Sigh. "Message discipline" on their side and very little message (never mind "discipline") on ours...

Substantively ... who cares?

American voters have demonstrated time and time again that they have limited attention spans and IQs. Moreover, they LIKE demonstrations of force, and appreciate things (positive or negative) getting done. They are action-oriented idiots.

So, barring a transformation of the American voters' psyche, who cares about this?

Republicans are very good at ramming their message down our throats via the media. Not one Republican I saw on TV in the last umpty months has missed the opportunity to talk about how this health care bill was being rammed down our throats.

We should not have to shape the questions for others to answer.

Rather, it is they that need to question the answers.

In other words, polls can be shaved a bit to conform to a certain mold, and although not definitive, they can can mislead in directions intended by the pollsters.

The GOP has been obnoxious, to say the least, over the past, dare I say, year.

The voters have a choice.

1.= veracity and normal legislative practices

or

2. Slime-moldering with endless drivel and slanderous bullying.

1= democrats, you guess #2

Worse, the MSM will now cite this poll as yet one more example of the "people's" wisdom that just happens to validate one of their favorite talking points.

I might add, our weak-ass television journalists are too lazy and/or stupid to know when a bunch of bullshit is being rammed down their throats, because they aided and abetted in the ramming. How many talking heads did you see scrunching their foreheads and asking a Dem in a concerned voice about whether it was really a good idea to ram this bill through . .

Ram, ram, ram!

It's also another example of the dynamic between the parties. The GOP attacked Clinton constantly and impeached him over a sexual pecadillo that he wasn't entirely truthful about. This gave impeachment such a bad name that the Dems didn't dare to use it against the very real abuses of the Bush Admin. The Dems did complain about the GOP's "majority of the majority" congressional strategy (don't pass bills that need Dem support) but didn't really complain that much about the use of reconciliation, figuring they would be in the majority soon. The GOP, OTOH, is complaining non-stop about the Dems doing what they did. If the Dems complain too much it will make governing more difficult. The GOP, which doesn't care about governing effectively, can complain and lie all they want, however.

While I get the sentiment and frustration that generates this post, this is a non-starter. Six months from now half the people claiming this was an abuse will have forgotten what happened.

It wouldn't have mattered if it had gotten 60 votes every time, the Republican Party's message will be that it was forced by tyrannical Democrats. It is the only thing they have left about it.

Now the bill's fate rests entirely on whether it can deliver what was promised, which will mainly be determined by the lawyers and the bureaucrats.

Message discipline by the minority is especially effective when it is validated by the majority. Palin whined about "death panels" and Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" The Democrats immediately rewarded their dishonest and uncivil rhetoric with substantive changes to the proposed legislation.

Mainstream outlets, obliged to pass along reports of debates, regardless of merit, covered the sausage-making process at a granular level, offering procedual coverage in a way that probably has no precedent in American history.

Interesting choice of the word "obliged." The so-called "liberal media" is in no way "obliged" to pass along meritless arguments -- indeed, it's obliged to ignore meritless arguments or at the very least point them out. And yet the so-called "liberal media" let the Republicans make their meritless arguments, and then just left it there.

Of course message discipline works! Look at religion. Christianity and Islam [and others] are based on repetitive ritualistic chanting in order to hypnotize and control their congregations. Two women would not blow themselves up in a Moscow train station without message discipline. Christians would not give their churches 10% of everything they have without message discipline. Marines would not lock and load without message discipline.

Repetitive, disciplined messages are the keys to the city, man.

First, you left out the part of the question that relates to votes. That part easily could have confused people who were focusing on the initial 60 votes in the Senate or the abortion back and forth in the House. Also, the choices are about the exercise\abuse of power in the aggregate (no specifics). Its a greater surprise that a question re the government's\Dem's abuse of power didn't get more than 50% especially with all of the focus on abortion.

Yeah, look, I'm not too worried about this right now. Sure, you can craft a poll with slanted questions to produce any result you want.

When it comes time to campaign in November, do you think any parent is going to vote for a candidate who promises to give insurance companies back the right to through their children off of the insurance they have and have paid for for a "pre-existing condition"? Sure the right and their supporters in the media are wailing and gnashing their teeth now, but what good is going to do them?

Now, if the politicians on our side don't handle the message right when it matters, that'll be a problem. About the only thing this does now, though, is encourage Republican primary candidates to tie themselves to positions that will be millstones around their neck in November.

If the Democrats had abused their power, we might have got a better bill. The success of the Republican propaganda affecting public perception, though, is discouraging.

