OMG! Our beloved private insurance companies! Must protect them at all costs!

...an entire political party has committed itself to repeating talking points with no basis in reality.

The truth shall set one free - too bad our confused Congressional Representatives are chained to the lies of an entrenched vested interest!

Existing insurance giants work in nefarious ways - behind the scenes lobbying and campaign donations used to pool industry-friendly elected officials, securing industry friendly legislation such as the allowance for "highly concentrated markets," and recessionary rights used to expand an already ridiculously large profit margin by denying care to the sick.

We are watching an historic moment when we shall see who is for the American Experience as we embrace our future as a people, and who is for more of the same hurt we Americas have been feeling for far too long now! -Kevo

while confused politicians debate the merit of ideas that aren't being proposed.

They aren't confused. They are simply corrupt, and fully dedicated to preserving the privileges of their patrons by shrieking lies to their gullible supporters. Like the Terminator, they can't be reasoned with.

In a healthy representative democracy, opposing parties clash over differing judgments and worldviews, but all are loyal to what they see and the best interests of their country as a whole.

Today's GOP isn't doing that anymore; they are simply trying to use any tricks they can think of to preserve the positions of those who fund them, and the rest of the country (and the world) can be damned. Their arguments are ridiculous and dishonest, but they aren't intended to be taken at face value. Instead the arguments are intended to appeal to the emotions of the ignorant.

Republicans are no longer part of any sort of democratic discourse; they are simply parasites trying to use the system to undermine itself.

I heartily hope their party self-immolates in the years to come, so that we might develop a real opposition to keep the Dems at least somewhat honest. Because as long as the GOP exists in its present form, we have in effect a one-party system (i.e. one actual political party and a collection of kleptocrats posing as a political party), and those are never a good idea in the long term.

ad nauseum

Also known as ad nauseam. Please learn to spell.

Think Progress has a video that shows how immaturely the republicans are acting today during debate on the bill. The republicans have lost all respect for House rules and their opponents, and it's embarrassing to watch.

Please learn to spell.

Please learn how to walk the Earth not as an obnoxious asshole, but as a helpful human.

I swear, there's nothing to fuck up a good afternoon of surfing than some spelling sniffer, dern those turds annoy me.

Criminal penalties (H.R. 3962)

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

� Section 7203 � misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

� Section 7201 � felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.

*************************************************

Assertions by water-carriers is not "debunking."

The public option, or mandate, or exchange, or whatever Dem hacks care to call it today distills directly to eventual control by the government of individual health insurance choices. Plus 3Trillion dollars we ain't got.

The program will grow eg.: just as Social Security has expanded far beyond helping seniors. Just as it has been intended to grow by supporters of single-payer.

Every sentient voter on both sides of this question knows this. Which is why the Dems condescension and disingenousness is so transparent; and simply lies.

This is about control. As in "criminal penalties."

Most Americans will resist this "for their own good" control.

Which is why ObamaCare is tanking in the polls.

And also why swing district Dem Reps have little yellow puddles under their desks on the House floor as I type this.

Where is the OUTRAGE (and the fact-checking) towards the outright LYING going on right in the HOUSE at this moment...this is what passes for "debate" in this country and we wonder why America is viewed with derision throughout the world. If I hear one more REPUGLICAN Scumbag tell people that folks living in England or Canada with disease/health problems would just DIE!!! And, all the other statements that could NEVER be proven correct...but they don't care nor do the people who follow them around like sheeple...they throw up a chart and expect people to buy all that they say...you are so correct that they will NOT actually discuss and/or debate legitimate issues that could be examined and made better...they are practically FOAMING AT THE MOUTH because they realize that if REFORM does get a leg up they will be DOOMED!!! Back to guns, gays, and GOD for the wingnuts!!!

