* Is Olympia Snowe's vote on health care in play? As of this afternoon, she still has "misgivings."

Up next: Senator Snowe holds press conference to state that she thinks the jury is still out on Sliced Bread.

It's a bloody miracle electrification took place in Maine.

"Kevin Drum thinks the remaining health plan is actually quite good"

Yes, everybody gets the privilege of being forced to being ripped-off by the health insurance companies.

What’s not to like ?

"this is more than Bill Clinton ever did, more than Teddy Kennedy did, more than LBJ did, more than Truman did, and more than FDR did"

Under the current circumstances, they would all be HORRIFIED by this bill, although I imagine President Clinton would be too diplomatic to say so in public.

Howard Dean is saying to dump the health care plan.
I am on board with Dr. Dean, who has been out in front of this issue all along.

C'mon dude, whatever happened to Cash for Appliances? Baby needs a new frij!

Breezeblock,

It's coming. Seriously, I work on an account which has already completed the campaign, it's just going to be a little slow to rollout, as different states have different timeframes, but it's going to start within a month or so.

I am SO confused...

My serious concern is all the loop-holes that are there with pre-existing conditions..Someone on the Ed show just confirmed this would absolutely be exploited..for example employees with diabetes or overweight will not be denied health coverage but will instead be charged twice as much as their colleagues...because there are no limits on what they can charge....

And then there is the requirement that everyone be insured, yet what they have to choose from is meager and there is just not the competition there...

Suddenly Ed Shults is saying hold the fort after all his shows riling folks up..I don't get it...

The Union Reps are furious..as is Arianna Huffington..

and yet....

Joan Walsh is now saying she's not ready to go there.."Let's fight in conference committee..Let's
fight to the death" and she says there is a nihilism on the left that scares her..that Arianna Huffingtons' position (she also wants to kill it all) reminds her of Nadar like reaction.

She agrees that Joe Lieberman is despicable and is a petty man, but is not willing to say kill this..

Joan Walsh might be the most clear-headed person I've heard from today.

So I guess we get it into conference committee and then fight for what we can (?).

Wow..reality sucks.

Rahm Emmanuel needs to be fired. I blame him for Obama's tepid performance and toothless performance on a range of important issues. Rahm has had a terrible year and his continued service will just make it more likely the Obama himself will lose a primary. I would like Howard Dean to step into the job. Or take on Obama for 2012. I also want to see primary challenges for every DINO in the lot.
Progressivism itself is moderate liberalism. Who will support the people if progressives don't? So far, the answer to that question is Joe Lieberman to block. This year has started to radicalize me.

Rahm Emmanuel needs to be fired. I blame him for Obama's tepid performance and toothless performance on a range of important issues.

Sparko, I love you, man, but blame Obama for Obama's performance. I don't get my fellow lefties' propensity for assigning ginormous powers to Emanuel. He has a lot of influence, yes, much more than any other COS in memory than Haldeman, but he's not some eminence grise running the administration. We can safely presume that he is doing what Obama is asking him to do.

Shortstop: you are right as always. But firing Emmanuel and hiring Dean would make me forget about how angry I was most of the year. . .

Shortstop: you are right as always

Whoa, now! Let's not get carried away!

I do feel your pain. I'm really angry, too. Really angry. At a lot of our elected representatives and their staffs in both the legislative and executive branches. Judiciary better not cross me tonight, that's all I'm sayin'.

Insanity said:
So I guess we get it into conference committee and then fight for what we can (?).

If what comes out of the conference committee is different from what the Senate passes, then they'd need to scrape up 60 votes again for another cloture vote.

But supporters of passing anything keep saying that we can fix things later. How will that work? If Democrats concede that from now on anything substantial will require 60 votes to pass the Senate, then how will Democrats pass improvements in years to come?

If the new law has problems -- like people being forced to buy insurance with copayments so large that they can't use it, or premiums for everyone else going through the ceiling -- how will that get fixed? Will the Republicans suddenly grow a collective conscience? That's about as likely as Democrats growing a collective spine. And with Obama planning to claim credit for passing such a wonderful bill, any problems will be taken out on Democratic candidates, leaving the Democrats with smaller majorities after 2010 and 2012.

I hope someone can tell me exactly how a smaller Democratic majority will be able to pass something they can't pass now.