Any question beyond "Candidate A or B?" or "Policy X: Like or dislike?" or, "who's going to win the Super Bowl," and public opinion polling is useless. The fact is, a working majority of Americans has no idea what they're talking about on any subject. The know-nothing group changes members from question to question, but it's always sizable.
My favorite poll question this year came from Rasmussen (honest!). It was a true-false question. Defense spending, Medicare and Social Security make up most of the federal budget, true or false. By a wide margin (45-35 I think), the respondents proudly and incorrectly answered "false."
The 20 percent honest enough to answer they didn't know are the last hope of our Republic.

Ramming Down Our Throat is the new Republican definition of Majority Vote.

Yesterday one of our State Leg Reps was complaining about a bingo bill being rammed down our throat the same as health care was rammed down our throat. The Bingo Bill had been voted out of the Senate and sent to the house by a straight up down majority.

WATBs

Perhaps we need to press the GOP bloviators on how they would do things differently. Since the Dems used parliamentary tricks and abused power, the GOP must be willing to forego using the same processes that the Dems used to pass this legislation.

I can't wait to see the GOP commit to voting exclusively on bipartisan legislation alongside minimum 20 members of the opposition. None of these "majority rules" shenanigans anymore.

"Casual news consumers, who don't generally care about legislative procedures, were no doubt left with the impression that Dems were handling the process the wrong way. After all, that's what "everyone is talking about." They heard "something about this on the news.""

This is exactly how news is learned by most people and points to one of the key flaws in democratic messaging. They don't seem to believe it's their job to be repetitive. It's analogous to the way the media doesn't believe it's their responsibility to convince, only to report news. So if they state something once or twice they've done their job.

It's a lesson the dems really need to learn.

The accuracy of any poll depends entirely on the level of knowledge of the responders.

I spoke today with a man, runs an auto supply store, seems reasonably intelligent, who had heard not a word about the christian militia nine arrested this week. It was 'all over' the news, yet he had not heard of it.

The day after the historic vote on health care another acquaintance was equally ignorant. This after a full year of debate.

As I posted here the other day, signing the kids up for T-ball, March Madness, and traffic on the bypass, leave little room for examining the topics discussed here.

I have two words. Fox News.

Their business model is to make money opposing the Democrats. They have been extremely successful. They are also unopposed except for three hours four nights a week on MSNBC.

I'm not buying this Steve. This is the vaunted 'transparency' everyone WANTED (and say they don't have.) The GOPpers knew if the Dems put it out there people would be pleased so they had to show how awful and messy governing IS. THEY were the ones that did everything behind closed doors so they got out there early and often with their 'dead of the night' message. The public bought it because they'd never seen it before.

An interesting follow up question would have been to ask people exactly how the Democrats abused their power. A lot of cricket sounds would ensue....

Remember this anytime someone says the American public is intelligent.

Forget the American people it's those who take these polls and those who believe them that lack intelligence.

I note that the latest Republican talking point brings up the dangers of "one party rule" in Washington. Interesting framing. After 8 years of Bush the voters give Democrats a large majority, which they use to begin to implement many of the overwhelmingly popular reforms they ran on.

Yet Republicans term this turn of events at least illegitimate, perhaps even dangerous, marginalizing themselves even further and offering yet more proof, as if more were needed, of the huge disconnect between reality and GOP rhetoric. Sensible people know better. Message discipline isn't enough. At some point you have to actually deliver real solutions.

The canard that Democrats are by nature more undisciplined than Republicans needs a little blowback. Consider:

-- Democrats don't get the airtime Republicans do. The major networks that grant more than token time to HCR or Wall Street regulation advocates face enormous pressure from heavy advertisers: drug companies, insurers, banks, investment houses. It's much easier to dominate the debate if your team has the ball 2/3 of the time.

-- Remember what Republicans are like when they get command of either house? They make Democrats look like assembly-line robots. It's easier for a minority party to maintain discipline than a majority party. Once a party has a majority in place its members have far more leeway to grandstand, equivocate and cut deals for votes.

-- Reforms, military withdrawals and new regulations are politically difficult. Tax cuts, saber-rattling and deregulation are not.

-- Some appreciation should be made of the huge lobbying power possessed by large, multinational corporations. Even small victories against these powerhouses are major, major accomplishments. Expecting Democrats to keep turning up their noses at their money and influence is asking them to be self-sacrificing saints.

This isn't to say that highlighting the party's shortcomings and appealing to its conscience aren't worthwhile. It is to say, step back now and then and do a reality check.

...do you think the methods the Democratic leaders in Congress used to get enough legislation ...?

The actual question was worded "...do you think the methods the Democratic leaders in Congress used to get enough votes to pass this legislation..." As you've transcribed it, the question sounds idiotic.