I recently discovered an Idaho blogger, an 80-year old (just had his birthday, was born the day of the Great Crash) retired UCLA Anthropology professor who blogs under the name Morialekafa. He posts one long essay a day. They are always worth reading, but today's is particularly relevant. Just a sample:

Goebbels, it turns out, might have been a pioneer when it came to lying, but he is now passé. It was Herr Goebbels, I believe, who said something to the effect that “if you tell a big lie often enough people will come to believe it.” Rove, Bush and Cheney refined that technique by discovering that if you tell constant lies about everything, all the time, truth simply becomes completely irrelevant. That is what I think is going on now. We have reached the point where the lies have become so commonplace and ubiquitous that no one has any idea of truth anymore. This is why Republicans can now say anything they wish, no matter how unbelievably ridiculous, and there will be at least some who will believe them. And it is also why whatever Democrats say cannot be believed because no one believes there is any truth anymore. Thus when Republicans say the Obama health care proposals mean that old people will be put to death, no Democratic denial matters, because we have all been conditioned to understand that no one tells the truth. If Bachmann claims there were 50,000 or 500,000 supporters at her rally in D.C., and someone else claims there were a million, the police claim of 4,000 is no more acceptable than the larger numbers, because who knows anymore who is lying? If Republicans claim a huge victory in the election last Tuesday, and Democrats think otherwise, who is to know? Everything nowadays is just considered “spin” because that is what we have been fed for the past eight or more years. I have to concede, however grudgingly, that this was a brilliant strategy on the part of Bush/Cheney. The result of it is that nothing can be taken seriously as there is no truth.

A good meta-comment on the whole situation we're in.

@tao9-"depending on the level of noncompliance" and "could apply to an individual". Typical reading comprehension skills lacking by the right. "Depending" is open to interpretation, since you did not include the "levels of noncompliance". "Could" is not defined as will.

"you're going to drive every private health insurance company out of business."

Cool! Where do I sign up?!?

If the House bill is a "solid piece of legislation" in your eyes, I have no reason to revisit this site.

My reading comp skills are fine.

And you're reading the wrong damn sentence:

"Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses."

Coercion is a very comprehensible word, lambchop.

This is why it's going to pass. Most of the Dems know the GOP is spewing nonsense. But the GOPers don't know that, they really don't. Either they believe it, or they're just ignorant. They can't even break out of the framework they use for the cable nets if they wanted to. They might not even realize they're in it.

It's stunning how out of touch with reality the Republicans are even when it's in their own obstructionist interests not to be.

Coercion is a very comprehensible word, lambchop.
Posted by: tao9

What exactly should be the penalty for failing to pay your share, be it FISA, medicare, or a public option?

Libertarians are leeches of the worst order. And pussies.

Truth is the first casualty of Republican talking points. So what else is new? Of course they have a Pinocchio problem. Of course they lie. They're Republicans. It's what they do. If they don't have an argument they make something up. They know that rather than fact-checking, the MSM will simply repeat the lie, in a "fair and balanced" manner, as a "he-said-she-said" disagreement. And they also know that H.L. Mencken was right -- no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American booboisie.

What has happened is professional Republican politicians are using focus groups not to fine tune their message, but to create it out of whole cloth.

It's not leadership, but when did Republicans last engage in leadership?

Boehner partly blamed the federal insurance plan for the takeover, saying, "you' re going to drive every private health insurance company out of business."

Those would be the same insurance companies that f#ck patients over on on a regular basis.

Oh, those poor little insurance companies, forced to compete in the open market like any other business. How can they monopolize an entire sector of the economy under those circumstances? It's SO unfair!

"Anyone who repeats them is, without exception, either charlatan or a fool."

I respectfully disagree. Most of those people are both charlatans and fools.

"What exactly should be the penalty for failing to pay your share, be it FISA, medicare, or a public option?"

That's preciously moralistic and makes you feel all dreamy and fair but not how it's going to work. Have the cojones to see history repeat.

Everyone is covered now by Social Security. In theory. I'll believe it when I get my first check in twenty years.

All seniors are covered now. In theory. (And H.R. 3962 already cuts Medicare A $500Billion; just ask my parents.)

Fair share is meaningless if the government croaks the economy by absorbing the nation's capital via tax, inflation, and currency death in search of another entitlement to make more little sheepy dependents out of more citizens. That doesn't even figure the Pelosi VAT that's coming to pay for this cadaver of a bill after 2019.

Going social-democrat Euro makes you all feel so equality-progressivey and hopey. The Chinese and Indian emerging economies only see future toast.

