I am just a citizen but at some point this endless inch by inch negotiation process where each belch is reported as the time for the waiter to bring the check is simply becoming nauseating. I have lost faith in the ability of politicians at any level to do anything but posture and play a game. I am beginning to understand why people in our country no longer participate in the political process

I listened to an interview on NPR yesterday. The Catholic Bishops really want health care reform. If the Senate bill's language really does "keep the purpose of the Hyde Amendment" look for Stupak and his supporters to declare victory and vote for the bill.

If the Senate were a business, it would have gone bankrupt years ago. It's mismanaged, ignores the wishes of it's "customers" and lines their own pockets with "profits" made from the "distributers" of the "products" it "sells".

Man, what a great thing to behold if it had a "Going Out Of Business Sale". "Everything Must Go!". I think I'd put a bid on one of those comfy chairs those nihilists sit on in their offices. That is sit on when they are there and not in some foreign country on a "fact finding" scheme. Now those are such a hill of bull crap that it's a wonder they have never been exposed for what they really are: Vacations paid for by you and me. Nauseating...

Stuart,

What has happened with health care is the normal give and take in any democracy with the added problem that one of the major parties has decided to remove itself froom the game and become the Party of NO. Party over all.

What has emerged is a third party calling itself the Blue Dogs. Not a catchy name, but a third paty none the less. The Blue Dogs have struck a deal with the Democrats.

Stuart Shiffman causes me to question what has really changed here -- how government works, or how the citizenry works.

Surely there have been plenty of eras where Washington did little, was ineffective, was frustrating, slow and ugly to watch. It was literally generations between the end of the Civil War and the Voting Rights and Civil Rights Acts providing specific implementation of day-to-day protections for the rights of minorities, for example. The adage equating legislation to sausage you don't want to see made was coined before my lifetime.

The difference was there was no media coverage. So we did not see "this endless inch by inch negotiation process where each belch is reported as the time for the waiter to bring the check." And without media saturation -- multiple TVs in every home, 500 channels, the internet, ubiquitous radio -- we had no expectation of knowing until sometime after really big news was made.

I think the upshot of the new coverage is both the revultion at the sausage making, but more problematic (and less defensible) a complete lack of perspective and patience on behalf of the body politic. Like any good entertainment, the plot should be resolved by the end of the hour (less 16 minutes of commercial breaks). The action should move swiftly and dramatically - we should be able to cut from speaker to speaker with Miami Vice cinematography. And if Jack Bauer can do the impossible, reality notwithstanding, why can't our leaders do the same?

I certainly don't think politics or politicians are perfect, and surely we are at low tide in that regard. But I don't envy them what they have to work with in the ADHD world of post-Raygun, where everyone firmly believes you can cut taxes, increase services, and deficits are bad, where the public expects pretty lies over real results, where empiricism is a synonym for despicable elitism, and where everyone is an instant critic with megaphones far larger than their knowledge base.

Yesterday, Maher was on Olbermann talking with Lawrence O'Donnell. He was very critical of Obama and his administration not leading with the argument of Single Payer cutting costs for the individual and health care. He was, also, critical of them not pushing the Public Option. He said they missed a strong moral argument by not framing this discussion early on. He added that this current bill is probably only a quarter of a loaf. Had he made the same argument on this site, or at Huffpo or Daily K, he would have been blasted as being a troll from the right.

Interestingly, Huffpo only put up his comments about Massa.

Without at least the public option I hope this bill goes down. Anybody who supports it is a DINO who needs to join the Republicans. Left is Left and the Right is Wrong and never the twain should meet.

A Blue Dog Democrat always wants one last concession right before the vote. I fully expect another round of potential "no" votes to surface in both the House and Senate of Democrats who will need something or another put in, or taken out. It is nauseating to watch, kind of like watching the ever-growing list of closing costs on the sale of house: the 'document fees', the "messaging fees' the 'miscellaneous duplication fees', the 'filing fees' etc.

