a chance. . .

As Al says "Wilson has apologized and that should be the end of it, but liberals just can't let go."

Right on Al...

When I apologize for calling you a stupid rethugnican troll, I will do so by saying you are still a stupid rethugnican troll but I am sorry I say it when and where I did.

While Wilson's behavior is indeed a distraction from substance, his childish outburst further reduced the Rethugs to petulant observers rather than participants in the process.

What, I wonder, would have happened if a Dennis Kucinich had called George Bush a liar while addressing a joint session of Congress. Bush lied whenever his mouth moved, but no one ever called him out in such a rude fashion.

And what better outcome could the GOP ask for than that Obama's speech be instantly vanquished from the national news?

I'm not so sure the speech will be "instantly vanquished". News I've watched this morning has spent more time on the substantive matters and treated Wilson as a side note. At least that's the case for now.

Yeah, now we'll have to call him "the bad Joe Wilson" to simultaneously avoid casting aspersions on the good one (frmr. Ambassador and husb. of Valerie Plame), while reminding everyone of that other "good Joe Wilson"! But BJW isn't nearly reptilian enough to shine the shoes of his fellow Party animal Michael Duvall, mind you!

Why are people paying attention to *this* Joe Wilson? What about the other one who was right about Iraq not buying uranium from Niger?

Oh, right, he was proving a republican wrong. That's why most of America ignored him.

*sigh*

But don't you kind of wish they had...

Wilson tweeted that he was going to do this on Tuesday. This was planned. His apology is as false as his outburst was last night. Denouncement is not good enough, he should be removed from office.

I agree with ajaye. Wilson doesn't need any more attention from the Democratic Party or liberal bloggers than this simple report. Censure will make him a martyr. The media will make him a "Maverick."

What needs to happen is that he lose his seat in the next election. This should be easy.

Don't be so hard on Wilson. He's ill, suffering from Terminal Rudeness, a highly contageous disease, and caught from the foaming at the mouth crazies at his town hall meetings. . .

When South Carolinans elected Joe Wilson, they elected just another common turd! -Kevo

My computer's first morning task...

Dear Congressperson,

I am writing to you about an issue that needs immediate addressing: Basic American Civility. Yes people can be passionate about their opinions. I am. And that is fine. But shouting down a woman in a wheelchair who has two auto-immune diseases and is calmly making a point at a town hall meeting?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/02/wheelchair-bound-woman-sh_n_275472.html"

This is boorish and brutish behavior. And it is happening more and more. Where will tolerance of this behavior lead to?

Last night one of your colleagues shouted out: "Your a Liar" at the President. This wasn't just a casual faux pas. This was the craziness of the town hall coming into the Halls of Congress.

Enough!

Send a message about Basic Civility 101 to all Americans. Please move to censure the offender.

Thankyou,
Citizen Paine

RE: Wilson has apologized and that should be the end of it, but liberals just can't let go.

As apologies go, they are generally accepted if the behavior changes. Republicans do themselves no favors by behaving the way they have since January. It is clear they have no interest in helping this country, they can apologize all they want, but I've seen absolutely no evidence that they are in any way interested in anything besides name-calling and obstruction. Congressman Wilson's outburst merely sums up what Republicans represent these days which is unfortunate for all of us.

koreyel: That quote in your third paragraph should be: "You're a liar". Not: "Your a liar".

Oh, was there a speech last night about health care? I was watching the US World Cup qualifier match with Trinidad & Tobago -- US 1 - T&T 0.

Just kidding, slightly.

The remote control clicking at a rapid pace. It is amazing how you can have Obama give a line, wait for applause, and then click to the game, then click back and not miss a line. I even caught Wilson's outburst. Great stuff -- all part of the game (the way the Republicans play it today). Though I think Obama beat Wilson by more than a couple of goals.

I tend to agree with ajaye's approach and with chrenson -- but I did also click on Democratic candidate Rob Miller's page on ActBlue and add my money to his warchest for beating Joe Wilson. To me, Wilson's behavior was of a piece with Chambliss calling on our president to show "humility" and the school speech dust-up -- treating this president as though he is somehow "less than" his predecessors -- and that is completely unacceptable.

