My representative, David Price, has been a reliable supporter of HCR; and, announced his planned 'yes' vote yesterday. That does not stop me from calling other NC Democratic House members to remind them that I have sent contributions to them previously but will not do so again if they vote against this.

For any of those wanting to support healthcare reform, there is a group on Facebook named "Pass the Damn Bill!"

Join us to show your support.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=261496736325

The purity of our sacred republican theists is an untouchable , unspoken trust .
The only reliable purchase of purity from the democratic aisle is entrusted to far seeing Dennis Kucinich . Congressman Kucinich may not have the power to vouch for the souls condemned to a brief sojourn here amongst the living by his no vote , but he will have hastened their departure from the perch in his antiseptic aerie .
All hail the intolerance of the neo pilgrim puritan zealots .
Hip hip who ray

Send faxes and and get on the phone. Give these Democrats some backing so if they show a little backbone they'll know they're not committing political suicide. We are the change we've been waiting for and now is the time to stand up and be counted.

Steve is too wordy on this subject.

If you are in favor of HCR passing, CALL YOUR FUCKING REPRESENTATIVE, TODAY. Switchboard: (202) 224-3121.

Email counts for nothing. Call them today. Be polite, brief, and friendly -- those jobs are not fun.

"There is definitely more passion from people opposed to the bill," said Representative Jason Altmire of Pennsylvania, whose offices have been inundated with protests and calls. "I have to decide between passing this bill or doing nothing at all. I need to do what's best for my district."

The irrational and uninformed usually do speak with more passion because they are driven by pure emotion. Rep. Altmire would be best served by using his head and supposed expertise to do what is actually best for his constituents, not what they've been brainwashed into thinking.

I've called my senators and representatives. Again.

You should, too.

P the D B yet?

(click..)

Steve Benen wrote: "A once-in-a-generation opportunity is on the line ..."

I would love to know just how you know the outcome of the next six Presidential elections and the next twelve Congressional elections, such that you can say definitively what can and cannot happen during the next "generation".

I would also love to know how it is that there will be absolutely no possibility of enacting any significant health care legislation of any kind for another "generation", while you also assure us with equal certainty that major, sweeping changes can easily be made to remedy the major defects of the Senate bill in a short time after it is passed.

Calling my rep is useless. He is the dumbest person in Congress. I will be calling a conservative dem from my state. I might send a few posts today, but here are some thoughts, for whoever cares.... THe NPR piece on the endgame was pretty good.

1. To the liberals who don't think it is enough. WIse up, already. This blog, and many others, point out that MANY GOOD PROGRAMS START SMALLER. Social Sccurity. Medicate. Come on. We can see the finish line.

2. Conservative Dems in tight districts. Republicans WILL lie, misrepresent, and otherwise beat you up NO MATTER WHAT YOUR VOTE. YOU have a fighting CHANCE by VOTING YES - AND WINNING AND MAKING IT CLEAR WHY YOU VOTED FOR THIS. MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT THE DAMN BILL DOES FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE. Vote no, and allow the bill to be defeated, and dems will look weak, and you will be pounded on for - being weak byt repubs., but mostly by the mouthpiece tools of the right - Fox, etc... Trustme - I have heard in my district in the past few weeks what Orrin Hatch, The Heritage Fdn., etc says about ALL dems. It is ugly, mean, and vicious.
The repubs made this about power. Don't shy away. Grow a F***ing spine.

3. Power. WIn this, and you have more things to win. Lose this, and the meme will be you are losers at everyting. WIn this, and whatever your cause - Student aid reform, Fin. reform; budget reorm, etc. will be do able because YOU HAVE BUILT a case that DEMS CAN GOVERN in the Absence of any credible republican "thinking".

4. Abortion. Do NOT get me started. I HAVE READ various positions. DO NOT SUPPORT STUPAK. HE is NOT representing the bill correctly; Hell - he is not even representing his district correctly.

enough already.

Apologies for the typos. I will proof things in the future. I was mad.

bigutah wrote: "This blog, and many others, point out that MANY GOOD PROGRAMS START SMALLER. Social Sccurity. Medicate."

It's true that this and other blogs dishonestly claim that the Senate bill is like Social Security and Medicare.

The Senate bill is NOTHING like Social Security and Medicare.

Social Security and Medicare are -- and were from the start -- government-run nonprofit systems, under open, accountable, efficient public administration.

