Yep...down on your knees mofo's...when you PRAY do you say 'hey God? Yeah I'm being a hypocrite but just give me a little more time and I'll make it up to you...'? REALLY great Christians...

Yanno, Medved's claiming that God is on his side and would votte for Republicans this fall, as well as Beck's public show of piety, are an opportunity for humility.

Matthew 6:6 is the clear answer to Beck, not to mention the prior verse: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

But it's Medved's claim that is genuinely blasphemous -- and that is a concept worth reviving. It's answered not simply by Obama's use of the ancient phrasing, that he didn't know if God was on his side but he prays to be sure he's on God's side.

Many people know that Lincoln prefigured his Second Inaugural Address in a note he wrote to himself in 1862, when it was possible, even likely, that he would fail to save the Union: "In great contests, each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time."

But I find that most folks miss the significance of Lincoln's choked phrase "Both may be..." wrong.

He realized, as a rational man, that "one must be wrong".

But that is as far as a genuinely faithful person, humble before God, can legitimately go -- what constitutes blasphemy is to require that God fit into a human perspective.

This is perhaps the greatest cultural achievement in the Bible, after all (it's the point of the Book of Job), the realization that, as Lincoln put it, "The Almighty has His own purposes. "

Medved has done something genuinely blasphemous.

Steve writes:"religious culture-war issues. . ."

Being an atheist at the moment, but raised as a Christian, I'm pretty sure they call their head guy the Prince of PEACE. . .

And God said "Ha!"

I think claiming that God is a Republican would qualify as blasphemy if we lived in sane times. As for me, I think Jacknon Browne came closer to the mark in his description of "The Rebel Jesus."

Well they call him by 'the Prince of Peace'
And they call him by 'the Savior'
And they pray to him upon the seas
And in every bold endeavor
And they fill his churches with their pride and gold
As their faith in him increases
But they've turned the nature that I worship in
From a temple to a robber's den
In the words of the rebel Jesus

Well we guard our world with locks and guns
And we guard our fine possessions
And once a year when Christmas comes
We give to our relations
And perhaps we give a little to the poor
If the generosity should seize us
But if any one of us should interfere
In the business of why there are poor
They get the same as the rebel Jesus

Now pardon me if I have seemed
To take the tone of judgement
For I've no wish to come between
This day and your enjoyment
In a life of hardship and of earthly toil
There's a need for anything that frees us
So I bid you pleasure
And I bid you cheer
From a heathen and a pagan
On the side of the rebel Jesus

Of course, Jackson is an old, unrepentant liberal, so his opinion wouldn't matter as much as that of a Republican hack.

Just to be clear, Medved doesn't specify the "Christian" God, which makes sense, since he's Jewish. All his scriptural citations are to the Torah or to rabbinical commentary.

*Ahem* It's bloody about time. If you check back a few moths, I had repeatedly asked people to pay attention to that race. Aiona is dangerously involved with the Mew Apostolic Reformation, the most dangerous and crazy group out there -- far more both than the standard "Religious Right." Aiona has made an official pronouncement 'dedicating the state to Christ' and has done other things seriously threatening 'separation.' (And Hanneman has, in fact, appeared at many events with Aiona -- search Aiona's name at Talk to Action for more about all of this.)

The Abercrombie race may be one of the most important ones to follow and support for anyone seriously concerned about separation issues. We are not talking about the equivalent of a McDonnell or a Cuccinelli here -- or even of a puritanical, ho0mophobic bigot such as Mary Fannin -- whose Oklahoma Gubernatorial campaign deserves more attention.

These are classical RRers, and are annoying until people get tired of ther puritanism and absurdity. But Aiona is a full-fledged supporter of '7 Mountains theology' -- the same ideas that the Rev. Muthee preached in the sermon before he blessed 'Sister Sarah.' (Muthee is no passing Fred Phelps type, btw, but, witch hunter as he is, is the head of one of the larger African megachurches, and of an association of, iirc, 500 other churches. And 'witch hunting' is, literally a feature, not a bug for the NAR).