They aren't confused. They are simply corrupt, and fully dedicated to preserving the privileges of their patrons by shrieking lies to their gullible supporters. Like the Terminator, they can't be reasoned with.

I agree. But the real question in my mind is why the Dems can't compete politically with those wusses. I mean, I have rarely seen such a bunch of wimps as the Republican opposition. Smack 'em!

tao69 @ 5:53 -

"Everyone is covered by Social Security now. In theory."
Wrong.

"All seniors are covered."
Wrong.

"Fair share is wrong if the government croaks the economy..."
What happens to "fair share" when the all-perfect, not-possibly-ever wrong, private-owned financial industry "croaks" the economy? See Wall Street if you haven't any idea of what I'm referring to.

"...to make more sheepy dependents out of citizens..."
We prefer to be referred to as "ovine", thank you.

"That doesn't even figure(sic) the Pelosi VAT that's coming in to pay for this cadaver of a bill after 2019."
Another wrong. A simple increase in the FICA tax rate will be sufficient. Don't worry, though, you're safe as long as there's no increase on the stupid tax

nobody can say why this is "A very good bill", they just say it is one.

They used to say it banned rescission, but don't anymore because the bill doesn't actually ban rescission. It issues a 5k fine. Want to bet what happens to customers with more than 5k in hospital bills?

They used to say it offered Guarantee issue, but again, the 5k fine is too small to actually do that.

They used to say it was universal healthcare, but they can't anymore because it doesn't actually cover everyone.

Those aren't "flaws". Those are reasons why this bill won't actually do everything it's proponents loved to claim that any bill "HAD TO HAVE" 6 months ago. Today, even though it fails to achieve even one of it's initial "must have" goals (Guaranteed issue, cost reduction, banning rescission), there are still people pretending this isn't a really, really shitty bill.

For 20 years, Democrats have said that with these kind of majorities, they could get healthcare. At the very least, a bill that people could honestly call 'major' would have been passed. Instead, it's left the hacks and the Obamatons to claim it's a great bill without offering any real explanation for why they think so.

I have been following the debate all day(mostly during breaks in the football games) and I have to say that if the House manages to pass the bill they will do so without bringing any credit upon themselves. All in all a sad but amazing spectacle.

This bill sucks.

We should vote it down, and move on to the single-payer plan funded by a new top income tax bracket of 55% that just passed committees in the House and Senate, and sits next on the House agenda.

Hey, wait a minute...

its puzzling given the recent history of the republicans why anyone would expect anything else from them other than lies, dissembling, and obfuscation. republicans have become completely detached from realty and without a decent bone in their bodies are solely out to obstruct any progress on anything.

At least they can try to score this bill correctly. Dems are floating around CBO scores for the first ten years, which only contain seven years of spending. That makes it look like it costs less than it really does.

If one scores it from the start of benefits, three years from now, the CBO estimates almost a two trillion price tag and, in fact, adds to the deficit.

"A simple increase in the FICA tax rate will be sufficient."

Double FICA. Hell, tax the top 5% earners at 100%.

Add the above together, cut Medicare, and you still don't get to what the bill will cost.

Did Madoff run your numbers?

Socialism, government takeover blah, blah, blah. This is the natural language of a cultural protest movement, not a political party, so we had better get used to it from Republicans. To expect a "party" that just gave away a safe GOP seat for ideological reasons -- and then declared VICTORY! -- to care two whits about public policy or even governing is to totally mistake what kind of animial we are dealing with in the Palin/Beck led conservative movement.

House Republicans are now prisioners of a cultural movement. It almost seems perverse to even call them "Republican." You cannot make sense of what they do or say unless you realize it has nothing to do with conventional politics as we know it. Read Richard Hofstader's chapter on the 1964 Goldwater race and how right wing ideologues were actually giddy after Goldwater's landslide loss because they thought they had won. They had never had such an exhaulted platform from which to push their hard right doctrine. The Radical Right was now the "establishment" and they couldn't be happier.

Goldwater's most passionate followers did not mind that he lost and they had no interest at all in changing their tune to win in the future. They were interested in politics as missionaries for a right wing authoritarian vision of America, not to get people elected to set an agenda that included working cooperatively with Democrats and others.