The Senate bill is the OPPOSITE of Social Security and Medicare. It entrenches and enshrines the for-profit insurance corporations as the foundation of the USA's health care system, and requires the taxpayers to guarantee and subsidize their profits.

In return for which, the Senate bill establishes some modest regulation of the for-profit insurance industry.

Now, enacting some much-needed regulation of the insurance corporations' worst, most heinous, most murderous abuses is not nothing -- though the price (guaranteeing insurance corporation profits) is high, and there is a risk of such regulations being rendered ineffective through corporate influence over the regulatory process.

If "sensible liberals" want to argue that real, comprehensive health care reform is not possible in today's environment of corporate dominance, and that the best we can hope for is to make a deal with the for-profit insurance corporations that they will "play nice" in return for guaranteeing their profits through the individual mandate (while putting single-payer, or a public option, or Medicare expansion off the table permanently), then fine. There is a case to be made for that.

But the claims that this is a "once in a generation opportunity" to create a publicly-administered, nonprofit system like Social Security or Medicare are dishonest and absurd.

1. thanks to secularanimal, you make GREAT points; keep up the good work *trying* to make the koolaid drunks see their desperation and hypocrisy are leading to a VERY flawed bill WHICH WILL NOT CORRECT the fundamental flaw of our healtcare system, but instead, will REWARD AND ENTRENCH THE PERPETRATORS (the health non-insurance industry)! ! !
2. i will repeat your VERY VALID POINT: WHY do we expect dem'rats to 'fix' a bill *LATER* (when THEY WILL be LESS powerful), when they won't stand up for the relevant principles NOW, when they have the support and votes ?
THAT DOES NOT MAKE RATIONAL OR POLITICAL SENSE...
3. again, how idiotic is it to keep repeating the 'conventional wisdom' that healthcare reform can only happen every 30-40 years ? ? ?
the VERY PEOPLE who have the power to FIX the shortcomings are saying it is impossible to fix NOW, *but* they will 'fix it' later ? ? ?
THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES IT IS REPEATED.
4. to the fools and tools who say that we *have* 'fixed' numerous other programs, etc over the years, i say this:
A. i bet there is a HUNDRED TIMES more laws/etc which are NOT 'FIXED', than there are bills/laws that have been 'fixed'...
B. said 'fixing' works both ways: we *MIGHT* get some crumbs, but the health insurance industry will take the cake...
C. the health (non) insurance industry WILL DOMINATE whatever panels, safeguards, etc that are emplaced... BET ON IT
D. these are the SAME dem'rats who are trying to 'fix' social security by privatization (um, isn't that a rethug holy grail ?), and you trust THESE douchebags to 'fix' the healthcare bill at some unknown time in the future ? ? ?
you baby-citizens *were* born yesterday, weren't you ? ? ?
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
artguerrilla@windstream.net
eof

Calling my rep is useless. He is the dumbest person in Congress

Well, now we need to know who he is so we can have a lusty, protracted argument about whose congressperson is the stupidest. I'm one of the lucky few with a decently progressive and intelligent rep, but I'll help pile on yours if you like.

shortstop:

Rob Bishop, R., Utah 1st.

I have called my rep and senators so many times I am on a first name basis with their staff. People, who complain about an enthusiasm gap, have to remember we, the people, have been asked to call millions of times during the past year and a quarter and its getting very old!

SecularAnimist, art guerilla -

Are you nihilists? Is nothing less than perfect worth doing? Did you not notice that the GOP has filibustered more votes this year than they have in many decades? There is no do-over on this battle. 1994 ended health care reform discussion until now. What magical fairy dust do we have that will make the public option acceptable in our actual, real, existing path to create law? Because I just don't see it.

Or, are you paid trolls, disingenously repeating these arguments that have been disproven repeatedly? The GOP and the insurance industry are fighting against this bill, because they know it will ultimately be popular and impossible to repeal in bulk. If you're a troll, shame on you. You could clean bathrooms with more honor.

For the record, I personally want a 100% public option, and I want much of the health insurance industry to be aggressively audited for their multifaceted crimes. I think it is no exaggeration to say that they deliberately and consciously profit from the sick and dying, and they create worse health care for nearly everyone.

And yet, and yet, the health care reform bill is the right one to pass, right now. Pass the damn bill.

bigutah: ooooh. My sympathies.

