IMO one of the best achievements of the netroots last election cycle was essentially forcing the Dem party and some of its caucus' to abandon using Fox for debates.

Besides, Glenn Beck might poison his coffee.

The White House would be wise to ignore Poniewozik's advice. Fox News isn't even a news network -- it's a propaganda outlet that just finished promoting a right-wing march on Washington. The network exists as an appendage of the Republican Party. For the president to reward the network with "regular" interviews makes about as much sense as chatting with Limbaugh or the Weekly Standard, and expecting quality journalism with professional standards.

Word. Just wanted to get that down again.

Obama should do another Sunday blitz that does include FOX News... plus Spike TV, Cartoon Network, Disney Channel, and SyFy.

Obama should do a special on Faux. They can call it Dancing with the Fuckwits.

Or indeed any journalism with any standards

The network exists as an appendage of the Republican Party.

Are you sure it isn't the other way around?

The perception may be that Fox is a nest of Obama-haters whose audience is monolithically opposed to him,...

and in this case perception is 100% reality.

Burro wins this post

Does anyone know if any other 'developed' or 'western' democracy, or for that matter any other country of any characterization -- not just the standard white jesus mercator types-- have a phenomenon equivalent to FOX?

I am not talking about a Murdoch dominated press like the sleazy London tabloids, but rather a far right wing propaganda machine that is so technologically extensive...

This entity is obviously the most powerful force, along with Hate Radio, to march the united snakes towards fascism. Is it a unique phenomenon?

low-tech cyclist,

I agree that its other way around: Republicans now follow whatever the looney heads want them to do/say. They just want to cling on to whoever follows the Faux.

Wouldn't frequent Obama appearances on FNC hurt their ratings and their reputation with the Right base?

Hmmm...

It's true, the Republican party is an appendage of FOX. Sad.

Steve, I have to say that I think Poniewozik is right and you're wrong. The President is trying to say that this bill will help all Americans, then he should be reaching out to all Americans, even Fox viewers. If nothing else it would allow him to inject a little truth into the debate over there. More than that though, it shows that he's serious about this plan and not afraid to debate its merits with people who aren't likely to agree. Worst case scenario, he doesn't convince any of Fox's viewers. But how likely is that? He jumped in the poll after his address to the nation simply because people that were believing the lies about health care got to see him say "There are no death panels". He wouldn't convince everyone but I seriously doubt he would lose any ground.

Further, I think that a showing on Fox would be something of a Sunshine Policy. If he shows up on Fox and once again demonstrates himself to be the smart, reasonable, level headed guy that he is, it makes it that much harder to demonize him as a wild eyed radical bent on destroying the US. He is his own best weapon in fighting the crazy right wingers campaign to paint him as a Muslim Hitler and Stalin rolled into one.

Retronym

New name to differentiate the original form from a more recent form.
The original is most often augmented with an adjective: acoustic guitar.

Hate TV

A retronym differentiating itself from "hate radio."

Feel free to use the coinage whenever you discuss Murdoch's Fox News.

He is his own best weapon in fighting the crazy right wingers campaign to paint him as a Muslim Hitler and Stalin rolled into one.

Chris beat me to it. I'd only add that there are two types of Fox viewers: (1) concerned, but misled, decent people; and (2) racists/hateful people. The latter will never stop frothing at the mouth, but the former are suffering from being inside an echo chamber of fearmongering that--left unchecked--really can make good people come to bad conclusions.

If any democrat can make a Fox "reporter" look foolish and speak directly to the goop people who somehow ended up watching Fox News, it's Obama.

*good people. Not sure what "goop people" are.

Chris I disagree entirely. It is time to give up on trying to "convince" those who have been propagandized and will not be convinced. Fox News is not a news channel, it is a way of life - a belief system.

eadie, the problem is that at heart, they are not necessarily good people. Don't get me wrong - I happen to be related a few of them. I love them as the family they are, but realize that they have hearts full of hatred - hatred of liberals, hatred of blacks and Hispanics, hatred of anyone who suggests that the problems afflicting this country were caused by their own conservative political philosophy. The seeds of hatred always existed; Fox has watered them and now provides the target - chief among them, the President.