There's no official list of members in Stupak's bloc, but Kildee was likely a member. Of course, Stupak can still kill health care reform with 11 votes instead of 12, but keep an eye on whether Kildee's pronouncement influences other member of the contingent.

Maddow had a pretty scathing take-down of Stupak last night, and suggested that the never-publicly-identified "Stupak Twelve" -- which started out as the "Stupak At-Least-Fifteen-to-Twenty" -- is most likely just the "Stupak Four-or-Five."

Par4 commented above:

Without at least the public option I hope this bill goes down. Anybody who supports it is a DINO who needs to join the Republicans.

Had he made the same argument on this site, or at Huffpo or Daily K, he would have been blasted as being a troll from the right.

Since many dozens of us have been making most of those arguments all along -- particularly as regards seizing/framing the message and the wisdom of starting negotiations from beyond where you think you'll end up -- I don't think so.

We are where we are now -- where we didn't have to be but where we are -- and the frustration you hear with people who want to kill the bill has to do with the uselessness of living in the past months...except as a very important cautionary tale for the next tough round of legislation.

zeitgeist, the change in media/information delivery is a big piece of the shift in voter expectations, but it's not all of it. I think we have a perfect storm of civic disengagement and unrealistic expectations that is fed by me-focused changes in social behavior -- that is to say, a movement away from "joining" things and community/organization involvement (someone did a fascinating paper on this a few years back) -- religiously and racially based cultural polarization, and consolidation of wealth and power that is perceived (correctly) as limiting the opportunities for citizen influence, among other things.

Of course, it's all interrelated: all of this is fed and exacerbated by the media, not just in the tilting of coverage rightward but in the emphasis on celebrity and sensationalism and the non-interactive nature of much media.

Good response, "Capisce".

Why is Bart Stupid still on the payroll and why are they even talking about the fecal matter he's tried to smear on the bill? Because it is already easily mistaken as toilet tissue? If I were Nancy Pelosi I'd have his balls in a binder. Men should not be determining what goes on with women's bodies, ever.

Just to add (hopefully) to what zeitgeist and shortstop have said. Anyone who has been involved in policy understands how difficult it is to do well. Many of the ideas in the respective Senate and House bills have been worked and re-worked for years by various experts in the field. No one knows exactly how this thing will work once it is implimented. As such, something of his magnitude takes time, more time then most citizens have the patience. The procedural hurdles faced by the Speaker are unprecedented. Given the Reupublican response, it is shocking that anything is moving at all. Hate her or not, if the Speaker pulls this off, she will go down as one of the great Speakers of the House, and I wouldn't bet against her getting this done. Finally, not to beat a dead horse, but Rush has gotten one thing right - the term "drive by media". Sure we need better civics education for all, but, we need a better media, print and screen. They now have a far greater impact on national discourse because of the saturation levels then ever before. While such power should normally be wielded with humility, instead we have a number of personalities with the intelligence and emotional temperment approaching a junior high debate club that are controlling the scope of the debate. That has got to change for the Country's sake.

"If the Senate were a business, it would have gone bankrupt years ago. It's mismanaged, ignores the wishes of it's "customers" and lines their own pockets with "profits" made from the "distributers" of the "products" it "sells"."

That describes every company I've ever worked for including a couple fortune 50 behemoths. The myth that the private sector is efficient or even sane is just that- myth.

Wow, I'm in complete agreement with Tlaloc for once.

Yes, I too have worked for Fortune 50 companies and I can back up what Tlaloc said. It is a myth that private enterprises are more efficient, there's nothing further from the truth.

Just take a look at insurance companies and Medicare. Insurance companies have twelve times the amount of paperwork and much higher costs than Medicare.

Rachel Maddow raised a point on Stupak last nite which blows Stupak's logic out of the water - if Stupak's argument is that if federal money passing through a person bans that person from buying abortion riders out of pocket, why add the language to just the health care bill? Following his logic, the law should say anyone on food stamps or unemplyment can also not buy the rider...

I'm guessing Dems aren't attacking Stupak because he doesn't have enough votes to block HCR.