It's outrageous to watch a conservative white man try to bully America's first African American President in front of Congress and the nation.

But even as he apologized for his stupid (racist?) outburst Rep. Wilson still maintained he disagreed with the President's claim that the Health Care Reform Bill wouldn't insure illegal immigrants.

A clause in the bill specifically prohibits insuring illegal immigrants. Wilson must know this so he could only have been lying for the cameras. What a stupid, ignorant bully. Unfortunately, after attending a Town Brawl meeting in August I think Wilson is fairly typical of today's Palin-fixated GOP.

Anyone else know, about claim bJW twittered before the speech, he was going to do something?

Wilson has apologized and that should be the end of it, but liberals just can't let go.

What did Van Jones say that was so bad, someone tell me again?

DROP TALKING ABOUT WILSON. Domage is absolutely correct that it was done to divert the discussion from health care reform. Look at the comments for Obama's speech: 0 Look at the comments for Wilson: 23

Attention Washington DC: Here come the teabaggers. Big meet up on the mall on September 12. Then, on Monday and Tuesday, the right wing talkers/birthers/deathers will be at a big mtg in DC...I think they will be broadcasting on the public airwaves, which they evidently own for reason which I do not understand.

Talking points; I am hearing on denver talk radio that the health care reform bill does provide for abortion funding, but they call it "pregnancy reversal." Also, that the bill allows funding for illegal immigrants...they are defined as "undocumented visitors."
My question: is anyone else hearing these bogus claims on right wing radio/TV

Here's how to take Wilson down a notch and possibly prevent others from thinking such outbursts are a good idea. The AP is reporting this news today: "In the eight hours since Wilson's outburst, his Democratic opponent, former-Marine Rob Miller, has received nearly 3,000 individual grassroots contributions raising approximately $100,000, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee said." I'm planning to chip in my $10.

Lovin' it. Obama's big task last night was to rally the Democrats-- and that's exactly what happened-- with a big assist from a certain Mr. Wilson.

I figured he was kicking off his campaign for governor.

The look on Nancy Pelosi's face was really something. She couldn't believe what she was hearing. Who could, except the rowdy, petulant sea of white boys on that side of the aisle?

When you only listen to townhall screamers and Glenn Beck, you forget that there are minimal behavioral expectations for members of Congress. These people looked so out of touch it wasn't funny, and they are elected representatives.

From the desk of Representative Joe Wilson (S.C.)...

First, I want to extend my apology (to all you fascist progressive jerks who misunderstood me) for the timing of my comments about The Chosen One's lying.

I will acknowledge that all of the bills passed out of committees do prohibit federal expenditures for those not legally in the U.S. However, as a republican, I know that what The Chosen One really meant was that he wants to give health care to illegals and take it away from real white working Americans and to kill my grandmother. Obviously, The Chosen One was lying and I really believe that we should call a spade a spade.

In retrospect, I will acknowledge that I should have followed the paths of my respected Republican Congressional Leadership (Kantor & Boehner) and sat there quietly using my cell phone to view internet porn.

I will just say this: He was only saying what they were all "thinking."

Dear Steve Benen:

A little editorial advice: stop using the word "minion." I have noticed recently that it is becoming a regular word used here. It is a word I associate with Michelle Malkin fans and Freepers.

You're a clever guy, I am confident you can come up with a better word. You have in the past, because this seems to be a recent tick.

Maybe you're spending too much time reading Free Republic?

P.S. Glad to hear reaction to the president's speech was good, but it doesn't change my opinion that this so-called reform is going to wind up as another no-strings-attached giveaway to America's profit-centers.

BTW there were (according to Drudge at least, who has to counter any good-Dem/bad-Rep news) some boos during Bush addresses, but that isn't as bad or personal as saying "you lie." GWB was likely fudging for real, anyway.

A planned outburst to dominate the news cycle for sure. It worked.

Shortstop - That was my visual as well, a bunch of white boys late or their Klan meeting. Wilson really wanted to yell nigger, you know he did.

Yeah, now we'll have to call him "the bad Joe Wilson..." -NeilB

I prefer Mean Joe Wilson. Makes him sound like a boxer from the fifties.

