you left out bribery.

How many nay votes are there right now on the public option sans trigger? We're now talking about simple majority, correct?

bkny, @ 14:58,

He did not; what else is "deal-making" if not a euphemism for "bribery"?

But I'm less sanguine than Steve is about the center-left Dems nixing the whole bill because it's the 5th rinse-water of what it ought to have been. The pressure is going to be immense "what, you're gonna let the bill die, blow our one chance of reform in umpteen years, just because you have to give up 80% of your wish list?"

Whoop-de fucking doo.
god I hate the Senate.
Thanks harry

So essentially there's no agreement, and the sixty votes still aren't there for all real intents and purposes. What a waste of time.

How many nay votes are there right now on the public option sans trigger? We're now talking about simple majority, correct?

On the bill, yes. On the motion to end debate and proceed to a vote on the bill proper, who knows. There's at least one more filibuster ahead.

Either of these two excrescences may vote against cloture on the other side of the debate that will shortly commence, never mind voting against cloture on the inevitable motion to approve the conference committee report.

In all actuality after debate begins tonight, Harry Reid will have all the power in the world. The one thing that would have been a problem is if debate never started but now Reid can effectively tell those three bought and paid for Democrats that after its all said and done he is going to keep the public option in and if they don't like it they will have to stand up and be counted as killing health care reform as a Democrat. Basically they might as well switch parties because they will have effectively committed political suicide. And as soon as debate starts the White House should come out strong and say that any Democrat can disagree with the bill but what they can't do is hold up an up and down vote for a principle their party has been working for for over 40 years.

Now I am not saying Harry Reid and Pres Obama will handle it that way. I am just saying if they did they would take all power away from Nelson, Landreiu and Lincoln leaving only that asshole Lieberman to deal with and everyone knows what I think should be done in that case. Threaten to take his gavel. Even the Republicans can't offer him a chairmanship nor anything close and he doesn't want tomove to the back of the line like Specter did.

And don't forget reconciliation. Any bill the Senate passes has to be reconciled with the House bill, which DOES include the public option, and reconciliation can be an up-or-down vote.

Whatever happened to reconciliation, or whatever they called the 'regular majority' process. Did the dems give that up because the rethugs said they would call them poopy-heads??

The only trigger I could remotely support would be for those who opt out initially. States who want a PO should get one.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The public option, apart from a trigger, is dead.

Harry went into this with the Opt-Out as a grand start to the debate. It keeps the liberals in check, and doesn't totally piss off the conservadems.

The strategy is to bargain it away for the Carper/Collins amendment. A trigger, while milquetoast, will likely get enough liberal and conservative support (with Snowe and Collins voting for it) to pass through the sausage factory known as the Senate.

The first thing I though, seeing Lincoln and Landrieu on board is it is now time for Lieberman to jump ship. Or, as he probably calls it, his "time to shine."

He did not; what else is "deal-making" if not a euphemism for "bribery"?

i'd just rather call it straight up what it is... 'deal-making' is far too polite a term.

i really, really do not care for landrieu. i will never forget her katrina appearance on cnn kissing the bushies asses for all they had done for the citizens of new orleans -- until anderson cooper(!) informed her that bodies were being eaten by rats on the streets of her fair city. she barely blinked an eye.

and, of course, not to mention that her professed reason for holding out was the debt -- which funnily doesn't seem to matter once she got a $100 million promise from uncle harry.

ugh.

A "triggered" PO is no PO at all. j It stops the gov. from opening the door to involvement now or in the future...I mean after all, how many triggers have to be pulled before Landrieu will admit that is why we are are this stage already...why reform has become so absolutely necessary.

That said, let Landrieu vote against the final bill while allowing all other senators to vote as they see fit...but there is no excuse for blocking a final vote on the bill simply because it doesn't have everything she wanted. That is not democracy. Let them vote.

btw...I still believe president Rahm Emanuel's Obama already bargained the PO away which is why they wanted the trigger and got so angry when Reid went with the opt out plan. Problem is Rahm can't guarantee absolutely to give priv. ins. the trigger option....which we all know the trigger option is no PO at all and stops the gov. from getting their foot in the door of the ins industry to keep prices down and later ...could expand to single payer (oh my God no). Note how quietly Rahm Obama have been pressuring senators for a robust PO.

The left should kill this bill. It's the only way they'll get respect. Assuming they want any.

bleh @3:47 has got the goods on the goods. This has been pretty obviously since the moment the House bill passed. When the two bills get reconciled the public option will be part of the bill because...

Reid wants it in.
Pelosi wants it in.
The House voted it in.
The President wants it in.
And the public wants it in.

And so it will be in the final bill.

The game for Reid is to massage these me-first egos and get as strong a bill as possible thru the supermajority choke point. He will do that. Because more than any other politician, Reid's very head is riding on the success of this bill.

Once the bill gets passed the supermajority choke point, Lincoln, Landrieu, and Lieberman, become obstacles to step over and step on. At that point in time, all their posturing will work against them: Reid, Pelosi, and the President will have the upper hand. And they will decide it there will be retributions against these three; or if instead, they must simply swallow their bile as they look ahead to cap-and-trade...

Without a PO then this reform bill is nothing more than an exchange bill....priv. ins. exchanges pre-existing, caps, etc for millions of new customers (most subsidized by tax dollars).

40yrs to get here?...well, maybe we'll have to wait till after the elections to get more dem senators and increase our majority to get HC reform that is real reform.

Maybe enough senators to go along with expanding Medicare's 'budget' so we could have Medicare for all...and since it is a 'budgetary' issue it could be passed via the reconciliation process which requires only 51 votes to pass and become law. And we could just say F*#k you to private ins and within 6mos have most of the population on Medicare and focus on fixing any of Medicare's problems. Hell, with that many people being covered we could even expand Medicare to cover dental...Just saying.