If the bill passes, will it be Jim DeMint's waterloo?

Secular, if you've got Art on your side, who could possibly be agin' you?

Steve and others have made lots of good points about why it is imperative to get HCR through now. It doesn't take a prognosticator to look at the last few decades and see that, when HCR dies, it dies for years. Meanwhile, when important legislation does get through, even in a less than desirable form [as the current HCR bills most certainly are], it can and does often lead to more sweeping reform down the road.

A national health plan is no more likely in the next fifty years than ridding our country of handguns is. And for the same reason. Forces far more powerful than the will of the people are at work insuring that the sanctity of profitability will be upheld. Your dream of an America that suddenly embraces pure socialism is no more plausible than my dream of an America that is run by Atheists.

However, regulations that eliminate pre-exiting conditions, help control premium costs, and provide some sort of help to the nation's uninsured are a step in the right direction. A first step. This is how our country works. The process is slow and ugly. Here's your sausage factory. For better or for worse.

Scrapping the whole health care reform initiative because it doesn't accomplish everything some people want is as unrealistic as ripping up the Constitution in 1787 because it didn't free the slaves. There were men there that wanted to do it. But it didn't happen. Not perfect. But a start.

Make no mistake. It's good to question our leaders. Look what happens when we don't: We are at war in Iraq because the Republicans never once questioned their president. We are in a debt death spiral because the Republicans are in lockstep on tax cuts, military spending, corporatist cronyism, and abject greed.

But for once pretend that you're a Republican and that Barack Obama is one too. And pretend that the HCR bills are Republican initiatives. Listen to Rush Limbaugh say how we must get HCR through or America will die! Be one of those guys that just goes along with what your party is trying to do. And maybe this time some good will come of it.

Rathskeller wrote: "Is nothing less than perfect worth doing?"

Of course not. If you read my comment, you will notice that I explicitly said that enacting some Federal regulation of the for-profit insurance corporations' worst practices is worth doing.

But let's not pretend that regulating for-profit insurance corporations -- at the cost of mandating that every single American guarantee and subsidize their profits -- is the same thing as establishing government-run, nonprofit, publicly-administered, publicly accountable systems like Social Security and Medicare.

Which is what "sensible liberal" bloggers like Steve Benen have been repeatedly, and dishonestly, asserting.

chrsenson wrote: "However, regulations that eliminate pre-exiting conditions, help control premium costs, and provide some sort of help to the nation's uninsured are a step in the right direction."

I agree that regulating the worst practices of the for-profit insurance corporations, as proposed in the Senate bill, would be an improvement over the status quo.

Whether it is a "step in the right direction" or not depends on what you think the "right direction" is.

I think the "right direction" is universal, nonprofit, single-payer medical coverage under open, accountable, public administration -- e.g. "Medicare For All".

And I don't think the Senate bill is a step in that direction at all. Instead it entrenches and enshrines the for-profit insurance corporations as the foundation of the USA's health care system, and guarantees & subsidizes their profits at public expense.

chrenson wrote: "Be one of those guys that just goes along with what your party is trying to do."

I am not and will never be a Ditto-Head. Sorry if that's inconvenient for "The Party".

Just a thought. If Congress wanted enthusiastic left-wing support, maybe they shouldn't have kicked the left wing at every chance. Maybe instead of only making concessions to the right wing, they might have made a few concessions to their base. (Hint: Public option.) Maybe that would be a more productive method of negotiating than the STFU DFH policy that got us into Iraq, supported Lieberman, got us this bill and is now capitulating on financial reform.

But no, go on. Lecture us about perfect v. good. Forget to note that liberals gave up on perfect long ago, promoted good, and got mediocre. Apparently mediocre is the new good, and if health care reform fails, it will be because liberals didn't embrace mediocrity wholeheartedly.

SecularAnimist: I am not and will never be a Ditto-Head. Sorry if that's inconvenient for "The Party".

It's not just inconvenient, it also makes you irrelevant. Why would the party appeal to you, why would it ever even try to appeal to you? Go vote for Nader or Kucinich, but your support for political causes without many other voters who share your views is literally meaningless. Go write a letter to the editor or more comments here, that's harmless -- but it also accomplishes nothing.