Of course, the results are somewhat meaningless since the pollsters didn't ask if the respondents even knew what those methods were...

The Republicans are masters at taking their opponents' strength and making it into a weakness. And our bumbling inept, frustrating Democratic Congressional leaders ***never*** learn. Why aren't they hiring some more effective communicators to polish their message?

Really, I don't know which party is more insane. Especially if you apply Einstein's definition of insanity to Democrats -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

So overblown rhetoric on one side and ineffectual response on the other.
It's like Hannity and Colmes writ large.

Both my husband and I have been yelling at tv screens for the last week, asking why the Dems aren't out there with a consistent message, blowing away the Republicans as they ought to be doing with ease. And I feel v. frustrated with my party right now.

It's what you've called the "megaphone gap", Steve. I call it the demise of democracy if it isn't corrected.

The Republicans know the full value of P.T. Barnum's observation of the American people! Damn them for their raw cynicism! -Kevo

This is quite amusing. This is more evidence that Democrats are headed for a beating in November the likes of which they have never seen. What you don't seem to grasp is that a majority of the American people know that there has NEVER been a piece of legislation of this size and import passed on a purely partisan vote, while being opposed by a majority of voters. This has been a long-awaited wake up call wherein people are finally realizing we are in debt up to our eyeballs, and adding to it, in spite of your expected protestations to the contrary, isn't smart or desirable. The best part is you seem to think that "They" will get over it, and turn their attentions to other things. They are going to turn their attention to other things--defeating incumbent Democrats. Good luck this November, and many after that. I am going to enjoy coming back to this site again.

As someone trying to learn as much as I could about the health plan, I was extremely frustrated that the MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) did not give good informative news on the content of the bill.

I was disappointed that Obama seemed to take such a removed stance about the bill, didn't talk much about what the bill would do, did not bring the public along. But, then, I was a single payer adovocate and I resented his calling people like "the little single payer advocates" or "the liberal bleeding hearts." Belittling voters is such a good tactic.

And then the CongressCritters would say they couldn't really tell us, their constituents, what was in the bill as for so very long they had no idea. Badly done, Dems.

I don't know how people who didn't spend the time I did on reading blogs, even initial legislation (boy, I do not enjoy reading legislatese!), news reports, listening to good analyses on Moyers, etc.,...I don't know how people can be expected to be able to know about things with the existing MCM we have.

We go to vote with the MCM we have, not the MCM we need, eh?

@BillyBob, the reason HCR was a partisan vote is that these days moderation among Republican ranks is severely punished. Centrists have been shown the door, while right-wingers are fending off attacks from the yet-further right.

Furthermore, the assertion that health care reform was opposed by a majority of voters is patently untrue. Even the Republican leadership admitted that the status quo was unsustainable and that reforms were necessary. The disagreements were over what changes to make to accomplish several things at once - bending the cost curve, installing protections from the worst ins. co. abuses, and extending coverage to those who have none or too little. What we heard from the GOP was mainly tort reform and the selling of policies across state lines.

Anyone who has followed this debate understands that HCR is designed to *lessen long-term debt, not increase it, and while I'm sure passage of the ACA will mobilize the GOP base, it has energized Democrats and Independents as well. Time will tell..

Yes, it was very partisan of the Democrats to pass a national version of Romneycare.

Better trolls, please.

Just two comments:
Every commenter who complains about Democrats not maintaining "message discipline" as well as the Republicans should remember this: the Democrats in the House and Senate, well, most of them, are actually trying to do their jobs. That requires them to focus on other things than the latest faux-outrage the Republicans are screaming about. As for the Republicans, how hard is it to remember to always vote no?
And for Mr. Schranzburg @ 5:33 PM: Unless you're a full-blown masochist, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I really, really doubt you're going to "enjoy" coming back here.
Because we'll still be here...

I resented his [Obama's] calling people like "the little single payer advocates" or "the liberal bleeding hearts." -- jawbone, @17:44

Please remind me where and when he said that.

It does matter and does not completely fade over time. Repeated misinformation and labels stick in people's unconscious and affect later behavior and beliefs, even if they claim/believe otherwise. It's insidious. Think advertising. It's very important not to let them get away with spreading their labels and frames everywhere unchallenged. The average guy says,"It must be true. I heard it from several sources."

"Yes, it was very partisan of the Democrats to pass a national version of Romneycare."

Pardon me, but I think any legislation passed without a single vote from one party is, by definition, partisan. I'm sorry if you have a difficult time with that reality, Jim.

