"...keep in mind they are being influenced by the works of someone who thought America was being plunged into socialist tyranny by the Eisenhower administration."

Yeah, those socialist interstate highways were the death of civilizaton as we knew it.

I don't know about "natural" law... Only thing similar between "god"'s natural law and actual natural law is the throwing of feces at your opponents.

Actually, the Interstate highway system is widely and deeply hated in rural America. It economically destroyed thousands of small towns through which traffic had previously been (however unwillingly) funneled. It tipped the urban/rural balance significantly. Nostalgia for the 1950s is not just about short haircuts; it is also about all the business that dried up when the traffic on the two-lane road stopped.

Required reading: "Crazy For God" by Frank Schaffer.......... the guy who has been on Maddow's and Oberman's shows ..... that's the evil bottom line of what is behind the insane/ delusional 'humans' including pig shit Beck

Cognitive Dissonance...

On Skousen:

... a factually challenged attempt to explain American history through an unspoken lens of Mormon theology. As such, it is an early entry in the ongoing attempt by the religious right to rewrite history. Fundamentalists want to define the United States as a Christian nation rather than a secular republic, and recast the Founding Fathers as devout Christians guided by the Bible

Rand's philosophy was anti-Christian to the point of even declaring that "faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason."[1] The movement she founded supports an "absolute right" to abortion at any time during pregnancy,[2] including partial-birth abortion.

---Skousen says have resulted in more God-directed progress than was achieved in the previous 5,000 years of every other civilization combined.---

Most sane people attribute this phenomenon to the Industrial Revolution. Unbeknownst to Skousen, his god is James Watt. Of course, the category of things unbeknownst to Skousen is very large.

Is anyone wondering when Beck will ask his audience to convert to Mormonism? And is anyone doubting that they will?

I moved to Salt Lake City in 1973 to attend the University of Utah. The first time I talked to a Mormon Republican I realized that they were crazy and I ceased to call myself a Republican.

Since then I have watched that kind of crazy take over the entire Republican party. Right wing Christians buy into those beliefs without ever understanding that it is straight up Mormon church doctrine they are being taught. Authoritarianism is fundamental to the Mormon world view. Elections are held merely to affirm what has already been decided in heaven and conveyed to the people by the prophets of the church.

Elections are held merely to affirm what has already been decided in heaven and conveyed to the people by the prophets of the church.

So they think God made a mistake when Obama won?

I get the distinct feeling that they are trying to push Mormonism or rather Mormon leaders for some purpose, Mittens.

"....the modern base of the Republican Party is headed to a very strange place."

Salt Lake City, Utah?
Cool!
Let them pound salt (while tea-bagging).

We've already seen the rehabilitation of Joe McCarthy by Ann Coulter. Now it's time for the John Birch Society to make a comeback. Next Glenn Beck will be touting "The Turner Diaries" on his show.

You're crazy if you think conservatives generally follow Skousen and his nutty theories. See Little Green Footballs for what one prominent conservative blogger (Charles Johnson) has to say about him.

I think it is important to note that the John Birch Society also distanced themselves from Skousen during the 1980's when the later went on his "new world order" (ie. international jews) kick....for all their extremism, the John Birch Society never had much tolerance for anti-semites.

"Actually, the Interstate highway system is widely and deeply hated in rural America. It economically destroyed thousands of small towns through which traffic had previously been (however unwillingly) funneled."

I take it that those who "deeply hate" our interstate highway system refuse to use it. Instead they use back roads exclusively when traveling, stopping in older small towns along the way to fill up at the local gas stations, get refreshments at the local general store, and chow down at the local diner.

No. I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to "deeply hate" our interstate highway system, while taking advantage of our interstate highway system.

The fact is that anybody who has taken a ride on the interstate, or eaten an apple that has taken a ride on the interstate is a socialist. Medicare/Social Security beneficiaries? Socialists. Parents of public school attendies? Socialists. Those who purchase products delivered to our ports? Socialists.

In short, we're all socialists.

I'm just impressed that the Teabaggers are able to read.

You're crazy if you think conservatives generally follow Skousen and his nutty theories.

Yeah, you'd never see, for example, a prominent Republican governor or right-wing talk show host advocate his nutty theories in public.