We are on the verge of a multi-party system I'm afraid. Moderate Democrats lean so far right--encouraged by the corporate media--that we have effectively three parties on the left. Throw in Tea Baggers, Nuts and nigh-extinct moderate Rs, and we have six parties already. And no useful coalition!

It was Obama himself who repeatedly stated that he was open to "something else" instead of the Public Option, as long as it provided the same cost containment and competition, as was delineated by the CBO.

Where is that competition and cost containment in what remains of the bill ?

Steve T...I don't know but read what Kevin Drum and Ezra Klein are saying...they seem to think it's worthwhile, as crummy as it is and as furious as we are from where we started...they seem to think a medicare early option or the like could be added on later If...If , if , if...

And they think what's there is at least a place from which to start the conversation, if nothing else.

I was listening to Randy Rhodes (subbing by someone, name not remembered) and the topic was Lieberman and how Obama lets the creepy guy jerk him around. Well, Obama leaves somethings to be desired but remember he has to work with the effective requirement of 60 Senate votes to get things passed. I think Dems could do more to change that, but sadly it's what Obama has to work with. Just to keep in mind.

Steve: "Is Olympia Snowe's vote on health care in play? As of this afternoon, she still has 'misgivings.'"

Oh, puh-leeezzze, Steve, who cares? The Senate Democratic Leadership has managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and convert the health care reform bill into the Insurance and Pharmaceutical Windfall Act of 2009.

Sen. Snowe can sit on the fat end of an aluminum baseball bat left outside in Maine's elements and happily slide up and down while Harry Reid holds it upright, for all I care.

Breezeblock "C'mon dude, whatever happened to Cash for Appliances? Baby needs a new frij!"

Well, how about a "Cash for Bimbos" program? This baby needs a new sugar daddy!

Why are people calling mandates an expansion of health care? Forcing people to buy insurance when that's not going lower costs is political suicide.

No cheap medications for me and thee... God forbid we should re-import from such reckless countries as Canada, Germany, UK or France, who absolutely do not give a damn about their citizens consuming unproven nostrums (nostra?)... The vote, peculiarly enough, was all over the political spectrum; the bill could have been a truly bipartisan one, had not 30 Dems been tenderly worried about the PhRMA's profits. There goes one avenue of cost containment...
http://washingtonindependent.com/71047/senate-dems-protect-big-pharma

Kevin Drum thinks the remaining health plan is actually quite good...

And he goes on to explain what he believes is worth saving in the proposed legislation that we'll be giving up if we give up on it.

Drum also makes a persuasive argument that this is a once in a generation oportunity to get something meaningful done on health care. There are plenty of political reasons for passing this bill, but the most important reason is that it will make a real difference in many peoples lives.

Really, if the loopholes and what-not in the bill are as hideous as a lot of people are saying, pass the damn thing and go full blitz on the insurance companies when they start exploiting them. Right in the middle of the 2010 campaign season.

Meanwhile, work up a reconciliation version of either the medicare option or the public option and keep the Rethugs braying and whining about it while the other legislation works its way through congress. It's not like they can get even MORE snippy and obstructionist. Keep 'em boiling so they make the voters good and sick of 'em.

Drum, Klein, et. al, are saying we got a field goal instead of a touchdown and we're receiving the second half kick-off right after the Christmas break.

Really, if the loopholes and what-not in the bill are as hideous as a lot of people are saying, pass the damn thing and go full blitz on the insurance companies when they start exploiting them. Right in the middle of the 2010 campaign season.

I could be wrong about this, but scalding insurance companies who are taking full advantage of a health insurance bill passed by a Democratic congress doesn't strike me as a winning campaign strategy.

Really, if the loopholes and what-not in the bill are as hideous as a lot of people are saying, pass the damn thing and go full blitz on the insurance companies when they start exploiting them. Right in the middle of the 2010 campaign season. -- Midland, @21:28

Hafta agree with dr. bloor (@21:37) on this one... If you put a platter holding your Christmas ham on the floor pf your dining room and then leave the door to that room open, you can't really blame your Doberman for treating himself to most of it (and trying to bury the rest behind the sewer pipe). However well trained he may be, the natural temptation is likely to overcome the training. And the insurance companies aren't even well trained to begin with...

Remember, it's Obama's n-dimensional chess playing super skills that have brought you this health care reform bill.

