Remember when we used to joke about Eastern European countries where the police could walk up to any citizen at any time and demand "Let me see your papers!"

Well, the United States is well on its way to being exactly like that. This will add yet one more arena where you must prove citizenship by presenting your papers on demand before you can be allowed to participate.

But then, we're all about teh freedom, aren't we?

If they're here illegally they need to go home. If things are terrible in their home countries they need to change it themselves.

i think the right wingers would be okay with death panels for illegal immigrants -- and probably okay with death camps fer 'em.

Illegal aliens are everywhere. We can't give them an inch or they'll take over everything.

Well, on the one hand, there probably is a tactical advantage to making it exquisitely clear that Wilson himself was the liar. Theoretically, this is accomplished by supersizing the illegal immigrant health care prohibition. On the other hand, not only is this decision inhumane, it's also stupid economically: Where will illegal immigrants get their health care now? From emergency rooms. And who will pay for it? Legal immigrants (and Native Americans).

Is the White House brain dead?! Don't let the immigrants buy insurance. That way, if they get sick and need health care, they will go to the emergency room, and the taxpayer will end up getting the bill!

Their insurance company bosses will not like this. They aren't the least bit interested in enforcing immigration laws and they want the business.

This will be walked back quickly if the insurance exchange is actually ever put into place.

Just to whom is the Administration pandering. They aren't going to convert the Republican base no matter what. They should do the right thing (let the illegals buy their own insurance so the rest of us don't have to pay) and be done with it.

I think the Administration's repeated over reactions to the right hurt far more than they help.

The whole illegal immigrant healthcare discussion is completely pointless. Illegal immigrants work in cash economies and have no reason to obtain insurance. Their insurance is praying that they won't get sick and use emergency rooms as healthcare of last resort. So the provision does no actual harm to anyone and takes away a crazy conspiracy theory talking point from Joe Wilson & Co.

I knew that the Obama Administration's negotiation strategy was based on preemptive capitulation, but now that are capitulating to hard radical right junior congressmen from South Carolina who commit the worst violation of the rules of decorum of Congress since the Civil War?

Cranky

The whole illegal immigrant healthcare discussion is completely pointless. Illegal immigrants work in cash economies and have no reason to obtain insurance. Their insurance is praying that they won't get sick and use emergency rooms as healthcare of last resort. So the provision does no actual harm to anyone and takes away a crazy conspiracy theory talking point from Joe Wilson & Co.

I really don't think immigration rights activists are going to have a conniption about the administration position on this. Illegal aliens were barred from participating in the public option so why would there be a problem in participating the exchange. Keep your eyes on the prize.

These immigrants are people, and should be treated as such; if not for humanitarian reasons, then ones of public health.
This stupid uproar ignores one simple basic point: We are in contact with a wide variety of people every day. If they themselves are legal, they may be bumped into someone illegal at the 7-11 who was buying a cold soda on a hot day.
Repbulican's, you can try to tell your body to ignore germs and viruses from illegals, but I doubt it would work.
It would best serve our interest's if EVERYONE that we come in contact with was as healthy as possible. Yes, even your Nanny and the yardworkers from the landscaping company.
Why is this hard do understand?

I just don't get Democratic administrations sometimes. Why is it that Clinton (Bill), Senator and Candidate Clinton (Hillary) and now Barack Obama all feel they have to pander to white southerners and northern/western working class conservatives on the ugliest of issues.

Along the morality spectrum, what's worse: sneaking into a country illegally yet behaving legally once here (the vast majority of immigrants) or developing a business model based on denying health coverage or certain procedures to the those sick and/or in chronic pain.

I just don't get it. Take the high road and then use the bully pulpit to demagogue the issue a bit. Shame those who are still capable of shame into changing their positions with a superior argument and forget the rest.

Bob

Obama obviously needs to promise that, under his health care reform plan, everyone in America who speaks Spanish will be rounded up and tortured. That would win at least fifty Republican votes in the House and at least six or seven in the Senate.

what is terribly disheartening and discouraging is the lack of desire or ability of the Obama administration to play politics with the crazed republicans.

By coming out against the perfectly humane and reasonable position that any one and every one capable of buying health care insurance should be able to, Obama only encourages the thug republicans to be more outrageous and unreasonable. He constantly undermines his own professed desire to find and work with "reasonable" republicans (as if such a thing stilled existed). He is encouraging just the opposite by giving the crazies what they want.