I agree with ajaye. Wilson doesn't need any more attention from the Democratic Party or liberal bloggers than this simple report. -chrenson

I disagree. Wilson's outburst was the catalyst that has galvanized the Democratic base. I think that breech of decorum was far more effective than the speech (which I think was good, don't get me wrong, I just don't think it moved the needle).

Wilson revealed the character of the GOP plainly last night for the world to see. He made the party look like the puerile pansies we know they are. Obama could not have done that. In private, Barack should tip his hat to Mean Joe Wilson.

In spite of the observable spring this has put into Democrats' steps this morning (save for the terminally sullen grinning cat), I have to think that in days gone by, before the advent of television, that decorum in the chamber was fleeting and the President was heckled by members of Congress regularly. Any history buffs know?

As Alinsky said, "The action is in the reaction."

Wasn't Washington heckled at his first State of the Union message? After which he sent a written copy of his address and never set foot in the chamber again?

Actually, that's in direct proportion not inverse.

Joesbrain - I did the same thing. I was nervous for the President - I knew it needed to be a good speech to get the momentum back - but I was doubly nervous that the US would choke against T&T. Releieved to see they pulled it off and are in good position to punch a ticket to South Africa. The National Team is a bit like the Democratic Pary in that they are often too timid when they should be pummeling inferior opposition.

Good for the US Nationals. Good for the President. Good for supporters of reform. Good for the American people and this great country. Good night all around!

before the advent of television, that decorum in the chamber was fleeting and the President was heckled by members of Congress regularly. Any history buffs know?

Yes, back in the day -- loooooong before television, though -- things got quite lively, occasionally even erupting into fisticuffs. However, it's perfectly fair to say that by modern standards, Wilson's breach was unforgivable.

I never thought I'd say this, but . . . good for Joe Scarborough.

Some good may come of Joe Wilson showing his ass to the nation: Wilson's opponent, Rob Miller, raised over $100,000.00 in donations overnight.

Wilson's official website is down "due to heavy traffic", but the email form is still functioning. You can post comments directly to Wilson here:

http://www.house.gov/formwilson/IMA/issue.htm

Joe Wilson is a politician from South Carolina - why is anyone surprised to discover he's a moron? Moron is mainstream in the heartland of Southern treason.

You write: "the Republican response to President Obama's health care speech was delivered after the address to a joint session by Rep. Charles Boustany (R) of Louisiana."

Don't you mean LORD DR. Rep. Charles Boustany (R)of Louisiana? Give the man his due, please.

I hope there is a motion to give Joe Wilson a medal for his honest comment to Obama last night. Obama's speech was the epitome of arrogance, insult, petulance, combativeness and was replete with lies about every point of the House Healthcare bill. Joe Wilson merely reflected what thinking Americans wish they had a chance to say to Obama's face. Obama is exactly what we knew he was and would be in the presidency. He is a Socialist through and through ("By your friends we shall know you"). He is in the process of ruining America as we know it and the sleeping giant has awakened !

What is it with politicians from S. Carolina? Sanford, DeMint, Wilson? At least they've got Clyburn, but then again, he's a Democrat.

From article this morning:
House Majority Whip James Clyburn, a South Carolina Democrat, said the remark was the latest in a long line of political attacks by Wilson.
“Joe Wilson took our state's reputation to a new low. I thought [Gov.] Mark Sanford had taken it as low as it could go, but this is beyond the pale," Clyburn said.
"Joe is very confrontational," he added. "He held his first town hall meeting three blocks from my house at my kid's high school. Now why would he have this town hall meeting in my congressional district, three blocks from my house in my kid's high school? It's not in his district.
That's the kind of guy Joe Wilson is. He loves confronting people. So he was confronting the president, just as he was confronting me."

Obama's speech was the epitome of arrogance, insult, petulance, combativeness and was replete with lies about every point of the House Healthcare bill

Name one. Don't just whine and smear, name a single lie. Let's examine it, compare it against the bill. Let's see how you do on the facts, not emotional screaming with unsubstantiated claims.

He is in the process of ruining America as we know it and the sleeping giant has awakened !