Jackass.

Skousen's book is a huge success with the Teabagging crowd. . .

For adults who've never read any book at all the experience must be an eye-opener.

There are a lot of organizations and companies that target this population with all kinds of smaller things and product advertisements that build to create the Teabagger world-view and who are happy to sell their mailing lists to anyone who comes along.

It often seems to me that progressives are preaching to the choir. Is there any group working to send these people things they will actually look at? DVDs, free magazines, Theodore Roosevelt biographies?

They'd look at a Theodore Roosevelt biography, (but if you described Roosevelt's politics to any live Republican without mentioning his name he'd spit on you.)

Although the books remained on the bestsellers lists, I would wager that they are some of the least read books in the world. The TeeVee crowd listening to Beck (also known as Beckerheads) are not know for their intellectual acumen, but will support their leader (i.e. buy the book, but not necessarily read it).

I'm wondering if Fox will follow the script of Network once Beck's rating fall.

Cleon Skousen was a certifiable nut. Take it from someone from Utah. A pure, unadulterated bag of crazy.

Rick Perry is shoring up his credentials with the base for next year's election. He's a whore.

As for the Mormons, weren't the two doctors who constructed and/or supervised the torture program Mormon? Didn't the Mormon Church bankroll the anti-gay marriage proposition in California last year? Aren't many of these polygamist sects offshoots of the Church? And now Glenn Beck foists one of their most extreme ranters on us.

All of these examples are or may be outliers, but the Mormon Church seems to be providing some of the more disgusting components of political and social issues these days.

Somebody tell us something good the Church does. There has to be something.

""Leap," first published in 1981, is a heavily illustrated. . "

-so is my pre-schooler's coloring book. And is written for the same level of sophistication/education as "Leap". . .

DBL: You're crazy if you think conservatives generally follow Skousen and his nutty theories. See Little Green Footballs for what one prominent conservative blogger (Charles Johnson) has to say about him.

Sorry DBL, Charles Johnson has been cast out of the conservative movement precisely because he spoke out against this madness. Perhaps you hadn't heard?

Skousen's book, which is at #119 as of this hour, has been as high as #3 on Amazon recently. It isn't progressives who are buying it. It is the nut brigade known as the "conservative" movement in this country, which is nothing but a pedestrian reactionary movement trying to cloak itself in ever more originalist ideas, e.g. Founding Fathers! Jesus! Moses! Noah!

"Leap," first published in 1981, is a heavily illustrated and factually challenged...

No wonder Gov. Goodhair & the teabaggers like it. It's got pictures!

Stuart: Elections are held merely to affirm what has already been decided in heaven and conveyed to the people by the prophets of the church.

Missouri: So they think God made a mistake when Obama won?

Just to clear up misconceptions here before they start: Stuart is talking about the practice of "sustaining" church leaders. A lot of anti-Mormon texts refer to this as "electing" and then point out that it's not really "electing" when the expected and normal result is 100% "for" 0% "against". The problem is that it's not thought of or modeled after an election; the only similarity is that it is called a "sustaining vote" in many wards (although I haven't seen "vote" used in official Church materials).

The "sustaining vote" is a pledge and affirmation, taking on precisely two meanings:

1. The one raising his hand affirms that he believes that the leader was called by God to this calling (or, at the least, has no belief otherwise)

2. The one raising his hand pledges to support the given leader in their calling so that they can be successful at it.

This is as far from an "election" as can be. There are no elections in the LDS Church. Again, the only folks who call this an "election" are those who wish to then tear down their little strawman by pointing out it is a poor "election" indeed!

(Not that I'm saying Stuart is trying to unfairly malign the LDS Church, but rather that he likely picked up that talking point by hearing anti-LDS blowhards while in Utah)

Misrepresentations and half-truths are good enough for the conservative know-nothings; we on the left need to take better care of what we internalize as "true".

For the record: I'm a one-time member of the LDS faith, but thoroughly disgusted by the Church's recent political forays.

To Tom Dibble on his defense of the LDS faith:

Did you give up on the LDS before or after they stopped the 'belief' that being born with dark skin was a mark of satan?

As a non-member of the LDS, my experiences with Mormons has been in business situations where they will figuratively cut your throat if you are not a Mormon.