Even apart from the moral dimension, isn't it true that undocumented immigrants tends to be fairly young and relatively healthy? If they buy into the exchange, they will most likely help subsidize insurance for those in higher risk groups. Instead, political BS will preserve the current system of costly and incredibly inefficient emergency care.

As an Emergency Physician, I really wish people would look at this from a "rubber-meets-road" point of view. Anyone who presents to the ER HAS to be seen, by federal law (with multimillion dollar fines), regardless of race, color, creed, or immigration status, regardless of how serious or trivial their problem is. I would much rather see a funding mechanism for the seriously ill, tied to verification of immigration status and INS referral when they are stabilized. Otherwise, we will continue to see prices inflated because everyone else will be paying for their uncompensated care, just as we are paying for the care of uninsured citizens now. If you concede it has to be paid for somehow, you may get some input into how its paid for.

How many "illegal aliens" would have bought health insurance? If they don't have a SS number, pay FICA taxes, and have tax returns, they won't be able to get reduced rates anyway. And since the reason they are here is because people want less-than-minimum-wage black market labor, how many could afford insurance? This whole issue is just nonsense. Or maybe the real concern is that their employers would be forced to pay into a government insurance plan.

If conservatives are up in arms about the possibility of illegal immigrants getting free health care, they need to take it up with someone other than President Obama and the current Dem Congress. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, passed in 1986, "requires hospitals and ambulance services to provide care to anyone needing emergency treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay." Hmm, who was President in 1986 again?...

Let's face it. This administration is never going to be known for Profiles in Courage. But I don't necessarily disagree with the optics on this politically.

Obama doesn't want any tangential distractions right now, so he's not going to take any sort of principled stand that is going to delay progress on the bills.

At some point, the language will be massaged that will allow illegals to purchase insurance at face value, but now is not the time to debate that issue.

I'm sorry but I have no problem with keeping illegal immigrants out of the exchange, which requires insurers to insure everyone regardless of age/pre-existing conditions. However, there is no bar to insurance companies selling policies to immigrants OUTSIDE of the exchange.

What proof of citizenship will be used? An original copy of your birth certificate presented directly by state officials in a press conference? Well, the wingnuts don't accept that. Social security number? Well, we don't have a national database that can verify them -- ask employers who are trying to screen out illegal immigrants how that works. Maybe the federal government will be issuing Citizenship Identity Papers, like internal passports? Well, someone will figure out how to forge them.

Wait! I know! We'll tattoo a Citizenship Identification Number on each true citizen! Even better: Each true citizen has an embedded microchp that contains all personal data, including medical history. And each health care provider has a handheld device that reads it.

It is the kind of thing some Christian fundamentalists believe the Bible says the anti-Christ is going to do right before the end of days anyway. Which only leaves the question: Which is the anti-Christ -- the Republicans in the legislative branch who are demanding proof of citizenship or the Democrats in the executive branch who are going to run the proof of citizenship program?

I'm not a wingnut, nor a Christian fundamentalist. But I'm also not joking about what some of them believe.

If they're here illegally they need to go home. If things are terrible in their home countries they need to change it themselves.
Posted by: par4 on September 12, 2009 at 8:10 AM

If they're here illegally, they need to be sent home by the corporations who illegally hire them in order to avoid paying the higher costs associated with American workers. You know, like health insurance, taxes, minimum wage or better salaries, safe working conditions, etc. Aren't conservatives in favor of reducing corporate taxes? You'd think they'd love to have businesses be able to hire nothing but undocumented workers.

I agree with those that say that illegal immigrants aren't going to buy health insurance. My perception is that state provided identification is a bedrock of the medical industry. No insurance company is going to sell insurance to an illegal immigrant when there is no way of proving/disproving that is the person receiving medical treatment under the insurance. Otherwise, one illegal immigrant could buy insurance that all of his/her friends and family can use under his/her name. Though it would be nice if someone with actual expertise in the field would contribute on this topic.

> Let's face it. This administration is never
> going to be known for Profiles in Courage.
> But I don't necessarily disagree with the
> optics on this politically.
>
> Obama doesn't want any tangential distractions
> right now, so he's not going to take any sort of
> principled stand that is going to delay progress
> on the bills.