Further, I think that a showing on Fox would be something of a Sunshine Policy. If he shows up on Fox and once again demonstrates himself to be the smart, reasonable, level headed guy that he is, it makes it that much harder to demonize him as a wild eyed radical bent on destroying the US.

But your typical Fox viewer is already convinced that this is just an act in order to trick white people into supporting him. The president was smart, reasonable, and level-headed when speaking to Congress and they still think it was prudent for a member of Congress to heckle him.

This is the general problem with appearing on Fox. You aren't convincing anybody, and at the same time you are legitimizing the network by making it appear that Democrats accept it as an impartial news outlet. We all know Fox will never be balanced, so rather than try to pull them towards the middle, it's better to push them further right by making them a GOP only network. It may piss off Fox's viewers (or maybe they'll be happier not to have to listen to Democrats anymore), but for people who are actually reachable to Democrats, a network that only has GOP guests will not be seen as a legitimate, impartial news network. Not that this will ever happen since there are enough conservative Dems and attention seekers who won't turn down a national TV appearance, but it's still good if party leaders don't fall into the trap of trying to argue their case to Fox viewers.

Screw Fox. Dems only legitimize it by going on. If you ask me, BHO should chuck them out of the Press Room also.

Bgno64,

I understand your point, and would only respond that the antidote to fear and hatred is personal experience.

The only option I see for these viewers to personally experience liberal/black/whatever in their echo chamber is to have someone break in and be that example, and the only Democrat who could command that space is Obama.

Would it work? Maybe not. But peeling off a portion of those viewers would be worth the try. And what would be the harm, really?

The President is trying to say that this bill will help all Americans, then he should be reaching out to all Americans, even Fox viewers.

This implies that Fox viewers don't know how to change the channel.

Obama's giving every American (with access to a TV) plenty of opportunity to see him. It's no secret when he'll appear, and on what channel. If people choose not to watch him, they only have themselves to blame.

Regular appearances by Obama on Fox could provide some economic stimulus to the consumer electronics businesses and use up some of that surplus ammunition so lovingly stockpiled by Fox viewers. There's always a silver lining.

Ignore Fox. They will only put their 'haters' on opposite the President to 'score points'...They just got done calling him 'Mao', 'Hitler', etc. Yes I'm talking to YOU Laura Ingram and Monica Crowley, let alone the out and out 'crazies' like Beck. They'd put him opposite Chris Wallace who has shown his true colors. Ignore them.

@BGNO64

"It is time to give up on trying to "convince" those who have been propagandized and will not be convinced. Fox News is not a news channel, it is a way of life - a belief system."

If he gives up talking to the people that disagree with him, and Fox is their primary stronghold, then he's giving up on his primary promise from the campaign: to listen, be reasonable, and be inclusive. Further, I disagree with your assertion that Fox is a way of life. Fox's ratings are much higher than the population of Tea Baggers and gun toting Obama rally attendants. It's a mistake to dismiss that many people as frothing right wing loonies. The worst that can happen if he appears on Fox is that he shows that he's a man of his word and wants to reach out to as many people as possible. He's bound to pick up a few people along the way.

I recognize that showing up on Fox may be an exercise in futility *sometimes* but Obama has said it himself: the partisan furor has been very thick in recent years and it's going to take time to break that habit. There's only one way to do that. he has to keep showing up and keep showing people that he wants their input. And that doesn't mean bending over for them on every issue. that's another habitual expectation the right wing has that has to be broken.

Yes - I remember all of Poniewozik's columns urging Bush and Cheney to make regular appearances on the Olbermann and Maddow shows also.

That's what I like about these media "advice" guys - they're always so even-handed

@BGNO64

"they have hearts full of hatred - hatred of liberals, hatred of blacks and Hispanics, hatred of anyone who suggests that the problems afflicting this country were caused by their own conservative political philosophy. "

I'm sorry, but THIS sort of talk is why the country is in the position that it is right now. This talk of absolutes and demonizing the "other side". People that disagree with us aren't automatically evil and hate-filled. Yes, there is a hardcore right wing fringe out there that are unshakable in their beliefs but that's a small number of people. Nothing is lost if you show up, talk, show people that you can about them too even if you do disagree with them, and part ways making sure that you'll be back despite these disagreements. Persistence will, at worst, demonstrate Obama to be a man of his word which, at the very least, gives the right less ammunition to use against him. I can't believe that he wouldn't win over a few people in a viewer pool that large.