Don't you ever forget how great Obama is.

exlibra: "And the insurance companies aren't even well trained to begin with ..."

Not "well-trained to begin with"? Christ, they're not even housebroken ...

Having a tough time seeing how Obama is responsible for Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, et al, or what magical thing Obama could've done differently to get us to a different place. I think that's wishful thinking.

The old hem hawer Drum decides after hem hawing to do what 7 high Rahm commands and approve compulsory subsidies of the insurance industry?

I am shocked! Why this is the type of laziness that passes for deliberation that would lead one to support a war on false pretenses even when the evidence is all around, but that is a hew hawing democrat for you.

Lieberman has a right to gloat with so many geniuese serving him.

The issue is no longer Obama's success it is whether he is going to destroy the ability to oppose right wing nuts taking control of the Federal State. Be very afraid in 2012 and 2016. The WH is destroying the democrats in order to pursue a demented view of bipartisanship, apparently as a result of the "liberalism" of the faithless who truly have no faith for We the People.

AK,

"Drum also makes a persuasive argument that this is a once in a generation oportunity to get something meaningful done on health care."

And the "something meaningful" would be what ?

* The retention of the caps on policies so that Americans can continue to go bankrupt even though they have healthcare coverage ?

* The retention of the inability of Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices ?

* No cost containment, so that premiums continue to skyrocket ?

* No competition, so the insurance companies can continue to price-gouge consumers ?

Shall I play for you, pa rum pum pum pum, On my drum?

Drum: This is more than Bill Clinton ever did, more than Teddy Kennedy did, more than LBJ did, more than Truman did, and more than FDR did.

Righto. And doctors made house calls back then too...
Don't get me wrong: Drum is right. But not because of his flawed logic comparing today's sour apples to yesterday's sweet lemons. Drum is right because nothing matters more than winning the presidency again in 2012. By my social barometer that has a better chance of happening with this legislation becoming law.

If this bill flames out the media will utterly ballyhoo, bray, and brand it as epic fail. We know the way those monsters work. And the Republicans will scream victory for their agenda of nihilism. And reality will be time-shifted more to the right...

Nope. We can't let that happen.
Consider all that to be my minor point, serving only to accentuate Drum's major point:

When big legislative efforts go down in flames, they almost never spring back onto the calendar anytime soon — and that's especially true when big healthcare bills fail. It didn't happen in 1936, it didn't happen in 1949, it didn't happen in 1974, and it didn't happen in 1995. What makes anyone think it will happen in 2010?

He is right. And I am right.
Pass this damn thing.
It represents a time-shift to the left...
We need that.
Desperately.

"we got a field goal instead of a touchdown and we're receiving the second half kick-off..." - Midland

And to continue a good analogy, the other side's got nothing.

on c-span this morning
the question was

who do you admire
in an american politician ?

one call in said 'ron white'
the redneck comic

i'm watching him now
and that caller might
have a good argument

p.s.
please recall
joe lieberman

Honestly, what's the point of a health care bill without a public option? It is truly pointless, and actually awful.

We'll now all be forced by the government to buy health plans from private, crappy HMOs whether we like it or not.

Thanks, government! For nothing.

Joe Friday, since you did not click the link, here's the bullets from Kevin Drums post:

"But if it passes, here's what we get:

*Insurers have to take all comers. They can't turn you down for a preexisting condition or cut you off after you get sick.

*Community rating. Within a few broad classes, everyone gets charged the same amount for insurance.

*Individual mandate. I know a lot of liberals hate this, but how is it different from a tax? And its purpose is sound: it keeps the insurance pool broad and insurance rates down.

*A significant expansion of Medicaid.

*Subsidies for low and middle income workers that keeps premium costs under 10% of income.

*Limits on ER charges to low-income uninsured emergency patients.

*Caps on out-of-pocket expenses.

*A broad range of cost-containment measures.

*A dedicated revenue stream to support all this."

Jeezus, it might not be single-payer, but it sounds like the sort of thing we should be supporting instead of compaining about. Do we want to help people or punish insurance companies? Sorry, but we don't get to do both.

So, AK Liberal, if you're say, scraping by, earning a middle class salary, then you're screwed if this bill passes.

We're going to be *forced* by the government (at gunpoint? wage garnishment? public stockade?) to hand over a large portion of our salaries to private corporations. And you can bet those costs will increase year over year.