The problem with this is that the Radical Right is insatiable - as indeed negotiation theory tells them they should be. As soon as Democrats capitulate on one small item (say, updating the language to reinforce that there are no "death panels") then the hard right raises another hue and cry over a slightly larger item. If Democrats "compromise" on that slightly larger item, the hard right radicals raise ANOTHER hue and cry over a medium-sized item. And so on and so on. Obama, Bacaus, and Reid have shown absolutely no willingness to say no to the hard right on anything - which means that the hard right will eventually get everything.

Cranky

There are real issues that Democrats should address. The first is the problem of identifying non-citizens. How can that be done without compromising the civil rights of all citizens? I do not have any answers, but it is a real and growing problem. Here in the Southwest, there are many US citizens whose families have been on these lands for centuries. In language, culture and appearance, they may be indistinguishable from illegal aliens, of whom there are thousands in our state.

There are legal prohibitions against requiring proof of citizenship in various situations, such as ER rooms and public schools. Children born in the US of illegal aliens are US citizens and entitled to Medicaid, if they meet the means test. Their "caretakers" may also be eligible for Medicaid based on the relationship.

What Wilson did, of course, was the Wellstone Moment. As I say,
The Republicans exploited scattering booing at the Wellstone Memorial to elect Coleman, take over the Senate and bring us the Iraq War. I will go to my grave believing that the "boos" came from plants and the strategy to exploit them was in place before members of that tragic and noble family were in their graves.

Domage at 8:08 how incredibly naive can you be. We already have all sorts of "papers". Drivers license, ss card, insurance papers, state IDs, etc.

Not allowing illegal immigrants to buy health insurance is basically a "cut off your nose to spite your face" strategy a a couple of levels.

First, it will mostly inconvenience (perhaps fatally) legal immigrants and anyone who looks "suspicious". Second, it violates a basic premise of real health insurance (as opposed to what the US has today) - you want as many paying customers as possible - that spreads the risk and the costs wider.

Attempting to prevent illegal immigrants from getting subsidized care is a reasonable idea. Attempting to prevent (mostly young and healthy) people from BUYING into the system is just stupid.

It seems Democrats from Obama on down have a perverse need to be liked by idiots. Take a lesson from Bart Simpson and write on the board 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times "I WILL NOT ENABLE IDIOTS!"

Okay, here's the deal. Currently,it is estimated that 59% of illegal aliens do not have health insurance. This means that 41% are estimated to have health insurance.

I wonder how many of the 41% with insurance have purchased it themselves. My guess is not many. Most will have it through their employers. So my guess is that their won't be much demand from illegals in these exchanges.

I have been -- as anyone knows wsho plows through my long posts -- a consistent Obama supporter. I watched a truly brilliant campaign, understood some of his caution on some matters since he's been elected, and have repeatedly argued that he's been trapped by the necessity of placating the Blue Dogs, that he knew he didn't need to pay attention to the crazies by themselves.

This week has changed that. Presuident Obama, I still support you, out of necessity. I want to again be proud I voted FOR you and not jusy AGAINST the Republicans. But I've lost a lot of confidence you have to win back.

It isn't just the 'Wilson Walkback" as saddening as it was, or the ducking on the absurd ravings about 'Death Panels' and the 'Death Book,' as incomprehensible as those were.

But today, apparently the Census Bureau has announced it will bar ACORN from taking part in the 2010 Census as well. Stephen Suh at COGITAMUS put it better than I can:

"You know, it's rather embarrassing to belong to a nation which proves itself to be the most susceptible of any to terrorist threats and actions.

We all know that this nation's response to the attacks on 9/11 was to curtail our own freedoms and take action in the Middle East that did more for Al Qaeda than 100 fallen skyscrapers.

But it's not just the big stuff, and terrorism isn't just people with brown skin blowing things up. The Republican party's strategy for quite some time now has been to wage a terrorist campaign against the rest of us - threatening Americans constantly with everything from the promise of attacks on American soil if they aren't reelected to disrupting our government's ability to function merely out of pique.

And people are still giving in.

..."Whatever happened to "we don't negotiate with terrorists?"

As I said on an earlier thread: Let's bar "illegal aliens" (i hate that term; they are not illegal, they are undocumented)from purchasing "anything" in this country. Food, water, clothing, shelter, healthcare, auto insurance. ANYTHING! Let them starve to death until they go "home". We could also refuse to purchase anything from their home countries until they adopt the American System of Democracy and Human Rights. Imprison & fine any employer who hires, whether with knowledge or not, anyone who is not documented. I like an earlier suggestion: require the "illegal" employer to pay for the deportation of any of his/her employees and their families, and require them to insure that they will not return.