I take it that those who "deeply hate" our interstate highway system refuse to use it. Instead they use back roads exclusively when traveling, stopping in older small towns along the way to fill up at the local gas stations, get refreshments at the local general store, and chow down at the local diner.

Chris you would be surprised to find out how often this is true. The old network of U.S. and state highways still exists and many people prefer to use them instead on getting on freeways full of trucks and travelers passing through. And a lot of rural people don't do a lot of traveling anyway and do prefer to shop local when they can.

Certainly there are areas in the West where the Interstate collocated with the old highway and so limiting town to town travel to the highway and certainly people needing to travel a thousand miles to visit grandma or go to Disneyland are not going to cut their noses off to spite their face by taking slower backroads. But particularly in farming country you can navigate around pretty well without ever having to use the freeway. And the result is that in taking say I 90 to I 82 to I 84 to go from Seattle to Boise you can go the whole route without seeing much in the way of businesses serving the local community.

I don't know that this translates to 'hate' but urban people who think they are doing rural areas a big favor by building four lane highways through them are fooling themselves. Interstates as their name suggests exist mostly to facilitate interstate commerce and big city to big city travel.

"So they think God made a mistake when Obama won?"

no, god doesn't make mistakes. we mere humans fucked it up by not paying adequate attention. obviously, the grumpy old man and caribou barbie were god's choices, and the blech crowd are just trying to restore god's natural order.

Someone has created a map of what the US looks like if you can see nothing but the roads,

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17691

but look at the map more closely,

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn17691/dn17691-1_800.jpg

The whole region of the Midwest from Pennsylvania to Nebraska is about even covered, because of all the farm roads, but look at the South. Despite being heavily agricultural, it has about half the road coverage.

These people are their own worst enemy.

In response to Todd B. Somebody tell us something good the Church does. There has to be something.

Something good is pretty subjective but here goes.

The genealogy records that the LDS church keeps and has opened to the public is a good thing not just for genealogists [amateur and pro] but is something good for society. On a more local level I know that several homeless shelters receive help [money & volunteers] from the local LDS church who do not prophesize but just want to help. That is also something good. On a personal level I admire the commitment to family that is a tenet of the church, and I admire the practice of being prepared for emergencies. And the LDS church gave us liberals Harry Reid. Oops maybe not something good.

All that being said the LDS church has some major issues from recent history back to being founded by a con man. I�ve had and have great friends who were Mormons so I will not unilaterally bash all members of that faith. As for Skousen he is not even close to the craziest Mormon by a long shot. That person was James Strang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strang

A post partly about the LDS church next a post about porno.
I need to watch ORGAZMO again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgazmo

Somebody tell us something good the Church does. There has to be something. - Todd B. @ 12:23

The bicycle business benefits...they enable the missionaries to appear on our doorsteps.

You get baptized when your dead, whether you like it or not.

I'm tapped, anybody else?

cjfromwi @ at 3:44

oops, posted to soon.

I think most/all religious organizations I've seen (not that many actually) do or profess all those good traits. Other than the genealogy, LDS isn't much different than the next.

What seems to be conflicting to me is trying to keep "my brothers keeper" philosophy along with the Republican dogma of I've got mine, screw you. Unless family is to go bankrupt for kin.

The whole region of the Midwest from Pennsylvania to Nebraska is about even covered, because of all the farm roads, but look at the South. Despite being heavily agricultural, it has about half the road coverage.

Topography has something to do with that, too. It's a bit easier to build roads through relatively flat land than it is to build them through mountains and swamps. The centuries-long struggle of many Southerners to eke a living out of shitty land is one part of the region's story that should not be overlooked.

cjfromwi, Kevin

Thanks. I remembered the genealogy records after I posted. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir sounds really good at Christmas time too.

Every religion is a wide range of experience, just funny how Mormons keep popping up lately in some bad places. I didn't want the trap of generalization.

dr s,

I'd think a challenging topography would make them redouble their efforts, but here the efforts they redoubled were to ignore an obvious public need, because it's convenient that way; divide and conquer.

No taxes> no public services > no public = who's to argue with you?