I think it's more appropriate to say that Obama is tackling a challenging issue and is being hindered by bigotry and prejudice and fear, while the giant asses are sleepwalking through their own little nightmares.

It must be really difficult for you having a black man be president of the United States.

Wilson has apologized and that should be the end of it, but liberals just can't let go.

His apology one ups the disgraceful behavior of Dick "Go fuck yourself" Cheney.

However, in his apology did Wilson admit that he was lying and not the president? Did discuss why his behavior set such a bad example and bad precedent in the halls of congress? Did he pledge never to repeat the offending behavior again?

Then, it is not an apology.

Mr. Hombre,

Your warped view of the world is not wanted here. We are celebrating a great speech and the dumb ass, childish and revealing reaction from one of your ilk who has disgraced himself, his party and the state of South Carolina. So go away!

Wilson tweeted that he was going to do this on Tuesday.

If this is true, Wilson should not be censured, he should be expelled--because it exposes the falsehood of his "apology".

Joe Wilson merely reflected what [Republican] Americans wish they had a chance to say to Obama's face.

Absolutely. "I'm dumber than dirt, I have no command of the facts, I lie without conscience, but I can screech loud, you uppity nigger!"

I can't believe the inappropriate and disrespectful behavior towards our president.

Joe Wilson from South Carolina, is just another good old boy where in the morning these married men preach to you that there should be prayer in our schools and in the evening they are on their cell phones setting up a date with their other women on the side, hypocrisy has been bred in. I am not surprised that he felt compel to yell like he was at some Friday night game. He is a hater not a debater like most of his side of the isle.

So it's ok for the president to call people names, liars and terrorists, to the very people who he represents? So what he was called a liar, which he is btw and that can be proven so go do your homework and tell me where Wilson was wrong. Anyways why don't you people focus on what is happening to this country, we are divided. I don't hate Obama but honestly I have no respect for him, he has yet to earn it...

Steve Benen misses the point:

What is worse, Lies, or the accusations of Lies?

The irony of this article is that I am sure this left leaning (as most are) journalist would have stated unequivocally that Bush lied about WMDs. In spite of the fact that the intel communities of most nations supported the Bush administration's hypothesis. What a hypocrite! Secondly, what Wilson was refering to is that there are several bills and amendments to the main health-care bill that are being discussed even now that absolutely will amend the main bill to allow coverage for illegal aliens and Wilson knows that Obama is cognizant of those bills. Therefore Obama is indeed a liar.

"…inverse proportion…" ???

Come on, dude. I agree with the column but if you're going to call someone stupid, you gotta know your words.

Wilson's opponent, Miller, is up to $400,000 now, which is nice.

Also, he apologized to Rahm Emanuel??? The guy who uses M*therf*cker as a comma, and kicks your ass as a friendly greeting? OMG, I would give a paycheck to hear a recording of that call!!!

Secondly, Wilson immediately apologized, on national TV, and called the president to apologize to him personally. He was refused communication with the president. Additionally, the Republican leadership came out against Wilson stating that this was inappropriate behavior. If this had been a Democrat:
1. There would have been no apology
2. The other Democrats would have supported him.
That's the difference between Democrats and Republicans.

Here's what the Congressional Research Service said on the subject “H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitizens – whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently – participating in the Exchange.”

Rep Wilson was childish and boorish and wrong on that count, but absolutely right on substance.

Liberals are sunk on the merits of the argument. When they can't even garner the support of their party, you know they are in trouble.

Maybe should Obama should starting LEADING rather than give speeches?

Perhaps this will help clarify Wilson's remarks.

Current federal law prevents a hospital from denying care to ANYONE, including illegal aliens. This was part of the "anti-dumping" EMTALA legislation.

This law will likely override the provision in the reform legislation barring inclusion of illegal immigrants.

What will happen is that illegals will continue to get care that will not be directly reimbursed. These costs will be born by the "system."

The Dems are technically correct that the bill does not include illegals while Wilson is technically correct this is exactly what will occur.

woo hoo, Steve! you're apparently at hotlink at the Minutemen HQ. look at that hit counter go!