Anyone who says "kill the bill" is a fucking moron.

MORON.

Health care MUST PASS. It will strengthen Obama. If it fails, he's a one-termer, or becomes Clintonized. If it succeeds, he will be able to tackle financial reform next.

DON'T BE A TROLLISH MORON. THERE IS NO DO-OVER ON HEALTH CARE.

A Trigger Option is no longer a Public Option.

History tells us this plain and simple.

I think I will not watch this debate, because I've had enough. I can barely stomach keeping up with basic headlines...

Hey everyone...take good care of yourself and don't let the assholes get you down. Get out, take a hike,
play with your loved ones and let it go.

YES--agree that 'kill the bill' is stupid and clearly not the way to go..even a lackluster reform bill is better than none...and it may be a lot better..they're just all scardy cats now...they need some gentle prodding..they know change is needed...

This bill will honor so many Americans and so many legislators who have fought for decades for reform..think Kennedy..

This bill sends a message that change is needed and was implemented..think big picture here..think generations to come..change like this sometimes doesn't happen perfectly..it happens incrementally..not on the watch we have set in our minds..

Hold out hope..don't let your fears get in the way..it may end up being better than you think..remember that most of them do get some sort of change is needed..

Keep writing/calling all your senators and representatives and give em hell!

I do not understand Blanche Lincoln. Isn't Walmart in favor of a strong public option? They sure ought to be. Most of their employees the level of regional manager would benefit. If Walmart leaned on Blanche Lincoln heavily enough, she's either have to change or retire.

I have asked this elsewhere but I really don't understand what the point of negotiating a trigge at this point is supposed to be. The people who are arguing for a trigger will be just as happy with having no public option at all and the people who want a public option know that a trigger is meaningless and so do there constituents. So why even bother with the trigger? Is there anybody that actually wants a trigger or thinks it is any kind of a serious policy solution?

Pass the bill with a public option or don't but all of this trigger talk seems like meaningless wankery to me. Passing the bill without a public option will certainly piss of a considerable constituency but I doubt a single member of that constituency will be even slightly mollified by the existence of an entirely meaningless trigger. So why bother?

Y'all are so.... innocent.

In the immortal words of former Senator John Breux, who was once asked after he changed his mind on a piece of legislation if his vote was for sale: "No, it can't be bought. But it can be rented."

He was easily re-elected. Welcome to the NFL.

Well, cloture passed 60-39, so even Lieberman voted for it.

Not that it matters much, there are going to be plenty more opportunities to filibuster. But it's crossed one hurdle.

Er, the motion to proceed did, obviously. Sorry, getting ahead of myself...

"..keep the public option and the reform bill will likely die because center-right Dems won't accept it; compromise even more on the public option and the reform bill will likely die because center-left Dems won't accept it".

In either scenario, the democratic party will have committed suicide.

And should the vast majority of democratic senators suffer betrayal by a mere handful of their colleagues, the party will eminently deserve to die an ignominious death.

squiggleslash beat me to it. Just got a message from Durbin, that the clown car has agreed to end the debate on whether to allow debate... Watching grass grow and cold treacle flow is more entertaining (and definitely less stressful)

John B.: "I do not understand Blanche Lincoln."

Review the private health insurance industry in Arkansas. Reflect on the fact that BC/BS owns 75% of it.

Trigger on the public option only makes sense if its a strong public option. Telling the insurance companies to "stop making so much money or we'll offer an ineffective co-op in which you can also participate as well as subsidize" isn't much motivation for the private market to fix itself; even if it was possible for their to be a private market fix.

What about a reverse trigger? There will be a PO unless price increases are kept at inflation and and the number of uninsured is reduced by half- also the individual mandate does not kick in until the PO.

Thats not bad Raoul @10:01. Not bad at all.

It was puzzling that Snowe would not even vote to debate a bill she says she could support with a trigger. Perhaps it was an acknowledgement that she knows she has no leverage left- it is all a done deal now.

Now it is time for the citizens in Blanche Lincoln's state and Mary Landrieu's state to overwhelm them with visits, phone calls and emails for passage of the bill with the public option.
One thing that no-one seems to mention when the republicans whine about the cost of the bill is that if you take out the amount of the cost which will be profit to the insurance industry, make the public option stronger, you could cut the cost of the bill, that is how it is done overseas, no for profit healthcare.

The GOP Congress has indeed become the best Congress money can buy!

Saturday night's Senate Vote Just to have a debate on Healthcare, was a small victory for the "agents of change" (democrats) and reflects very poorly on the state and mindset of the Party of No & Fear that they stood solid and refused to even allow a debate on this issue to move forward -- thereby belying the title of being the greatest deliberative body on earth!

It is also noteworthy, that the Party of No & Fear, also fought against Social Security Reform and Medicare, and true to form or color, they are fighting against healthcare reform today!

In this Age of Aquarius the age of Brotherhood, humanity must be taught that "As money has in the past ministered to personal and family need, so in the future it must minister to group and world need. The time has now come when money must be re-valued and its usefulness channelled into new directions. The voice of the people must prevail, but it must be a people educated in the true values, in the significance of a right culture, and in the need for right human relations. It is therefore essentially a question of right education and correct training in world citizenship - a thing that has not yet been undertaken." [Money, The Medium of Loving Distribution, A Compilation from the books of Alice A Bailey ]

Thank God for the Agents of Change whose intentions are to uplift people and to serve the people...., because in all reality we really do need Change for Science teaches us that to be static and to do nothing, is to die!