26-page report on Cleon Skousen which is based upon his FBI personnel file may be seen here:

http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/skousen

One comment in this thread claims that the JBS distanced itself from Skousen in the 1980's. Not true! And when he died, the Birch Society published an article which was filled with effusive praise for Skousen.

Cleon Skousen is considered a fringe element even in many Mormon circles.

And he has not remained as popular among the next generation of Mormons as he was in the 1980s.

Painting him as somehow authoritatively representative of "Mormon theology" is completely wrong and unfair.

Seth R., two points.

1) Skousen wrote and spoke IN THE NAME OF the LDS, who have gone to extreme lengths at various times to defend the purity of their message. If they wanted to repudiate him, they knew how.

2) Once they hang out a shingle, says "We are THE path to salvation", everything becomes fair game. They can't whine about "unfair" any more. They don't have standing.

What shoddy research. Yes the FBI has a file on Skousen. He worked there! It's his personnel file.

Yes they found a mayor who doesn't like him...he arrested the mayor on legal charges. That is the character source chosen? Someone he arrested?

If you want to find reasons to not like Skousen, I'm sure you can, but at least choose some factual reasons.

In reply to Britt:

Skousen's FBI file is over 1900 pages. The hostility toward Skousen which is revealed in FBI memos by senior FBI officials has nothing whatsoever to do with his being fired by Salt Lake City Mayor J. Bracken Lee (who, incidentally, like Skousen was an endorser of the John Birch Society!)

So for you to pick one item and blow it up as though the concerns expressed by FBI officials about Skousen had something to do with his term as SLC Police Chief is totally absurd and disingenuous.

The "factual reasons" why the Bureau was hostile toward Skousen may be summarized as follows:

(1) Skousen lied about his career within the FBI. He was NOT as he claimed "a top aide" to J. Edgar Hoover nor was he an "administrative assistant" to Hoover.

(2) Skousen lied about the predominant nature of his assignments during his FBI career. His assignments were primarily administrative, not investigative. He never worked in the Domestic Intelligence Division which was the Division that specialized in internal security related matters.

(3) Skousen published articles which contained falsehoods -- and he used his FBI credentials to convince audiences to believe him.

(4) Prominent hard-line anti-communist conservatives contacted the Bureau and reported their disgust with Skousen.

For example, Admiral Chester Ward, a former Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Navy (and another Birch Society endorser!) told the Bureau that he (Ward) considered Skousen to be an "unprincipled racketeer in anticommunism" who was "money mad" and "who is doing anything and everything to exploit the subject."

Skousen contacted Ward and asked him if he would join Skousen in a project sponsored by the American Security Council.

Ward told his successor as Navy Judge Advocate "that he intended to have absolutely nothing to do with Skousen in this or any other of his money-making ventures in this field since he feels that Skousen is totally unqualified and is interested solely in furthering his own personal ends.”

(3) Lastly, the Bureau distanced itself from Skousen because they believed he was associated with "professional anti-communists" who represented "extreme right" viewpoints. The Bureau was incensed that Skousen claimed expertise regarding communist matters because of his FBI career. As one Bureau memo observes:

“As you know, we frequently receive inquiries from the public regarding Skousen’s qualifications to speak with authority on the subject of communism. In view of his obvious efforts to capitalize on his former Bureau association, I feel that it would be well for us to take positive measures to clarify the Bureau’s position in regard to Skousen whenever we receive public inquiries concerning him. I feel, for example, that in addition to stating that his views are his own, that we should also add in correspondence concerning him that he was not regarded as any authority on communism while employed with the FBI. That is certainly a true statement and it might serve in some measure to prevent Skousen from using the FBI’s name for his own personal gain.” [HQ 67-69602, #338; 1/2/63 memo from W.C. Sullivan to A.H. Belmont.]

BRITT: For specific details regarding why the Bureau was so hostile toward Skousen, see my 26-page report (recently updated) here:

http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/skousen

ernie I've read some of what you've written. I still find the article form the OP very skewed. Agreed that Skousen misrepresented his FBI experience...but does that make him "less a scholar of the republic than a threat to it. At least, that was the judgment of J. Edgar Hoover's FBI" Really a threat to the republic? Oh and don't forget as your #2 also says, he misrepresented his job...wasn't that also #1? Oh and in #3 he misrepresented his FBI position...isn't that #1 and #2?

