This ridiculous, feverish nontroversy is what the death throes of an empire look and sound like.

Gee, I wonder if theAmericanist has anything to say about this...

Echoing what Steve LaBonne said.

But this reflects a society that is deeply immature and uncertain of itself, one where discussion of any serious topic turns into a grotesque kabuki dance.

The fact that it is not possible on any part of the "news media" spectrum to conduct a discussion on the facts of any matter is a sure-fire indication that things will continue to deteriorate.

And Obama is far from blameless in this. Even his initial statement contained ambiguities. He should have included something along these lines:

"The controversy over the proposed Islamic community center in lower Manhattan has been promoted purely for the sake of controversy and those who are doing this are not doing anything to help heal the wounds of 9/1l and they are certainly helping to erode the values that we hold dear. They should be ashamed of themselves."

These fools want to start genocidal wars with Hispanics and Muslims just to get votes this November, not because they have any plan for the country, but, just because...
This 'genii' of hatred will not go back into the bottle easily or willingly.
If there's a God, may He/She/It help us...

Everything about this debate is largely a sham, cooked up by conservatives who hope to pit Americans against each other in advance of an election cycle.

This. A thousand times, this.

And as the Newsweek cover shows, the so-called "liberal media" is aiding and abetting the conservatives in promoting their bogus and un-American ranting.

This is a fight they want to have. They do it because it works. Fear trumps reason and always has. When we're tempted to think there's a rational core to our politics and governance, just remember the polling numbers here. All our good, heart-felt arguments are nothing against the raw power of xenophobia. Republicans are shameless and stating as much changes nothing.

Olbermann hit a homer yesterday.

The question remains: If someone hits a homer and there is no one there to see it is it really a homer?

This Republic is well along the way in it's death throe. Sad but alas unavoidable. The rich have decided to buy the country via mass media and low educational standards and the unwillingness of corporate america to share wealth or the chance at it has handed it to them on a silver platter. Pass the Grey Pupon...

It's right to say that there is no mosque at Ground Zero but really that should not be the fucking point. I'll repeat what the President said (in his supposedly clarifying remarks):

"In this country, we treat everybody equally in accordance with the law. Regardless of race. Regardless of religion."

Full, fucking, stop. (or period as you americans say, I believe)

I was in a meeting the other day and witnessed two died in the wool Republicans. One was mouthing all the Fox News "facts," the people behind Cordoba House are muslim activists funded by Hammas, the proposed mosque really is at ground zero, after all the landing gear of one of the air planes penetrated the old coat factory outlet and all the rest.

The other Republican looked at him and said, "as much as I hate to agree with (Obama) he is right. This is America and Americans have a right to worship as they please and to do with their property as they please. You might not agree with them, but they aren't violating any law and their rights are constitutionally protected." The Fox News bunny sputtered. He didn't know how to respond.

I wonder if this issue has the legs the folks at Fox think it does.

"NEWS"week has a devious, capitalistic plot- They want to sell magazines!

One can imagine the editorial conference, the debate on the wording of their cover story.

Anyone remember Time's cover picture of O.J. Simpson, suddenly darker than real life? Betcha that issue sold well in down in Dixie. . .

related fake news

SUB-ROSA NEWS

Some of the News
That may be True

Salt Lake City Creates No Church Zone

Yesterday the Salt Lake City Council passed an ordinance banning the construction of any non-Mormon churches within 1 mile of Temple Square, the site of the Mormon Tabernacle. This was in response to a poll of city residents showing that 62% of responders oppose the proposed construction a branch of Rick Warren's Southern Baptist Saddleback Church. The Mayor is expected to sign the new law tomorrow.

According to City Council spokesman Robert Smith, the Saddleback Church and Community Center would be only three blocks from the Tabernacle and might even be visible from parts of the Tabernacle. He stated that the Council in no way questions the right of churches, as a matter of religious freedom, to build wherever they wish but that they must comply with local zoning laws. The Council respects the 1st Amendment but church officials must have the wisdom not to build where it would offend the sensibilities of the residents.

homer www.altara.blogspot.com

Bin Laden, in his seaview, ISI-provided apartment in Karachi, is presumably taking this controversy in with satisfaction. I'm guessing he will weigh in soon on the victory the American bigots and yobs are handing him.

Pointing out that "hey, it's not a mosque" and "hey, it's 2 blocks away" are exactly the wrong responses to an attack like this. So what if it were a mosque being built on the rubble of the Twin Towers? Why should anyone be offended? What connection does Islam in general have with terrorists or 9/11? Why would a mosque be any better or worse than a church or a synagogue or a museum?

Instead you and Reid -- but not Obama! -- concede implicitly that Islam = 9/11, but beg off on the details. Then you wonder why the other side is winning the argument.

"I wonder if this issue has the legs the folks at Fox think it does."

It has legs enough to get their people to the pols in November, and those are the only legs it needs. Voter turnout is key, and unfortunately, I'm not expecting much which means a small number of lunatics can (and probably will) cause a great deal of harm.

good thing they stopped calling it cordoba house. we wouldn't want to pay tribute to a time when members of all religions could live peacefully together, no matter their faith. (sephardic jew talkin here)

I don't think I can say it any plainer than this: every Republican who talks about banning mosques in America, or banning this Muslim community center has become an active part of recruitment for the Islamic terrorists they are against. Their many televised remarks about Muslims in America will be played to young, gullible fools who will be told, "See, they hate us. See, this is a war against Islam. See!" The GOP and its Fox propaganda are now part of the highlight reel for Al-Qaeda -- even though they will not stop this community center.