Radical? You Betcha! "You Lie!" Well, Joe "You Lie" Wilson, what is your solution?

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john

Who still peddles the "anchor baby" bullshit. Read up on Myrna Dick who lived in the US from the time she was 2 - long before SHE had any say in the matter - and was deported in 2006 after it was discovered she had inadvertently checked the wrong box as she crossed the border in 1998 after a visit to see family in Mexico. She got swept up in post-9/11 hysteria. Don't tell anyone in KC that "calving" in an American hospital is a way to beat the system and stay here. We know better.

Attempting to prevent illegal immigrants from getting subsidized care is a reasonable idea. Attempting to prevent (mostly young and healthy) people from BUYING into the system is just stupid.

Only if you see health insurance as a necessity. For the people whining about this, they see health insurance as a luxury good that should be reserved only for the deserving.

Radical? You Betcha! "You Lie!" Well, Joe "You Lie" Wilson, what is your solution?

I have a much better and much simpler solution:

If a company is found to have illegal workers on its staff, the owner or CEO of the company goes to jail for one year. If a household hires an illegal nanny or housekeeper, the head of the household goes to jail for one year. No exceptions.

If we did that, there would be no illegal workers left in the US within a year. Of course, it's never going to happen, because we don't actually want illegal workers to leave. We just want them to stay scared enough that they don't complain about how they're treated for fear of being deported.

The Democrats had a chance to make some political hay here and they blew it. They could have said they want to force illegals to pay for their own health insurance, but Republicans are insisting that the taxpayers foot the bill for emergency room care instead.

To forbid illegal immigrants from purchasing health care with their own money is not only bad progressive politics, it runs counter to the much talked about notion of cutting costs: Just like now, an illegal immigrant who shows up critically ill or wounded in some ER would still be treated at taxpayers' expense. Period. Would it then not be better economically and from the point of view of cutting health care costs, if such immigrants, who are already here illegally anyway, had the ability to pay for their own care? If illegal immigrants are persona non grata in the US, they should be expelled from the country. To fail to adequately enforce legal immigration and then to bar undocumented aliens from taking charge of their welfare and health care is both cruel and stupid...Almost un-American.

"They could have said they want to force illegals to pay for their own health insurance, but Republicans are insisting that the taxpayers foot the bill for emergency room care instead."

I love the way your mind works.

What's bugging me lately is that these"anchor" babies who are US Citizens are required by law to purchase insurance...at the same time their parents are forbidden to access those subsidies.

So are we gonna force those parents to get powers of attorney and apply for their offspring's benefits? That should go over well.

Remember when you had to be an actual citizen of the US in order to receive all the benefits thereof? Apparently, for some of you, that's no longer a requirement. I'm in favor of some reasonably generous immigration rules for those who want to come to this country and apply for citizenship. However, if they're here illegally, they need to be deported - end of story - and this discussion becomes a moot point. Having said that, this whole discussion about what rules the government can/should mandate is inane. No business entity should have to check an individual's resident status before selling them a product. If the govenment got OUT of the business of mandating nearly every aspect of the health industry and then let everyone participate in a true marketplace (including illegal aliens - the technically correct term), all of our insurance costs would go down and choice would improve. The ER care will continue to be an cost issue but at least everyone could find a low-cost plan that would cover catastophic care. Most of the posts are pro or con what rules should apply but once you've bought into the idea that government should direct the industry, this type of slippery slope is unavoidable. Up next, abortion funding.

post by mike s @ 3:50 PM.
"...an actual citizen of the US to receive all the benefits."
Health care is only for US citizens? It's a benefit of being a US citizen? I'm sure the health insurance companies would differ with you on that.
"No business entity should have to check out an individual's resident status..."
No argument there from us Democrats/liberals/progressives; might want to check with the Republicans, though, they seem to be the ones worried about "tainted" money.
"...let everyone participate in a true marketplace..."
Like the stock market? Hedge funds? CDOs? Health care insurance?
"Up next, abortion funding."
As long as it isn't mandatory, I'm fine with that.
Can you hear that? It's the water draining out of Grover's bathtub.

