If my general understanding of how long it's going to take to stop climate change (much less turn it around) is correct, Utah skiing is over - it's just a question of when. The elected representatives of the people of Utah ought to be more concerned over the cost of fresh water than tourism revenue.

The more I read, the more I conclude that America is a country made entirely out of garbage with a populace of human garbage, so why should I have any hope that anything can help?

Whenever arguing with a righty about the reality of climate change, I always ask these questions:

What if you're wrong? What if the scientists are right and we are fast approaching the point of no return in which our species survival is in serious danger? What is the basis of your opposition? Is it simply a liberal/conservative issue to you? Are you really that concerned about corporate profits over protecting our ability to survive? Don't you think its smart to err on the side of caution?

I'd love to see more people ask these questions of the deniers.

The post above could easily substitute the word republicans for climate change .

The hell with it. It's all going down in flames, so build out America with even more car-dependent burbs and water-adjacent burbs that will get screwed in the climate future because Americans are garbage and that's what they deserve.

You know that all around relief you feel when you hit something ? That is almost as satisfying as generalising that entire countries and the locals are not quite as good as yourself , or even as "Human" . Ahh ! The slurs that never quit pleasing , sweet .

citizen_pain
The chances are that the only point at which you or I will hear those questions asked , are when you or I pose them . The domination of every facet of mass media in a hierarchy of rich villager toys and puppets of a few plutocratic sociopaths will still any non compliant waves .

I think they're not so much denialists, ultimately, as bullshitters and free riders. As long as they're getting votes and graft by posturing about liberal environmentalists, they'll keep doing so, secure in the knowledge that the adults will fix things for them -- and take the political heat for any discomfort the fixes entail.

The "education" that organizations like POWDR need to engage in isn't about climate change, it's "You won't see another cent from our members or anyone who comes to our resorts until you clean up your act." But I bet the business owners don't have the courage for that. They're also looking for adults to do the dirty work.

citizen_pain: "What if you're wrong? What if the scientists are right and we are fast approaching the point of no return in which our species survival is in serious danger?"

I had occasion to ask a conservative that very question recently. His response is just going to embolden xor to dump all Americans on the garbage heap, even those of us who have been worrying about this forever.

He was mostly fixated on something that he found amusing, that here was an area in which liberals were opposed to change, and conservatives welcomed it. He seemed to think that he had scored a point for the Conservatives. When I pushed the species survival point, he responded more or less that "Humans haven't always been on earth. Think of the dinosaurs! Why shouldn't the human species die out, too!"

I was as dumbfounded as dismayed. This particular individual is an atheist so it isn't that he believes in the Second Coming. Maybe it is just that he is 70 and doesn't have grandchildren. He has a comfortable life and isn't going to live long enough to be affected; why should he support change? The irony is that he recently bought a place in Colorado because he loves skiing so much.

Google "Climategate".

The right has a new crutch for their denialism.

There is no amount of evidence you could ever muster that would budge them from their denial now that they have this argument.

You will never be able to have an argument with them again, because they will trot out "Climategate" and the argument will be over.

Don't be silly. Oil trumps skiing. CO is full of whiners who can kiss Utah's tar shale stained ass. This, (below), is a bit dated but the oil shale hasn't gone anywhere and Utahns must surely look enviously at the folks up in Alberta who are squeezing "golden" oil from stone and taking it to the bank despite what it does to the environment and despite how much energy is wasted in getting the stuff out.

Skiing was another baby boomer fueled industry anyway and was going down regardless. And those skiers are outsiders coming to the determinedly closed mormon state. Wouldn't it be cool if instead of depending on an industry that required the coddling of non believing skiers to make some cash, the state could just turn completely to it's extractive industries and close the borders and keep all of it's mining/drilling money for itself and tell the skiers and everybody else to f-off.

Climate change legislation is a pain in the ass and keeps Utah from reaching it's full potential as a thoroughly drilled and strip mined state. CO needs to mind it's own damn business.

Via the Utah History Encyclopedia:

http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/p/PETROLEUM.html

While the state's contribution to the amount of oil produced in the United States has remained relatively minor, the petroleum industry has become one of Utah's significant commercial enterprises.