Your stand on principle has a reasonable chance of maintaining the status quo, which in turn means that people will die and suffer. I think that's wrong, and more than a little ridiculous. The political realities right now should be clear to anyone. The fact that you're calling Benen "dishonest" speaks well of your own perspective, which I don't share. Right or wrong, he's clearly advocating for what he thinks is possible, right now. And I agree with him.

Go vote for Nader or Kucinich, but your support for political causes without many other voters who share your views is literally meaningless. Go write a letter to the editor or more comments here, that's harmless -- but it also accomplishes nothing.

Isn't accomplishing nothing the point?

What would SecularAnimist do if everything he advocates for actually happened? Let's pretend for a moment that it's ever possible to legislate without compromise and that SecularAnimist has everything he wants from Congress in full.

Would he be thrilled that his hard work had paid off? Or would he be frightened, angered...convinced that if other people actually support something, it has no value? How do you change a lifelong mindset that says that losing is in and of itself virtuous?

shortstop wrote: "How do you change a lifelong mindset that says that losing is in and of itself virtuous?"

You have absolutely no basis whatsoever from anything I have ever written here to accuse me of having such a "mindset" -- let alone a "lifelong mindset".

You are offering a puerile insult because you have nothing of substance to say in response to what I have actually written, so instead you pretend to have some profound insight into my "lifelong" character flaws and you spew a bunch of drivel about that.

I have not seen so much vilification of progressives by "sensible liberals" since -- well, since the fall of 2002 when Kucinich and others who opposed authorizing Bush to use force against Iraq based on lies were ridiculed, marginalized and demonized, not least by partisan Democrats who were sure that supporting Bush's invasion of Iraq was the way to win back the presidency in 2004.

Yes, Kucinich was right about the war and most other people in Congress were wrong. Do you really think that repeating that 500 times is a stand-in for an argument as to why voting this bill down will bring us single payer any sooner?

I'm not vilifying you, although I guess I am guilty of viewing you as sort of an object lesson. I don't think you're exhibiting a "character flaw" -- I think it's a major blind spot. I don't think you sit around congratulating yourself on the virtue of consistently accomplishing nothing. I think you don't even realize that that's the comfort zone you keep heading for.

When someone repeatedly says that he wants A, and yet all his actions are designed to get B, an observer questions whether A is what the other guy really desires -- whether or not the other guy is fully conscious of it or not.

What this debate is making clear is that what the Democratic Party, its leadership and partisans want, is what the Republicans have: a legion of blindly obedient Ditto-Heads who will slavishly, robotically, believe, do and say whatever they are told to believe, do and say.

Let's forget that multiple public opinion polls have found majority support for single-payer -- and that single-payer actually polls better than the Senate bill.

Let's forget that in spite of that, the Democratic leadership declared single-payer "off the table" from Day One, and systematically excluded advocates of single-payer from the entire health care reform process, instead handing over the drafting of the Senate bill to insurance corporation stooges Max Baucus and Joe Lieberman, and then "negotiating" with their fellow Republicans to make the bill even more satisfactory to the insurance corporations.

Let's forget that at one time, Obama and the Democratic leadership told us that a public option was an important part of the reform bill -- before it too was thrown under the table.

Let's forget that at one time, Obama and the Democratic leadership told us that although single-payer and public option were both off the table and under the bus, that there would be an expansion of Medicare, until that too was thrown off the table and under the bus.

Let's forget all of that, and make sure that anyone who speaks up for the popular demand for a single-payer system, or even for the public option or Medicare expansion, knows that they are not wanted in the Democratic Party and that they have a "lifelong mindset" of desiring failure.

What a load of rubbish.

Like I said, repeatedly -- there is an argument to be made that the modest regulation of the insurance corporations that the Senate bill would establish, though at a high cost of subsidizing and guaranteeing their profits, would be an improvement over the status quo, and is the best we can get given the domination of the legislative process by corporate wealth and power.

It is revealing that advocates of the Senate bill prefer not to make that argument, and instead resort to absurdly equating it with Social Security and Medicare while screeching insults at those who point out their dishonesty.

shortstop wrote: "I don't think you sit around congratulating yourself on the virtue of consistently accomplishing nothing. I think you don't even realize that that's the comfort zone you keep heading for."

I think you don't even realize that your baseless speculations about my motives and subconscious urges are pretentious, idiotic, fatuous pop-psychology drivel from someone who is clearly unable to debate the health care reform issue on the merits, and thus keeps heading for the comfort zone of vapid condescending BS.