Posted by: bigheelfan on September 10, 2009 at 4:30 PM -- "Current federal law prevents a hospital from denying care to ANYONE, including illegal aliens. This was part of the "anti-dumping" EMTALA legislation."

You DO know the difference between DENYING care, and PAYING for someones care, I hope?

You can't deny anyone care if you roll through ER. But that has nothing to do with who PAYS for it.

Dear Righty Trolls,

Pull your ignorant, un-American, hateful, hypocritical heads from your asses.

Thank You,
Giggs

We seem to be having an infestation of troll here. Eventually it will get tired.

Even without Wilson, I thought the Republicans in general looked like complete jackasses. Wilson just put the cherry on top, and provided a perfect epitome of Republican behavior since the election. I wouldn't actually mind having angrier debates in congress, but that just isn't the way it is done here anymore.

The real reason President Obama chose a Joint Session of Congress for his address was to give the American people a close look at his opposition. House Minority Leader, "Boner", looked like he had downed six martinis before slouching into his seat with his mouth open. Meanwhile, the slimy scumbag, Cantor, played with his blackberry throughout the entire speech. Finally, central casting rolled out the perfect KKK lynch mob Grand Wizard- a pig eyed, red faced, hate mongoring bigot named Joe Wilson. You simply could not make this stuff up. There you go America; your Republican "leadership" at it's finest.

If, the morning after President Obama's most important speech, the Democrats are trying to rally around a jeer, and not around the substance of the speech, then they are in big trouble.

In the end all he did was sum up the national distaste for what is happening in Washington with the ecomony in general and healthcare in particular.

Yes, Bush and the Republicans did spend eight years fucking up the economy pretty spectacularly, didn't they? They had themselves a deregulation party, skyrocketed deficits by giving tax cuts to the rich, and lined their pockets with money from no-bid defense contracts that fleeced we the taxpayers.

And where the fuck were you, Kevin? Cheering it all on, no doubt. Happy as a clam when the housing market began crashing in 2005, laughing it up as job were siphoned overseas, giggling like a school girl at your hero Bush when the recession began in 2007.

Yes, Obama inherited the worst economy since the Great Depression from the likes of you fucks. Thankfully, the stimulus is slowly reversing the damage you wreaked with your drooling, partisan fucktardedness. Now since your health care premium is going to DOUBLE in the next ten years -- that is, if you're not dropped by your insurer the moment you need care or go bankrupt from a medical emergency -- Obama is trying to do something about it.

As far as I'm concerned they can pass a bill of attainder and keep you and your fellow mouth-breathers exempt from any government benefits. And when you die of a heart attack from a lifetime of cheeseburgers and cheetos at age 45 don't expect any of us to shed a tear.

First of all, there was never an effort to have an honest debate; Obama flew around the country pitching vague, general ideas and demanded everyone jump on board with "reform," broadly defined...but people wanted specifics.

WTF are you talking about? The text of all the bills under consideration are available online. Every single line is there for you to read in House Bill HR 3200. Is this your first trip to the internet, Adam? Would you like some instruction on the use of google? You and everyone else in the country can examine what's in these bills.

As is the promise you can keep your own plan, since you may, in fact, lose your plan depending on what regulation the bill may enact.

False. The bill specifies that you are grandfathered under your plan until you naturally lose it by changing jobs. But why you'd want to keep it I don't know, since the policies in the exchange will have superior minimum requirements for coverage, and the grandfathering is just a bone thrown to the insurance companies.

It's fascinating to listen to unserious people with no grasp on the readily available details lecture us on how unserious Obama is. Irony, thy name is wingnut.

Honest? "We can give you this new entitlement, and it won't cost you anything...in fact, it'll SAVE money." Umm, no one's buying it

Then you're pretty dim, because every western country in the world pays FAR less than the U.S. in health care through the mechanisms of reduced administration costs, better bargaining power, larger risk pools, and tighter regulation. The country that comes closest to us is Sweden, and they only spend 65% of what we do per capita.

Crack a book sometime, preferably before opining on a subject you know nothing about.

Why is it that it is OK for Obama to say his opponents "lie" (twice), but one minute later it is not OK for Wilson to call Obama a liar (on a clear lie by Obama)?