Honestly, not even country club Republicans would think up something this awful.

This bill just turned into the "Health Insurance Company Assistance Program".

If this bill passes, not only am I not voting Dem again in 2010-2012, but I'll refuse to pay the insurance companies according to a government mandate. Come and get me, coppers!

as a dual national
i've spent some time
overseas

as long as you are employed,
unemployed or seeking assistance
you are covered

the only way to miss out
is not to sign up

when you leave the doctors
you flip them a few bucks
[75-125+] of which you get

75% back after paperwork
same with per script ions

no one is afraid to seek
medical help when needed

we've got a way to go
to catch up with the
civilized world

can it be free
probably not

can it be
reasonable

certainly

human nature
is a funny thing
but when push
comes to shove

most people would
choose to look out
for each [one?] other

i believe that is true
in this case also
they [we] just can't
seem to get it straight

as i wrote our # 1

'two things in life
should be free of profit
one is education
the other health-care'

'i know you
can do it
make it so'

I would say she should represent her voters, her conscience and the American People. We are finding out that our congressmen and women are privy to a lot more information than the American public is getting. She has a duty to protect us from things that will cause us harm. I wish she had not trusted the lead Democrats who frequently lie and misrepresent things to manipulate others into giving them what they want. I feel she was manipulated into voting for the first plan based on the belief that a public health option would not be a part. She saw how some quickly misled her and lied to her just as they are to the American Public. They are making it very difficult to vote for any of them again. Blanch Lincoln, Mark Pryor etc. are getting brave and strong enough to not vote party line. It is not about a party. It is about what is best for all of us. If congress was proud of what they are writing, they would not be afraid to make it public and they would make it understandable. I am a democrat but a very disappointed one.

valentines day presents

AK,

"Insurers have to take all comers. They can't turn you down for a preexisting condition or cut you off after you get sick."

Except they can charge you premiums out the wazoo. What good is it if you can't afford it ?

"Community rating. Within a few broad classes, everyone gets charged the same amount for insurance."

Gibberish.

"Individual mandate. I know a lot of liberals hate this, but how is it different from a tax? And its purpose is sound: it keeps the insurance pool broad and insurance rates down."

NO, it doesn't.

There is NOTHING in the bill to keep premiums down.

"Subsidies for low and middle income workers that keeps premium costs under 10% of income."

Which will never keep up with skyrocketing premiums, meaning you will once again have a rising level of uninsured because people will be unable to pay the premiums but only the penalty.

"Caps on out-of-pocket expenses"

Nope.

This was taken out. No caps on policies. You can STILL go bankrupt.

"A broad range of cost-containment measures"

Where ?

The CBO stated it was the PUBLIC OPTION that was the cost-containment engine in the bill. It's gone.

"A dedicated revenue stream to support all this."

Yes, a "dedicated revenue stream to" THE HEALTH INSURANCE CORPORATIONS because the federal government will MANDATE everyone has the privilege of purchasing overpriced policies and being price-gouged by the for-profit private-sector health insurance corporations.

Whoopee !

Does community rating mean no more medical underwriting? That would mean they can't effectively deny you by charging you higher rates due to pre existing conditions, right?

I also want to know if the bill still has the provision of a 90% floor on medical losses (effectively capping profits).

If individual mandate is paired with guaranteed issue without medical underwriting, with subsidies for low income, and insurance co. profits are subject to limits, then it sounds similar in form to the Swiss system, which is something I could support. (In the Swiss system, ins. cos. aren't allowed to make any profit at all on basic plans.) If lacking any of those elements however, I definitely would not support it.

Settle for a basic, unsatisfactory bill now? Improve it with future, simpler bills on which reconciliation is more feasible?

Of COURSE AARP is for the Senate bill. They were for Part D, too.

They are first and foremost an insurance company that makes billions off these deals. Medicare Part D is the worst piece of legislation ever written!

I spit on the AARP and I hope anyone who is a member will tear up their cards and mail them in-- just as many did when Part D was passed.

They are two faced lobbying scum.

Kevin Drum is wildly off the mark. This bill will do more than LBJ did? What's he smoking?

"[T]his is still a huge achievement that will benefits tens of millions of people in very concrete ways

Yes, it will benefit tens of millions of people to the detriment of hundreds of millions of people.

Kill the effing bill.

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