A majority...a m-a-j-o-r-i-t-y...of Americans do NOT want this mess passed. Reform? Yes. This monstrosity, hell no!

(((borrowing from Harry Truman with...)))

If the Dems strong-arm this through, they will suffer a rain of run the like of which has never been seen in the American political system.

make sure that anyone who speaks up for the popular demand for a single-payer system, or even for the public option or Medicare expansion, knows that they are not wanted in the Democratic Party and that they have a "lifelong mindset" of desiring failure.

Fella, I haven't said anything about "anyone who speaks up for the popular demand for a single-payer system or even for the public option or Medicare expansion." I'm talking specifically about you -- and for the 100th time, it's not what you support; it's what you choose to do about it. You keep purposely avoiding the fact that both belief and action are part of the political process. Why's that, d'you think?

As for being wanted in the Democratic Party, I neither want nor don't want you. I think it's foolish to waste time trying to convince people whose policy preferences are similar to mine but whose political strategies are more or less equal to teabaggers' or PUMAs'. If you want to vote Democratic, that's fine with me. If you don't, that's okay, too. But please stop thinking that your franchise is some kind of supervote that requires all this constant, public navel-gazing.

It is revealing that advocates of the Senate bill prefer not to make that argument, and instead resort to absurdly equating it with Social Security and Medicare

As revealing as the fact that you seem to have ignored the hundreds of people who are making that argument, and instead are pretending that everyone who wants the bill passed at this point is making the SS/Medicare argument?

I know you're not dumb, SA. Why so dishonest?

I think you don't even realize that your baseless speculations about my motives and subconscious urges are pretentious, idiotic, fatuous pop-psychology drivel from someone who is clearly unable to debate the health care reform issue on the merits, and thus keeps heading for the comfort zone of vapid condescending BS.

(Shrug) It's an observation you're free to make. I'm not rushing to take it as "vilification" or an "attack" or "marginalization" or an "insult," nor is my forehead bulging as yours appears to be doing right now.

You do realize that it's possible to hold different opinions from others without needing their validation, right? Wouldn't it be easier to hang out on Democratic blogs disagreeing with the majority of posters if you didn't constantly need your viewpoint accepted and become patently angry when it's not?

SecularAnimist writes: you have nothing of substance to say in response to what I have actually written

I would be mildly interested in putting down each of your points in detail, but frankly, you don't seem interested in feedback, you don't seem to understand politics, and you're quick to play the victim card.

The very first thing that you wrote in this thread was questions about "how do we know" about future presidential and congressional elections. That half-baked thought alone made me unwilling to go much deeper. If they lose on HCR, Democrats lose the election. Barack's chance in 2004 go way down. Politicians get the very clear, very distinct message, just as they did in 2004, that playing around with Health care means you lose your office. 16 years is half a generation.

I'm a progressive, too. I deeply and profoundly want a public option. I dislike much of the current bill. This is still a grab it or lose it moment, not just for the HCR but for the Democratic majority. It's unfortunate you cannot see that. Progressives like you don't seem to understand that we are in a slim minority. We will never, ever be fully satisfied on a national scale, not in a U.S. election. That is reality. You should accept it.

It's possible that no major, sweeping changes can ever be made to remedy the bill that you (or I) would actually prefer. Tough, life is hard. We improve the status quo. Pass the damn bill.

If only it were true that this would be the end of it. But Democrats always find a way to push this socialist abomination, even after the people say "NO!!"

But Democrats always find a way to push this socialist abomination, even after the people say "NO!!"

We sure are getting a lot of trolls today.

The surveys show the bill gets about 50/50 support, with a lot of variance. Those numbers improve greatly, when each part is explained. Those numbers improve very greatly, when you talk to people who actually need health care. For folks with job-related insurance, who see the doctor every so often, it seems like a "socialist nightmare."

But, bottom line, if you know it's so goddamned unpopular, stop filibustering it and threatening it with every lunatic objection you can device. Instead, let us pass the damn thing, and when the rain of fire comes down on the Democrats, the GOP will have a 100% majority for all time. You win. Please let us throw ourselves into that briar patch.

shortstop wrote: "Wouldn't it be easier to hang out on Democratic blogs disagreeing with the majority of posters if you didn't constantly need your viewpoint accepted and become patently angry when it's not?"