Back formation

A word that is formed from an already existing word from which it appears to be a derivative, often by removal of a suffix (e.g., laze from lazy and edit from editor).

*good people. Not sure what "goop people" are.

"Goop people" is from Goopers is from GOP

The perception may be that Fox is a nest of Obama-haters whose audience is monolithically opposed to him,

That would be the perception. It would also be the reality.

As far as over-exposure goes, what would Obama be saving himself for? This is the big Kahuna.

He gets this right, and a lot of the other problems will become more manageable (relatively speaking, that is).

burro,

"Obama should do a special on Faux. They can call it Dancing with the Fuckwits."

Obama should HOST a special on Fox:

'ARE YOU DUMBER THAN A RIGHTWINGER ?'

If you are like me you know a lot of good people who have been sucked into the Fox News orbit. They are generally decent sorts who only hear one side of every story -- the Repubican side. Mostly they don't realize just how evil Fox News has become. They think of the professional propagandists at Fox Noise as being the voices of reason. In a lot of ways they are like frogs who have been placed in a boil of water which has been slowly heated. They are about to boil, but don't know they are in trouble.

I think the administration should send spokesmen to Fox every day. It is the only way to break the spell.

It's people like eadie and Chris who symbolize everything that's wrong with the Democratic Party. It's time to stop trying to appease implacable ideologues who will never be convinced. If the party had any guts, it'd go ahead and pass progressive HCR with a public option through the reconciliation process. Then, five years down the road, when the program has proved successful, these same implacable ideologues will be screaming, "Don't you take away my public option!" whenever Congress considers scaling it back in any way.

That's what happened with Social Security. That's what happened with Medicare. People were opposed to them at first. Now they refuse to do without them.

i wouldn't let my dog go on any rupert murdoch owned teevee network of any kind even to take a HUGE sh*t right on camera. and i don't even have a dog. f*** rupert and f*** faux. jeebus

The most influential political commentators should never be allowed to use the phrase 'I tend to think'.

Over exposure shouldn't be a problem as long as Obama keeps his presentations current. Just repeating a stump speech won't help.

It's people like eadie and Chris who symbolize everything that's wrong with the Democratic Party. It's time to stop trying to appease implacable ideologues who will never be convinced.

Did the media cover the fact that the GOP literally locked Dems out of Congressional meetings?

Did it hold Hastert accountable when he gavelled meetings closed before any Dem witnesses could speak?

Did they show outrage when the GOP waited until the night before a vote before letting Dems read the legislation?

Did it mention how the GOP used reconciliation to pass Bush's tax cuts for the rich?

Sorry, but if Dems tried any of that stuff, we'd hear about nothing else for weeks on end because, as we've seen, Republicans can say/do pretty much whatever the eff they want without the media saying an effing word about it.

I'm not sure why there are one set of rules for the GOP, and another for Dems, but ... well, there are.

If there are undecided Fox News viewers who want to see Obama speak, then it's going to better that they change the channel to watch him. There are Fox News viewers out there who are simply underinformed, true, but pretending Fox itself is anything other a propaganda machine is absurd. Don't give ammunition to people who keep fantasizing about shooting you.

here is his speech to the joint session of Congress:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-to-a-Joint-Session-of-Congress-on-Health-Care/

Can anybody figure out from the text whether the federal guidelines for best care will be mandatory or not? guidelines for best care are already published and frequently updated, and are read by nurses, doctors and hospital administrators, who attempt to implement them. Obama's language suggests that the guidelines will be guidelines rather than mandates, but unless they are mandated they won't save any hundreds of billions of $$$ more than are saved now.

Will Obama's next addresses to the nation make it clear whether they are mandates (as in some insurance policies [e.g. non-coverage of experimental drugs or drugs for off-label use], medicare/medicaid, the VA Health System) or not mandates?

This isn't the only issue on which conflicting claims for Obama's plans are made by supporters of Obama's plans.