The Fox viewers and GOP followers who want to stop this project could not be more against the principles of America unless they engaged in armed rebellion. Their actions, quite literally, will result in more effective terrorist recruitment.

the so-called "liberal media" is aiding and abetting the conservatives in promoting their bogus and un-American ranting.

Myth and misnomer - two effective tools used by American demagogues for some time now! -Kevo

Tom Allen,

The problem with your proposed argument is that it tacitly accepts the falsehood. I disagree. When someone comes at you with a lie, call it a lie, don't argue the principles of their story.

The standard politician bar is set low enough to stymie championship limbo contestants. Any topic that engenders fear and anger will do. The community center has all the best flashpoints. The Republican leadership/media talking heads can foment most anything into a smoke screen to hide their pathetic lack of substance on the issues as well as the fact that many of their numbers lack functional gray matter or working moral compasses.

@Tom Allen - I agree 100%. A sick terrorist group called al-Qaeda brought down the Twin Towers on 9/11. They have killed more Muslims than those of any other religious sect (not to mention the fact that innocent Muslims were also killed in that attack). Al-Qaeda is the enemy, not Muslims. The conversation and ensuing "controversy" should have stopped right there. It's as simple as that.

The Republicans are once again successful in framing a subject around falsehoods. And everyone seems to fall right in line.

The Republicans know that they will lose if they run on policy, so they run on diversions.

It started with Willie Horton. When that was successful they tried and failed with Whitewater, but were successful with Swift Boats.

When you couple this strategy with the genius of Frank Luntz and an ill-informed electorate, the Republicans are a formidable foe.

He visited an Islamic Center six days after 9/11.

In keeping with custom, he removed his shoes before entering the mosque.

While there he said:

Muslims should be treated with respect because "the face of terror is not the true faith of Islam."

Last week's murderous acts by Islamic terrorists "violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith."

"Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."

Americans who are intimidating fellow citizens represent the "worst of humankind."

The Muslim leaders with whom I met share my outrage and sadness. "They love America just as much as I do."

No, that was not Obama. It was George W. Bush.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-te.bush18sep18,0,2211682.story

I have a slight advantage over most of the commenters here. I've been a New yorker all but five of the 46 years of my adult life. (Ironically, the last day I worked before my wife needed me at home because of her disability was -- the two facts are unrelated -- the day of the first, failed attack on the WTC.)

I know that area, and those who picture this as an area 'rich in heritage' just have never been there. This is the 'slum' of downtown, fast food joints, usually not even franchises, porn stores and 'gentleman's clubs,' there used to be a hotel a block or so away that I found a godsend a couple of very broke nights because you could get a room there that was reasonably clean for $10 without brushing away the dead condoms and needles you would find in a 'hooker heaven.'

Daryl Lang has a great group of photographs of the area as it is now. "Park Place" is the name of the street, yes, and I wonder how many people have images of the 'high-rent' district in Monopoly. But this Park Place leads to "City Hall Park" -- and I believe the Community Center could have been as well called the "City Hall 'Mosque'" because it is as near to that NYC landmark as it is to the remains of the WTC.

And one fact that has gotten missed is that this is not the only Mosque in NYC that is being protested. One reason i enjoy living in Brooklyn these days -- and for the last two decades -- is the wonderful diversity that surrounds me. My area happens to be predominantly Jewish, but later on today I am probably going to make a trip to the main Pakistani area of Brooklyn, for some food and to pick up some CDs of Pakistani Pop music -- a hobby of mine -- that I didn't know had been released until this last weekend.

The trip is walkable even for my arthritic, surgically repaired knees, because it is three short blocks plus four longer ones. The two neighborhoods touch, and, in fact, whichever of two routes I walk, I will pass at least one Pakistani grocery store in 'my' neighborhood.

An a bust trip only a little longer in the opposite direction shows another Islamic Center, further down Coney island Avenue -- wedged between a kosher grpocery store and a Jewish Day Care Center.

But, lost in the shuffle, a few Muslims are building what is, I believe, a 'real' mosque even further into Brooklyn, in Sheepshead Bay. Despite the record of tolerance the other demonstrate, those neighbors are protesting, one of them being even willing to state, publicly and to the press, that 'if they build it, I'll blow it up.'

I can just imagine what's happening elsewhere. And I weep, remembering all I've learned about what America is supposed to stand for.

homerhk: Not to worry, pretty soon that punctuation mark you are concerned about will be known only as "dot".

Of course Obama and Keith are absolutely right about this issue, and really, what the hell was Harry Reid thinking?

But I think we have to recognise that many Muslims in the US are bringing with them cultural values from a period the West has generally gotten past, whether centuries ago or just years ago, or in some ways still in process. Like male domination and subjugation of women and hatred of gay people. These kinds of attitudes, particulary being connected with religion and not just culture, are likely to persist at least for some generations. Obviously in European countries, with much larger percentages of Muslim immigrants, this is a much bigger issue. It's not just about 9/11.

Newsweek's headline, "A Mosque at Ground Zero," may be four-fifths, or 80 percent, incorrect the way Steve appraises it. But take away the superfluous, though singularly correct, article "A" and it becomes "Mosque at Ground Zero." 100 percent incorrect.

The dot before the calm .

Prup @ 10:52
Thanks for that, it helps a lot from the left hand side of the US.

found your site on del.icio.us today and really liked it.. i bookmarked it and will be back to check it out some more later