Why are you so offended by an ordinary citizen like myself posting opinions that differ from yours on a public blog comment page, that you are driven to make repeated personal attacks on my character and motives?

For the record, NOTHING I have written here has been written in "anger" -- despite your hallucinations that you have some deep and apparently telepathic insight into my internal psychological states -- and I don't give a hoot whether you or anyone else "accepts my viewpoint".

This is a public comment page, and by posting my comments here, I am doing EXACTLY what you and every other commenter who posts here are doing, no more, and no less.

The Dems will stop at nothing to pass this terrible bill. What a joke. They don't have the votes unless they bribe or threaten Congressmen. This is the most unethical, immoral and perhaps illegal administration in recent history. What a disgrace!!

Okay, Sec. Now that I've gotten through the capital letters, the screams of victimization and the dogged insistence that you're receiving "character attacks," I now understand that you're a study in calm. As for the not giving a hoot part, we'll take your many posts denouncing Democrats for marginalizing you, not being welcoming, etc. as momentary aberrations from your regular nonchalance.

Tom, it's even worse than that. We worship Satan and are coming after your daughters. And we're black.

This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to turn over our individual freedoms to Obama and those who believe that socialism is the best course for the country.

If they get the votes, the next Congress will do everything in its power to repeal it. Why? Because, we the people think its an abomination. There are not 50% of the people supporting this bill unless you are reading some purely left-leaning poll. The majority of the polls show 55-60% of the people opposing the bill and perhaps 30% supporting it. The strongly oppose outnumber the strongly support by 2 or 3 to 1.

It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing, Steve...

Just as I suspected. A link from Real Clear Politics. Heh.

Thanks for the good advice - I've called my congressman in Virgina to tell them to vote no to HCR and sent email blast link to 50+ friends and neighbors.

How can this be called a "Fight" when a punch won't even be allowed in the House?? Voting would be a fight. Deeming would be a fixed fight.

Steve: Thanks for the good advice - I've called my congressman in Virgina to tell them to vote no to HCR and sent email blast link to 50+ friends and neighbors.

Right on, that's democracy. Get your guy to vote the way you want, and we'll have an up-or-down vote on it.

We don't agree on this policy point, but the votes should be cast.

Tom: The Dems will stop at nothing to pass this terrible bill. What a joke. They don't have the votes unless they bribe or threaten Congressmen. This is the most unethical, immoral and perhaps illegal administration in recent history. What a disgrace!!

Thanks for the sense of calm and proportion, Tom. It is worse than you imagine. Like shortstop, I also am black as the ace of spades, but I would prefer to date your son. Location, please?

"The irrational and uninformed usually do speak with more passion "

Kind of like how all you left-wing Bush haters acted all these years?

Pass this bill and democrats will be out of power for 40 years. AND if they use the slaughter house sneek the bill will be repealed by the supreme court anyways.

Goodbye dems. Watching you self immolate has been very enjoyable. Oh and a shout out to Obama for starting the fire.

Jack: Kind of like how all you left-wing Bush haters acted all these years?

I was opposed to the Iraq war in 2002, because I knew about Shia/Sunni tensions and that we would be enmeshed in the regin for years and years. I was opposed to Bush tax cuts, because I knew it would explode deficits. I was opposed to torture, because I knew it would erode America's position in the world -- and would be used against U.S. soldiers.

My hatred for Bush was not irrational, it was based on good judgment. How you'd do with your predictions?

I called my rep. today and told them not to vote for this idiotic bill. It seems the only people who want this bill to pass are the one's commenting on this page. The rest of the country does not want to see this passed.

"A mojority of people support this bill when told about certain sections of the bill" Sure, I'd support pepperoni on pizza, but if you add crap to it the same time, I won't support the whole package.

What world are you living on or what country are you living in....where do you come up with half the people want it to pass...speak the truth, not a lie

And what Lilly means is that she has no fucking idea what's in the bill because her favorite talk radio host won't tell her and she's too goddamned fat and lazy to do some homework.

The bill
- takes 500 billion from medicare over 10 years - and medicare is 30 million per year short now!
- Says it will cost $1 trillion the first 10 years, but it the costs occur over only 6 years!

During this recession, we have been living with the result of people buying houses they can not afford and then defaulting. Now, via this bill, we will do it on a much larger scale - and we expect good results?!! Let's not be foolish.