Doug--granted it does take a bit of masochism for me to visit here with any regularity. I used to come by all the time just to see what the other side was "thinking." I quit coming when any evidence of thinking became rare, but plenty of spleen-venting and partisan nonsense was posted every day. I will enjoy coming back when November rolls around, and you folks see what your attitudes have wrought. As I said above, I think you are going to see a debacle for Democrats unlike any other election in our lifetime. It's a long way to November, but not long enough. My job involves speaking with upwards of a hundred people every day, from all walks of life, every state, every race, creed, religion, gender, etc. I see and hear evidence every day of anger, distrust, impatience--just total exasperation with a government that is perceived as out of control. Out of control with spending, obstacles to business, blind to people who have lost their jobs, taking the country in directions that unsettle and disturb citizens, and so on. Discount if you choose, but to do so is folly. People are fed up with this President, this Congress(both parties, but the one in charge gets the bulk of blame), and particularly fed up with their fellow citizens who seem not to like our country or its citizens--at least those with whom they disagree. All of that spells election disaster for incumbent Democrats.

BB,
How long is your lifetime? My lifetime has seen many routs at the polls and of course many predictions that were accurate and many that were proven wrong.
My daughters have pre-existing conditions. It is nice to know that they will not be denied health care in the future. I guess all those people you talk to have healthy children. God bless them.

I will be 54 in June. My Dad worked in the Kennedy Administration, so I have been involved in politics for a long time. That doesn't mean my prediction means anything, but I smell an unprecedented rout.

I'm sorry about your daughters, hornblower, and wish them well. Not everyone judges legislation by how it affects them personally. Some consider the implications for the entire country's financial health, and the future of all our citizens--young and old.

What is more important that the health of America's children?
I think many will find this a compelling argument come election season.

I get Medicare next month and for the first time in many years I think the nation is in good hands.
Peace!

Someone is surprised to discover that Mencken was right, back in 1924, when he said:

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

The truth is, most Americans have their head so far up their ass they haven't ween daylight in decades.

How else do you describe the survival of the Republican Party?

This is a push poll. The wording of the question implies that something about the process was abnormal--either Dems used their power too much, or they used it just right. Combined with the ignorance problem, it's surprising that "abuse" wasn't more commonly chosen...

"Moral of the story: Message discipline works."

Duh.

We've seen this since AT LEAST the Swiftboaters. That's just the first one that leaps to my mind.

Here is the ONLY strength of the Republican Party, but it is NOT to be dismissed, as the polls show it WORKS with the American sheeple.

"Perhaps we need to press the GOP bloviators on how they would do things differently"

No we don't, because they're already telling us.

They would keep all the "good" stuff in the bill (no pre-existing conditions, no lifetime or yearly limits), but they'd get rid of the "cuts to Medicare [ie Medicare Advantage programs, but they WON'T say that], they'd allow us to buy insurance across state lines, and most important of all, they'd get rid of the individual mandate.

They they would completely ignore that their plan would explode the cost of private health insurance AND would not cut costs at all. That is to say, they would not let the CBO score it.

And since it is not actually legislation, there would be no reason for the CBO to score it.

But their plan sounds pretty good. Hey, the Medicare prescription plan sounded pretty good, even with the doughnut hole. Oh yeah, they'd get rid of the doughnut hole, too. That's part of their plan. [Which would lead an actual journalist to ask one of them, "Why did you put the doughnut hole in there in the first place," but they won't have to worry about meeting an actual journalist on TV.]

Because deficit spending does not count when Republicans do it. (Remember the Dark Lord saying "deficits don't matter"?) And in campaign rhetoric no one ever comes clean about cost anyway. And the sheeple don't think cost matters, especially when out of the other side of your mouth you say you'll cut taxes.

The lying LIAHS will just promise bread and circuses like they always do.

"Both my husband and I have been yelling at tv screens for the last week, asking why the Dems aren't out there with a consistent message, blowing away the Republicans as they ought to be doing with ease. "

Me and my husband, too, lou. But I've come to the conclusion that it will never happen. Democrats actually THINK about policy. Republicans don't care about it since they are anti-government and just want to blow s%$t up.

It's much easier to "stay on message" when that IS your entire strategy. Since they don't have a policy thought in their pretty little heads, Republicans can put their daily talking points on their blank "reader things" and read it over and over and over and over ... and never get mixed up.

I think it's also the way the question was asked.

...do you think the methods the Democratic leaders in Congress used to get enough legislation -- were [they] an abuse of power, or were [they] an appropriate use of power by the party that controls the majority in Congress?

A more neutral way to ask would have been, "Was the bill passed using appropriate Congressional methods or not?" I think the response would have been much different.

I resented his [Obama's] calling people like "the little single payer advocates" or "the liberal bleeding hearts."
dance wear