The future of Utah's petroleum industry may be found in the extensive oil-shale and tar-sand reserves located in the eastern half of the state. Utah's oil-shale reserves are estimated at several trillion barrels, with the richest deposits located in the Uinta Basin, where 90 to 115 billion barrels are contained in deposits that have the potential to yield twenty-five or more gallons per ton. Tar-sand, or oil-impregnated rock, is located in more than fifty deposits stretching from the Uinta Basin south into San Juan and Garfield counties. Utah's tar-sand deposits contain an estimated 23 to 29 billion barrels.

Beginning in 1970, the United States Department of the Interior started several programs to stimulate oil-shale and tar-sand development; however, commercial extraction of petroleum from oil-shale and tar-sand at this time remains a potential rather than a reality.

What we've seen a lot of here in Utah recently has been the increase in influence of outfitters and other environment-related industries—in large part due to the many huge national parks and the tourism dollars they bring to the state. While oil-shale and coal have been and continue to be significant players in the local economy, the past decade has seen an incredible jump in the power of these concerns in the state.

These competing interests have made things more interesting and certainly played a part in Governor Huntsman's more "green" attitudes in the state. Herbert has always been fairly conservative, a bit old-school, and is only Governor because Huntsman left, so it's hard to gauge anything from his political posturing. Hatch and Bennett are both long-serving Senators, and they are much more in tune with their party than local interests.

I don't think people are realizing how serious this isssue is. Take for example the ski resorts in Utah, they make over a billion dollars every year. With the temperatures rising, the ski season is becoming shorter and shorter. With a shorter ski season, less money is made. Not only would this mean the ski resorts make less money, but jobs would also be lost. It is estimated that in 2009 2 million US jobs will be lost each month. With the shape the ecomomy is in right now, losing more jobs is something that we as americans can't afford.

You are not claiming, I hope, that global warming will put an end to snow as we know it. The snow will fall somewhere else, probably a little farther north or a little higher up, and the skiers can fly(!) and drive(!) there instead of to Snowbird.

Hey, pessimists and haters above, like Xor: if you really believe what you say, why do you bother? Do you actually think you're convincing people? If so, you're as dumb as the deniers.

Just go away and leave the fighting for progress to people who care and can make a difference. You're pathetic.

xor,

what a piece of work you are. i don't know when garbage pickup is scheduled in your neighborhood, but i suggest which ever day it is you set yourself out by the curb.

A few clarifications.

1. A large number of people visit Utah in the summer, mostly the national parks.

2. Climate change in Utah would likely impact the people who live here much more than the skiing industry. We have already had some changes in precip. mix [more rain, less snow], more dust, more pollution, and the predictions are for changes in water supply for the residents. Thus, the head in sand approach of our gov. is much more crazy, as the impacts are going to be local, and personal.

I wouldn't leap to the conclusion global warming will harm Rocky Mountain skiing. It might make it better. There's always plenty of cold in the high mountains, but there isn't always plenty of precipitation. I believe some climate models show more snow in certain areas due to global warming; perhaps in Utah too.

Way back in the 70s one theory about the ice ages was that the planet was actually a little warmer during those periods, that the real reason for ice sheets covering Canada and northern Europe was the enormous snowfall during the winter months, so much that it all wouldn't melt away during the warm months.

If we lose the northern ice cap due to global warming I half expect the new open ocean to our north to add significant snowfall onto northern latitudes. I think many people should expect more winter thanks to global warming.

You are not claiming, I hope, that global warming will put an end to snow as we know it. The snow will fall somewhere else, probably a little farther north or a little higher up, and the skiers can fly(!) and drive(!) there instead of to Snowbird.

Yes, everyone can just ski in Whistler instead. Though while this will be good news for Canada, you'd think that it might be of some concern to Americans.

Of course, the bonus is that if you fall and break your leg while skiiing in Canada, the Canadian health care system will take care of it, while if you injure yourself in America, you're pretty much out of pocket. So there is some upside....

Regardless of what happens to the Rocky Mountain ski industry, we skiiers who live in the DC area can already see that the Pennsylvania and other mid-Atlantic ski resorts are very much on the ropes. Most of the last eight or nine seasons have been terrible. Little or no natural snow and temperatures too warm for snow making. It's not unusual for most of January to pass with hardly a night of sub-freezing temperatures.

No snow pack in the winter means no water in the summer.
It also means devastating floods in the winter, drought in the summer.