Sooner or later, Dems will be back on Fox. They never learn. They just can't stay away. They'll be back. Watch for O'Reilly to start another clock running....

eadie: If any democrat can make a Fox "reporter" look foolish and speak directly to the goop people who somehow ended up watching Fox News, it's Obama.

Maybe, but what if anything can he say to people who watched (and later read) his address to the Joint Session of Congress? "Lies" or "not lies", his presentation contained unbelievable, vague, or ambiguous claims.

I guess if Obama is afraid of Fox, it's best to stay off it. I don't know why he's afraid, though; he's a pretty smart guy, quick on his feet, should be able to hold his own with the Fox interviewers. But if all he wants is softballs, I suppose ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN would be best.

As for not going on Fox? Definitely shouldn't go on Fox. As pointed out in another post, where Fox is concerned Perception = 100% reality! However, there could be some benefit if they were to be trusted to really show what was being said and not edit, etc. And that's where it become a problem. Even if they show a presidential conversation there is no guarantee whatsoever that it will be shown as recorded and not edited and commented over. So better not to go there.

@Screamin' Demon

"It's people like eadie and Chris who symbolize everything that's wrong with the Democratic Party. It's time to stop trying to appease implacable ideologues who will never be convinced."

Wow. No offense but you sound like you've been taking rhetoric lessons from Dick Cheney.

Please reread my posts and note the part about not bending over for the right wingers. I'm not talking about giving in to them, I'm talking about having a dialog with them. Obama showing up on Fox and answering their crazy questions give him the opportunity to knock the BS down and set the record straight on his plan. If, like many here suggest, the people that watch Fox News only get their information from Fox News, it makes sense to speak directly to these people. If a citizen doesn't know anything about the healthcare plan and they only get their news from Fox, of course they'll be afraid of it. It's something else entirely to hear an explanation of the plan directly from one of it's principle advocates and architect of its guiding principles. The Fox News audience is NOT monolithic. Simple logic dictates that their audience is far too large for that to be true.

Obama was elected in large part because of the way the Bush administration treated the part of the country that was to their left. At nearly every opportunity offered to him during the campaign and since, Obama has said that he wants to bring down the temperature of the left/right divide in this country. If he doesn't follow through with that promise, he gives more ammunition to the right. If Obama lets Fox continually define him to their audience, he will never make progress with that segment of the populace and their *IS* progress to be had there.

Finally I have to say that accusing people who are looking to foster genuine civility of appeasement is dangerous business. We had 8 years of that rhetoric and matching behavior. Where did that get us? The good guys and bad guys aren't strictly identifiable by the D or R that follow their names. If you continue to think like that, you need look no further than the Republican party of the last nine months and their on going ideological purge to see how far that will get you.

"As for not going on Fox? Definitely shouldn't go on Fox. As pointed out in another post, where Fox is concerned Perception = 100% reality!"

That's why letting Fox completely dictate his image to their viewers is so bad. If he never addresses those people, he allows Fox News to continually paint him as an alien presence and that will do nothing but feed into the suspicions of the fringe right that have been toting guns to his rallies and believing anything bad that their told about him and his plans. If Fox viewers are continually told "He doesn't care about you" and then never shows up to speak to them, he plays directly into their hands.

As far as the dangers of editing go, he's sat down with Fox in the past and handily held his own. I turned on Fox for his O'reilly interview and was happy with the results. He'd be better off sitting down with Chris Wallace of someone that doesn't bluster past the interviewee though.

I don't think ALL Fox viewers are evil- many have been fooled by false but seductive messages- but I don't think Obama can fix that by appearing on Fox. The liars from Fox will always have more air time on their own network than Obama can get. They get last word. The only way to rescue the deluded but decent subset of Fox viewers is to get them to change the channel, so they can see what reality is actually like.

@Chris:

"This talk of absolutes and demonizing the "other side".

No dude, I'm talking about my mother and my sister. As I said, I'm related to members of Fox News Nation, and I know exactly how they think.

Let me give you one aspect of that: My mother was apolitical virtually all of her life, until now, in her mid-60s, when she started watching Fox. She and my father as big Bill O'Reilly fans - my dad at least retains a veneer of rationality.