He's a lot more dangerous, and it is about time someone noticed the race. I wish I knew how the primary and the elction were going. (Again, despite the Republican leader's comments -- hardly out of line for NAR types -- Hanneman is at least willing to show sympathy to the same groups -- to the point where a local leader argued that, if Hanneman wins the primary, then the NAR would control the state whichever won the general.)

"New" Apostolic Reformation -- not "Mew."

[correction insisted on by my cats.]

I used to snort with disdainful amusement whenever the subject of "End Times" and "Apocalypse" was broached.

After reading prup, I'm not so sure. There certainly are some serious (read: 'crazy') folks dedicated to bringing it about. . .

I shall be blunt: Michael Medved would not know the intentions of the Christian God, were that deity to come down from on high and smite Medved's cantankerous face off his empty skull with the jawbone of an elephant for being such a Republicanistic twit.

And, DAY, these are not the same as the LeHaye 'Rapturists.' These people do not believe in the immenent arrival of the AntiChrist and then the reign of Christ on Earth.

They believe that Christ will not come until they seize control of the world, purge it of demonic influences -- they see actual, literal demons behind the 'evils of the world' including homosexuality -- and remake it into a place suitable for Christ to reign over.

And if this sounds like an absurd idea of a small group, they have had considerable success in at least beginning to control some countries -- unlike most of what we view as the RR, they are world-wide, not just predominantly American, though most of the ideas and preachers are American. They have celebrated the Mussvenis -- and claimed that once the Mussvenis dedicated the country to Christ, 'thousands of AIDS patients were instantaneously and miraculously healed.'

And they had a brief time of control over Fiji -- which resulted in 'miraculous third harvests of giant-sized vegetables.'

Yes a very delusional and very scary group of people. Again, i recommend the Talk2Action pieces. They are slightly exaggerated and panicy -- typical of T2A -- but generally pretty solid.

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I don't talk about Jesus and Christians shouldn't talk about anything else.

The day I hear that a fundamentalist Christian walks into a dark room and, instead of reaching for the light switch, drops to his knees and prays for light, I will believe that there is at least one actual Christian out there. It reminds me of the writings of philosopher Denis Diderot in Pensées philosophiques, 1746

"One day a man was asked if there were any true atheists. 'Do you think,' he replied, 'there are any true Christians?'"

- Blue Sun
---------------------------------
Give a man a fish and he will have a pretty nice dinner. Give him religion and he will starve to death praying for fish.

Reply to theAmericanist: It is not uncommon for even the most committed atheist to refer to god to make a point, often ironically. I do it myself on occasion. (Einstein, an avowed atheist once said "God doesn't play dice with the Universe." for example).

But on the subject of religion, Abraham Lincoln said quite explicitly, "The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion."

Lincoln, the first, and only great Republican President in our history also had some other interesting quotes that you never hear current Republicans refer to. In fact, if a Democrat said them today, the GOP would mock and deride him as a Socialist or Marxist. For example:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country...Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital and deserves much the higher consideration."

"I go for all sharing the privileges of the government who assist in bearing its burdens."

"The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but cannot do at all in their separate and individual capacities."

Lincoln understood that the question is not, as Republicans phrase it, the merits of small government versus big government, but of bad and corrupt government versus good and effective (in terms of delivering the necessary services to the people) government.

- Blue Sun
---------------------------------

"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight." - Mark Twain.

Right-wing radio host Michael Medved insisted this week that if the Christian God were a registered voter in the United States, "[He] would cast his all-important ballot for Republicans."

Just when we think the ocean of inanity from the Right can't rise any higher, there's always Michael Medved.

Yes, Micheal, I'm sure if God were a voter he/she would certainly cast his/her vote for a party that worships nothing but greed and financial excess; encourages the ruthless exploitation and demonization of the poor; routinely tolerates and often foments religious bigotry and racism among its adherents; engages in fervent warmongering (also for financial gain) and sends future generations the bill; denies science and knowledge in favor of ideology and openly promotes policies designed to destroy and ravage the environment, again for short-term financial gain without a single care given to the impact on the planet or the health of future generations.