Really people called and complained...he's too anti communist? That's his biggest problem?

There are a million little things in the article...surely you see that choosing Lee as a character reference is ridiculous. Then they go for Godwin's law and compare Skousen to the Nazis...

seriously? Skousen killed who?

Does Skousen have problems? Absolutely. Choose some of his real problems to focus on... I don't mind publishing that he misrepresented his experience, but saying he is a major threat to the republic as a result? Oh no..run away a man who's work was mostly administrative and worked in the FBI for President Hoover says he was an administrative assistant for the President. That just SCREAMS danger.

Skousen's worst problem is he has a different political point of view than the author.

BRITT: Your last message is a very clever attempt to misrepresent the problem presented by Skousen.

1. Nobody seriously claims that Skousen was "a major threat to the Republic".

2. Skousen's "worst problem" was not that he had a "different political point of view than the author".

Let me put it this way:

Suppose you have a serious medical problem and someone recommends that you see a "specialist" who has "a different view" than most medical professionals. Suppose, further, that you are told that this specialist has a better understanding of your medical problem and a higher rate of success treating it than anyone else in his field.

Suppose, lastly, that you ultimately discover the following FACTS:

(1) The specialist does NOT have the education or training you were told he had

(2) The specialist deliberately misrepresented his education and training -- in fact, he is not even a medical professional

(3) The specialist has had no success whatsoever treating your medical problem

AFTER you spend thousands of dollars for appointments and treatments from this specialist and you discover his ACTUAL history, would you be willing to shrug it all off by saying:

"Oh well, he just had a different opinion about my medical problem" ???

Furthermore, as my Skousen report demonstrates, Skousen used anti-semitic sources in some of his writings. I'm certain that he never investigated those sources -- but he used them nevertheless.

And in response to your attempt to diminish the significance of my previous points #1 - #3:

Each point I made should be considered separately because they represent distinct flaws. For example, somebody can falsely claim to have been a "top aide" to Hoover while still being honest about the predominant nature of his assignments within the FBI. And, then, somebody can falsely describe his position or status within the FBI without claiming in his post-FBI endeavors that he acquired special expertise in a particular subject area.

The question which you understandably do not want to address is WHY Skousen's admirers continue (to this day) to use his FBI credentials to support his personal opinions. For example, recently I saw a message on-line which claimed that Skousen was #3 in the FBI -- which is a total falsehood.

So WHY do his admirers want people to believe these falsehoods? It is because they believe it lends weight and importance and credence to his assertions and conclusions. Strip away the mythology and, suddenly, Skousen's views are no more credible than any other layman.

As J. Edgar Hoover wrote in reply to one inquiry about Skousen:

“I welcome the opportunity to make it perfectly clear that former Special Agents of the FBI are not necessarily experts on communism. Some of them have sought to capitalize on their former employment with this Bureau for the purpose of establishing themselves as such authorities. I am firmly convinced there are too many self-styled experts on communism, without valid credentials and without any access whatsoever to classified, factual data, who are engaging in rumor mongering and hurling false and wholly unsubstantiated allegations against people whose views differ from their own. This makes more difficult the task of the professional investigator.”

“Mr. W. Cleon Skousen entered on duty with the FBI as a clerk on October 24, 1935, in which capacity he served until June 17, 1940, when he became a Special Agent. He voluntarily resigned the latter position on October 5, 1951. Mr. Skousen is no longer associated with the FBI and his opinions are strictly his own and do not represent this Bureau in any way.” [HQ 94-47468, #49; 4/17/62 J. Edgar Hoover reply to Sister Mary Shaun, Notre Dame Convent, Trenton, NJ.]

Lastly, Skousen endorsed and was a paid speaker for the John Birch Society. J. Edgar Hoover and senior FBI officials described the JBS as "extremist", "irresponsible", "irrational", "lunatic fringe" and "fanatics".

Perhaps you should consider the impact that someone who circulates FALSEHOODS can have upon public perceptions and debate. What benefit is there to us if we believe false ideas? How does believing them impact our behavior and public policy choices? If you need a contemporary example to consider -- then think about our invasion of Iraq.