First, because he was in the middle of a State of the Union speech and there are rules of decorum. Wilson can and does and is welcome to call Obama a liar any other time he wants to. In this country, we don't shout down our Presidents in the middle of a speech -- unless we're wingnuts. Speaking of, that does seem to be the new modus operandi of the wingnuts: to shout down someone who's saying something thehy don't want to hear.

And secondly, the death panel nonsense was lies; even members of the Republican leadership admitted they were, and it's Obama's job to convey that to a abjectly uninformed populace.

You'll recall that Cindy Sheehan was arrested and removed from the Capitol at a State of the Union because her tee shirt noted the number of dead in Iraq, and that was considered too disrespectful to Bush. Arrested.

Wilson just ended up looking like another angry Republican clown.

Then again, when are Republicans NOT angry?

www.partisansnipe.com

South Carolina has a long list of dignitaries that includes Lauren Caitlin Upton (Miss Teen USA 2007 pageant contestant), Governor (and avid Appalachian hiker), Mark Sanford and now Joe “the hater not a debater” Wilson or the “screamer not the dreamer” as others have dubbed him. I did enjoy him cut and running through his apology, which only goes to show that he stands for nothing. So long Joey, you too will be seeing the unemployment lines.

demonizing anyone who would dare take a different position as dimwitted and uninformed.

No, you made the claim that no one knew what was being suggested for reform. That's bullshit, and I called you on it. It has nothing to do with demonization.

So, given that the legislation is in draft phase, NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE

Yes, in case you missed that episode of Schoolhouse Rock where the sad little bill sits on the steps of the Capitol awaiting his fate, that's how the process works with every bill, ever. The bill is in draft form: the legislators read it, argue over it. You read it, talk to your representatives about what you like and don't like. They eventually hammer out a final form but even then last minute amendments are often thrown in just before the vote.

Exactly what information was kept from you that possibly be given to you???

and Obama therefore cannot promise specifics like a) you can keep your own plan or b) cost savings will compensate for and prevent deficit spending. Such promises are simply speculative at best, disingenuous at worst.

Well then, Adam, no one can ever discuss any bill because all bills are products of committee and negotiation between two houses and two parties. What Obama CAN do, however, is veto a bill that doesn't end up with the items in it that he wants, or simply pressure his party not to accept something he finds unacceptable.

he U.S. system functions differently, so you can't pretend as if we'll have a pain-free transition to a new system.

Functions differently than what? In any system when you streamline costs and modernize record-keeping costs go down. It's not something magical that just happens in Europe.

And for your information, the Netherlands has an exchange of private insurers tightly regulated by the government -- oddly, just what is being proposed in the House bill. No one can be refused treatment or dropped from it, insurance isn't tied to one's job, you can change your insurer once every year, the government kicks in a small subsidy, and the only socialized care if for the elderly and handicapped. It was recently rated highest overall in Europe in patient satisfaction and health outcomes, and significantly less money is per capita is spent to maintain it than we spend.

Obviously, this will cost something. You can pretend as if it won't, if you choose...

Because costs and premiums are spiraling out of control, in the long run any meaningful reform will cost less.

You're not nearly as smart (or informed) as you think you are.

I don't think I'm that smart, but I'm clearly the more informed of the two of us.

Joe Wilson was right. The Constitution will not allow a specific group tobe eliminated if the government offers a program for all other groups. You would think that a former law professor like Obama would know that. Maybe he does no it and lied anyway.

Joe Wilson was right. The Constitution will not allow a specific group tobe eliminated if the government offers a program for all other groups. You would think that a former law professor like Obama would know that. Maybe he does no it and lied anyway.

Uh, no. The Constitution only applies to citizens. Were all the wingnuts asleep during Government class in high school???

Also, numerous bills have been enacted with provisions that specifically deny benefits to illegal aliens.

I assume you made the same comments about Harry Read in 2005 when he interrupted President Bush during the SOTU address, calling him "a loser" and "a lier".

Nope, never happened. Reid said these things about Bush, but not during a speech, and he apologized for the "loser" comment.

Next.