Yes, Micheal, I'm sure "God" would vote for these people in a heartbeat. I'd call Medved an idiot, but that would be cruel in a way. Like the two-headed cow and other oddities on display at the local carnival

Damn that "Post" button! To finish:

"...Medved isn't really responsible for what he is, but really ought to be taken off display."

Democrats should use every instance of religious domineering to remind the offenders of the benefits of the 1st amendment. We respect people's religious beliefs not because we think they are correct, but because we have agreed to disagree and move on. The media also should remind politicians of the 1st amendment when the subject is brought up.

It's important to note that Medved's statement was speculative. "If God..." At least he didn't say "God told me he would vote Republican."

Using the God-myth to win elections.. What can I say America, you're screwed! Poor little Hawaii, Jebus Juice on every corner. Christian blood-filth..

Hawking's a smart guy, but the idea that the Universe could create itself from nothing requires just as much faith to accept as any religious idea would.

I've always liked the Hindu idea that god is all that exists, and he/she/it is just playing hide and seek with itself by pretending to be everything and everyone in the universe.

The universe cannot create itself from a true "nothing" - since the nothing has no activity to mark time. If Hawking means (likely) the quantum activity of virtual particles, they are just in a different state of energy-time relation - it is still "matter" and "something" or the activity couldn't be described! It's like saying, rain comes from clouds so there's no need to explain water at all (or, why water instead of ammonia, if you catch my analogy per the multiverse and anthropic considerations.) The implications of the U not "creating itself from nothing" are of course debatable.

Paradoxer

Blue Sun: someone really should tell you that most of those quotes are misattributed; Lincoln never said them.

American exceptionalism rides again; we are *different*. Always. Even when it comes to religion:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/opinion/04blow.html?ref=opinion

LOL -- Ex proves yet again the narrow prejudices and willful ignorance that rules progressive political culture.

DO tell, Ex, why did you put "different" in quotation marks?

Are you denying the data -- insisting against all the evidence that Americans believe their religion is important to their lives in numbers that double and triple other rich countries?

If that's yer beef, kindly explain what's wrong with the data, or cite the better data that doubtless informs your opinion.

Or are you denying that this real difference is so significant as to qualify America as genuinely exceptional? Cuz that's pretty much what exceptional MEANS, yanno -- if the best basketball players are taller than 6'6", but the guy who leads the league in scoring and assists is 5'9", the word for him is "exceptional".

Which is what this data shows about the US: poor countries tend to have high rates of 'religion is important to our lives' respondents (e.g., Indonesia, India, Brazil, etc.), while WEIRD countries (Western, Educated, Independent, Rich Democracies) tend to have lower ones (France, Britain, Japan).

The US is the WEIRDest of all nations, AND about 2/3s of Americans respond that religion is important to our lives -- more than twice the rate of France, and triple the rate of Denmark or Sweden.

Even those few rich countries that exceed America's rate of religiousity, like Saudi Arabia or Italy, prove how exceptional the US is -- because those nations either currently (the Saudis) or historically (Italy) had state religions.

So, DO tell us, Ex: why do you scoff at American exceptionalism? Ya got the data looking right at you.

BTW, since I was holding up the ATF as a model for caution when they had not concurred with the Tennessee sheriff on the Murfreesboro fire, they have now confirmed it was arson and have offered a $20k reward: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20100903/NEWS03/100903043/Feds+offer++20+000+reward+in+mosque+arson+case.

(There's a great observation in the comments -- somebody was evidently arguing that some vast conspiracy had set the fire to make mosque opponents look bad, and opined that 20 grand couldn't possibly bribe such hardened agents of evil. To which some one else observed it's far more likely it was knucklehead teenagers, who have been known to engage in loose talk -- and, after all, 20 grand buys a LOT of DVDs.)

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