"Preventing people who are already here from buying their own insurance..."

As a Canadian, I have difficulties with your criticism. You can't very well want governmental regulation and be against it at the same time. That is like being a socialist libertarian, which is a laughable concept. It is obvious from a regulatory point of view that illegal immigrants should not be able to buy health insurance: they don't fall within any regulatory definition, so the government is right to put pressure on the illegals by various prohibitions.

Sorry, but the common good trumps private privileges in regulatory frameworks. I like this approach myself, but I respect Americans who feel threatened by it, and I do think you should face the issue directly.

"...let everyone participate in a true marketplace..."
Like the stock market? Hedge funds? CDOs? Health care insurance?

Unless you're younger than 40 or so, you've never lived during a time when government mandates have not driven up the cost of health insurance premiums. No Canada, we're not confused. Many of us would like to see the government out of the health business altogether based on past performance of ineptitude managing the two existing government health entitlement programs. I agree wholeheartedly that the issue needs to be addressed directly. If someone likes government intervention, then it makes sense to advocate a single-payer system with all of the benefits and problems - and the cost - that comes with it. If not, then why not try something toward the other end of the spectrum. Neither side is being honest about what they really want and it seems like the compromise might incorporate the worst of both possible worlds...

Okay -- view from the middle.

First, you are correct. How can you FORBID someone the ability to buy health insurance.
That is ridiculous and asinine.

Second, the thing that concerns people like Joe Wilson is that once immigration reform is dealt with, many of those aliens become legal and BOOM ... 12-20 million MORE people ARE covered by the health care reform ( adding BTW about 250-400 Billion to the costs possibly turning it into a $1.5 trillion bill despite promises ).

Third, stop calling them undocumented workers. They are here because the broke the law, that is illegal. If you don't like the law change it. If you feel it is a bad law so it can be ignored, then ANY law liberals pass should be able to be ignored by people who don't like it.
If you believe that immigration is a basic human right, then you need to press Mexico for being WORSE than the U.S.
In Mexico, the punishment for being an "undocumented worker" is up to 10 years in jail, ineligibility to file a complaint against police, and much worse.
Frankly, if we treated our illegal aliens like Mexico does, I would expect us to be charged with crimes against humanity.
They are very harsh.

Oh and don't give me that they are just coming back to territory we stole from them.
I am part Arapajo.
The reason the Americans were asked into Texas was to "pacify" the natives ( The Arapajo ).
Why should the clock stop at 1840?
Why not go back to 1776 when we owned Texas?
Prior to that every time the Aztecs came across the Rio Grande, we kicked their sorry a$$es back. As did the Apache and even the Pacifistic Navajo and Hopi.
They needed the guns and fighting skills of the Spanish to get across and take the land.
Spanish -- you know -- WHITE MAN!

I guess that good ol' fundamentalist charity doesn't extend to furriners, even if they have the individual initiative and pluck to leave their home to earn a few dollars to keep their family from starving.

Racism and xenophobia are bred into some at their father's knee. Racists left the Democratic Party when they could no longer dominate a segregated culture. They moved to the Republican Party in an attempt to reinstate white superiority. Hatred of dark skinned foreigners is also part of their pathology.

Millions of responsible immigrants but their own health insurance coverage an it appears that the range of commercial options is increasing just as government plans are pulling back. See "Finding Health Insurance for US Immigrants" at http://www.freedombenefits.net/affordable-health-insurance-articles/Health-insurance-for-US-immigrants.html. Let's not stereotype.

"Chromehawk," you are not quite correct.

"Third, stop calling them undocumented workers. They are here because the broke the law, that is illegal. If you don't like the law change it. If you feel it is a bad law so it can be ignored, then ANY law liberals pass should be able to be ignored by people who don't like it."

The fact that you automatically assume this is all about Mexicans sort of betrays where your bias resides. Only 37% of undocumented come from Mexico. Furthermore, most cases of people here "illegally" as I know you prefer to say is due to overstaying visas, not in crossing a border, in which case it is not even a misdemeanor crime, but a civil violation. The situation does not improve or become clearer (apparently) by using harsher language or names for the undocumented, nor in urging others to.

Finally, the fact that you floridly and enthusiastically leap into capital letters upon reaching your dull conclusion of "WHITE MAN!" really sort of says everything, including how much of your heart, if not blood, is indigenous after all....

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