Not mom. She now knows it all; any time you try to raise an inconvenient fact that punctures the Fox News bubble, it's "Oh, come on." or "You need to be more open-minded." The moment Obama's name is mentioned she snarls: "I hate him, he is such a liar."

Two weeks ago she tells me how outraged she is, she might march in one of these tea party rallies; and I ask: "What are you outraged about?" And there was no coherent answer. Obama's spending (Me: But what of Bush's spending? Her: Oh come on).

Mostly she's mad because she watches Fox and the Fox News ideology was defeated at the polls last November and she resents it. She is filled to the brim with political resentment, and there is no natural reason for it to be there. Fox has filled her, as an empty vessel.

Sure, it's incorrect to say that ALL Fox News viewers are like this. But did you see some of the placards at last weekend's teabag protest, with the protesters declaring that ALL OTHER MAJOR NEWS SOURCES are biased - CNN, MSNBC, the NYT, Washington Post, everyone... only Fox News tells the truth!

Then there was the woman in Max Bluementhal's video with the sign that seating was reserved for Glenn Beck fans only; her glazed expression must have been on the faces of the doomed at Jonestown.

One more time: These people are not going to be convinced. We liberals allll want to think that if ONLY we reason with people, then they'll see the light!

News flash: They're not gonna see the light. They don't want to see the light; they think they HAVE seen the light, on Fox News.

They are thoroughly propagandized. And we think we can counter that if only we find the right words, if only Obama goes into the belly of their beast and sounds soothing? That will make them hate him even more.

Marginalize their network; marginalize them. Stop wasting your breath and thinking, "If only..." There is no "if only."

Burro wins this post

Posted by: John R at 10:37 AM

Thanks John R. Grumpy planted the seed.

@BGNO64

That rally was maybe 70K of millions of Fox News viewers. Those people at the rally are the hardcore fringe that I'm talking about. No, of course their not gong to be convinced by anything Obama says. The videos of their reactions to the few brave health care supporters that waded into that crowd tell you all you need to know about that segment of their audience. That's all those people are though, a segment.

Obama NOT appearing on Fox isn't going to marginalize the network. Their audience is too large, they're too much a part of the larger right wing media machine to be disregarded. Think I'm wrong? I have two words for you: death panels. Palin writes it, Fox transmits it across the country and a new rallying cry is born. Ignore them and their audience at your peril. All it will do is serve to reinforce what Fox News' viewers are being told every day: Obama isn't listening to you and they don't care what you want. It's short step from that to "he's subverting the country and taking over" which is the sort of thing that Beck says on a daily basis.

Going into the belly of the beast and humanizing himself is the best way to *help* nullify their message. Fox New's audience believe the crap they're fed because they feel like they're not being heard elsewhere. There is absolutely NO HARM in showing up @ Fox and letting their audience know that they are being heard and that their concerns matter to the President too. Worst case he hasn't changed any minds but every poll I've seen after every speech and every interview he's given predicts otherwise.

@Chris:

So should he also go on Limbaugh's radio program? Maybe Michael Savage?

Maybe JFK should have sat down for an interview with American Opinion, the John Birch Society's magazine?

This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for Fox News Nation. The more they complain about being marginalized, the more they lash out on that basis, the more they are marginalized, and rightly so. And at this point I simply don't trust Fox News to treat Obama with even politness. You know as well as I do Hannity will slice and dice just like he did last time.

And to assume that if Obama goes on the network it will help dispel the "Obama doesn't listen to you" meme. It will not: Again, refer to my above post, the core Fox News demographic is going to listen to whatever Obama says and deem it a lie; every single one of his statements will be deemed evasive, he could be as straightfoward as possible with them and they will accuse him of obfuscating, and that message will be reinforced in and endless loop by not just O'Reilly or Hannity or Beck, but even Chris Wallace and surely the idiots on Fox & Friends.

Mr Benen,

Keep up your dinosaur media sarcasm. You will be out of a job when the Washington Post newspaper goes out of business and the Washington Post website can't even compete in the internet universe because the corporate suits discovered TOO LATE where the news and information culture has gone without them. You are no longer the gatekeeper.