This is about control. As in "criminal penalties."

LOL... It's called an "individual mandate," moron, something that Republicans were in favor of until they decided they could use it as propaganda. The same thing applies to taxes or automobile insurance but, funny, I don't see Republicans making much of a fuss about those.

I'll believe it when I get my first check in twenty years.

Nah, you probably won't, given your refusal to recognize reality here. But don't worry, you'll get that paycheck, anyway. Sadly, they don't believe in denying benefits to morons.

(And H.R. 3962 already cuts Medicare A $500Billion; just ask my parents.)

ROFL.... Why, because they're as dumb as you? You're wrong, of course, but then you already knew that and were just playing silly games.

Fair share is meaningless if the government croaks the economy by absorbing the nation's capital via tax, inflation, and currency death in search of another entitlement to make more little sheepy dependents out of more citizens.

ROFL... Lovely little rant. Too bad it's not based on anything even remotely resembling reality.

Going social-democrat Euro makes you all feel so equality-progressivey and hopey.

Also cheapy. See, for example, every other major industrialized nation.

This was some seriously hilarious shit. Do keep it up.

wow, there must be something in the air today: i was just looking at tao9 and thinking we don't see this kind of sloganistic dumb-assery all that often anymore and then here comes paulb with a good old-fashioned takedown of the kind in which he used to specialize when we did see tao9-like ravings more often.

to which i can only add that i agree with paulb's conclusion: we need reminders of the latest work product from propaganda u.

ok, i suppose i should pile on tao9 after all: you can prove to us, my sweet, that you opposed the bush tax cuts, opposed the bush medicare d expansion, and especially opposed fighting the iraq and afghani incursions as emergency appropriations without taxes to pay for them, can't you? you must be able to, or else you wouldn't have the nerve to open your mouth about expenditures and absorption of capital and all the other terms you toss around with such exciting lack of understanding.

"I've long believed there's a greatness to American politics..".

Wow.

I've long believed that little but a violent and perverted dynamic defines American politics.

"I've long believed there's a greatness to American politics..".

the underlying principles of American politics:

a) everybody is self-absorbed scumbag

b) if you give all the scumbags a little power they'll keep anyone one of them from getting all the power.

Charlatans or fools? Nothing says that the two conditions are mutually exclusive.

PaulB: Two choices -- Read the bill or shut your ignorant, insulting, vulgar keyboard.

The Oregonian/July 20, 2009
"Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., said he, too, is pushing for an overhaul of how Medicare rates are calculated. But so far, the math isn't going Oregon's way.

"The health care bill written by House Democrats calls for $500 billion in Medicare cuts over 10 years to help offset the enormous cost of providing care to 45 million uninsured Americans. The Senate is also likely to slice deeply into Medicare to pay for its proposal.

"Yet a devastating assessment Thursday by Congress' independent budget office concluded that those cuts aren't deep enough. Another $116 billion in Medicare reductions are needed to pay for expanded coverage, the Congressional Budget Office said.

That would hurt Oregon, where Medicare spending already is relatively low. In 2006, Medicare reimbursements per member were $6,122 in Oregon compared to $9,564 in New York. That difference means Medicare pays hospitals in some states more than their costs for a hip replacement, heart bypass or other service, while hospitals in Oregon get on average about 90 percent of their costs for services."
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/07/health_care_reform_could_cut_m.html

PaulB: Two choices -- Read the bill or shut your ignorant, insulting, vulgar keyboard.

ROFL.... Dear heart, I have read the bill, which is why I know you're spouting wholly inaccurate partisan drivel. And even if I hadn't, you seem to have no trouble posting, despite the fact that you are guilty of far more "ignorant, insulting, vulgar" behavior than I. You are funny, though, so at least you're good for something.

What's being cut, dear, is the subsidies to private insurance. If the free market is as wonderful as folks like you pretend it is, then no such subsidies should be required, right? And you should have no objection to ending them, given your undoubted issues with deficits.

"I've long believed that there's a greatness to American politics." That sentence really brought me up short. I neither believed that in the past nor do I now.