Dwight: What world are you living on or what country are you living in....where do you come up with half the people want it to pass...speak the truth, not a lie

AslamR: It seems the only people who want this bill to pass are the one's commenting on this page. The rest of the country does not want to see this passed.

Dwight, Aslam - I recommend you not getting your news from Fox, Rush, or Beck. The popularity of the HCR bill depends on who you ask, and how informed they are about the bill. But it's about 40/40 or 50/50, depending on the exact poll. This is not controversial. It goes up to 60/40 if you tell people about individual parts of the bill, and ask them how they like it.

Here's an overview of survey results from two different sources:

• http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php
• http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm

But, if you could just listen to yourself for a second, it might be fruitful to think clearly. You write as if literally no one wants this thing. So... who were the 60 senators that voted for this wildly unpopular bill? Who were the 218 representatives that voted for this bill that the country cannot abide? Do you honestly think that those pampered, self-interested pricks on Capital Hill would be voting for something that is really unpopular? Really?

Is it conceivable that your view of what is popular is incorrect?

In any case, popularity is rarely the best choice for complex matters that require study and intense thought. The Iraq war was popular when people thought it was going to be like the movies. Now it's eight years into the disaster you morons cheered on.

... and I'm done with this thread. G'night everyone. Tip your waitress generously.

Ths Bill is disastrously divisive for the Democratic Party. There is too much infighting, Democrat against Democrat.

The Bill should be scrapped and replaced by something that can gain consensus in the center of American politics.

Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy...
"..replaced by something that can gain consensus in the center of American politics."
You COPIED that, didn't you? Don't lie to me, now! As punishment, you are to look up the definition of "consensus". You are then to examine each section of the bills passed by the House and Senate and determine whether those sections meet the "consensus" of the country.
Then come back here and apologize.
Honestly, teenagers these days!

I have been involved in politics since I was in my early 20's. I am 55. I have never seen anything like this. You all think your phone calls and faxes and E-Mail will do anything? Forget it. He is a Dictator in the making. he cares not for the law and the Constitution. Are you ready to be ruled by a Marxist like Chavez? Better get of your butts and prepare to fight for your freedom. Nothing else will stop this man or his minions. Think I am crazy. Just wait and see. Elections mean nothing to him. He will just steal them.

This bill has never been about healthcare. The people who believe it are the same people who believed after the election that Pres. Obama would pay their mortgages and auto loans. Instead this bill is a cynical attempt to divert one sixth of the economy from the private sector to the public one. And they have done this by looping in SEIU by promising them that all the "new" government employees in healthcare would be represented by the service unions. This in turn enriches the unions' coffers while simultaneously ballooning costs because government employees almost ALWAYS make more than the private sector employees for comparable work. This fills out the costs to an expanding level, ratcheting up inflation to the average folks via ever increasing payroll taxes. Look, I work in a public high school, I've run the numbers and my payroll deductions will double for less services. My husband is a sales rep and he has clients that are running on fumes now. Many have said that additional employee taxes are the last straw. Like it or not, outside the Beltway are lots of people who do not sign onto loans or mortgages without knowing the terms, interest and payments. Unfortunately, Pelosi is telling us to just turn away and let Congress tell us what we want. Whether you believe we need health care reform or not, this is definitely not the way to do it. There are so many other options that were shut down in committee. They've been posted although the Democrat leadership seem to choose to be ignorant of the fact. But most of the responses I have seen on this board reflect a type of insular arrogance that is indicative of the elitism that has permeated Washington DC to our detriment.

So I'm supposed to work and pay taxes so all the lazy sobs can have free health coverage. Fuck that. ThEy get free care at hospitals everywhere. They want coverage, get a fucking job. Oh yeah, Obama got rid of all the jobs to make us greener. Dumbass voters.

Jefferson is actually crying because he worked so hard to give you free speech and you've gone and abused it.

Dickweed!

I was for this bill until it was adulterated by all the bribes and the watering down. And now Pelosi wants to pass it without House members voting for it? These elements have totally turned me and many others against it. In fact, 9,734 of us have made calls to Congressional offices urging members to vote NO! We can do better than this!

Doug, Doug, Doug - so well intentioned yet so wrong.

You are on a fool's errand, an apologist for extremism. I am an old school Democrat. A proud Bill Clinton die-in-the-ditch voter.

This Health Bill is divisive nuts, alienating Democrat from Democrat.

It needs reshaping to be more centrist

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