I am giving 10 to 1 odds that there is NO shutdown.

The wealthy/corporate owners of the republican party will determine that it is NOT in their interests and will NOT allow a shutdown to happen. At least not over raising the debt ceiling!

Yes, thank you Congressman Johnson.
I voted for you to throw the US and world economy into the toilet, and I intend to hold you to it!

If my family and I are still alive, and have a house and food on our table in 2012, YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE MY VOTE, SIR! I voted for you to flush, so FLUSH, DAMNIT, FLUSH!!!

You know, maybe there's something to this God thing after all. How else do you explain all of the department store mannequins in Congress?

Someone - preferably President Obama, with backup from economists of all stripes - needs to address the nation and spell out exactly, and in great detail - what would happen should the debt ceiling not be raised. How it would affect each person in this country, giving specific examples, and us as a country and our standing in the world and how it will affect the rest of the world. And urge all to contact their US Senators.

Ordinary citizens have no idea. They have no idea that Republicans are trying to destroy the country in addition to the president.

By the way, did our promised financial assistance ever get to Haiti or is Inhofe still being an Inh-ass?

Everybody in the Republican party wants a job a Fox News. How do you get a job a Fox News? Glen Beck is crazy as a loon and he has a job at Fox News. Michelle Bachmann is a Fox News regular. The path is clear, the crazier you are the more likely you are to win a job or at least a lot of face time at Fox.

John Bohner has a tough job. Look for him to lean on Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats to bail him out. I hope the extract more than a pound of flesh.

I don't know if I can take AngryOldVet's odds.

Obama seems to be in the same position Carter was circa 1979: The Washington Establishment wants him gone. His very presence in the White House is an affront to them. Not on racial grounds (at least not mostly). What they hate about him is that he's not of their class or social standing. He may have the prep school/Ivy league pedigree, but he's not one of them. And they resent that with a deep and abiding passion. They felt the same way about Clinton, too. I can remember the almost palpable collective sigh of relief emanating from the Village when GWB got the keys to the White House. Sure, he was a dumbass, but he was from the right crowd, and that's very important to a lot of people inside the Beltway.

And if the GOP can find a way to create a catastrophe and blame it on Obama, they'll do it, whatever it is. Don't look for the media to be any help. They're part of the same bunch who want Obama gone.

I dissent from the view that they're not acting like adults. They totally are acting like adults. Adults adults with significant developmental disorders or other mental impairments.

Thanks again, Ralph, for giving us the Roberts' Court and Citizens United.

Nice little capitalist economy you'e got there. It'd be a pity if anything happened to it.

I would feel sorry for Boehner but this is what he wanted wasn't it?

Reps. like the newly elected Johnson don't have a clue how the wider world operates. Explaining the horrible consequences of default to him won't do any good because he won't believe it. The Republican party has become the modern day party of Know Nothings

By the way has anybody ever ask Bill Johnson exactly what he intends to cut? Earmarks? Well that won't even make a down payment. Defense? Off the Republican table. Welfare? Been there done that, not much left. The rest of the government? OK but how do we deal with disabled Veterans, foreign relations, the FBI and the courts? The Ag Departnment is big, but do you really think ConAgra and ADM are going to give up their corporate welfare without a fight? No, the only programs big enough to cut and have an impact on the deficit are current Social Security and Medicare payments. Good luck with telling Grandma that she no longer will have Social Security and health care.

Hey all you lurking reporters, when are you going to ask the tea partiers the obvious question. Now that they are elected, exactly what do they want to cut?

If this Tea Partying freshmen class in Washington does indeed cause a default by not allowing the debt ceiling to be raised, they will truly have accomplished something historic, not necessarily in a positive way!

Let's see, should the Pollyannas succeed in defaulting on our debt, and then shut down the government, it will be after a Republican president took us into a war of choice against a nation that didn't attack us nor as it turns out even had the capacity to attack us and the implementation of torture as an executive policy!

Talking about doing something we will no doubt pay dearly for later is what the Repubulican brand does best! -Kevo

I don't see a shutdown for the same reason as AngryOldVet, but with one quibble. The GOP may be the bought whore of the oligarchy but it's the political whore of elderly white "haves". Those are the people the party promised to keep happy (no Medicare cuts, no SS cuts until much later, no gay marriage, no mosques, and plenty of cheap corn syrup). The Ohio congressman sounds like he's from the demographic so he can be forgiven for his confusion. You don't piss of your primary voting bloc under any circumstances.

I think this will go badly, and we will have a government shutdown for a period of time. The key thing about forcing a government default is that it is still an open inability to make a choice. They're "acting" by refusing to act, by saying no. They don't understand the economic consequences but they do vividly understand the electoral consequences. They are effectively hoping that someone else will make hard choices.

@hannah- "Someone - preferably President Obama, with backup from economists of all stripes - needs to address the nation and spell out exactly, and in great detail - what would happen should the debt ceiling not be raised. How it would affect each person in this country, giving specific examples, and us as a country and our standing in the world and how it will affect the rest of the world. And urge all to contact their US Senators."

No way I'd advise President Obama to make this address. The best thing to do is stay away from the airwaves and let the GOP battle each other. Their crazies and their establishment are at odds on whether shutting down the government down. If Obama enters the fray, they will unite in anti-Obamaism. If the Dems stay calm and avoid panic, the GOP will split rather spectacularly. Let THEM form the circular firing squad between the tea partiers and the financiers.

They don't understand the economic consequences but they do vividly understand the electoral consequences

Sound about right, although I'd characterize it more along the lines of them understanding that they will be economic consequences of some vague sort, but that the political gain will be worth it.

I'm getting to the point that I'd be okay with a government shutdown as long as there are no exceptions, no loopholes for "essential functions" or "national security." Close the interstate highway system. Close the airports -- no security or air traffic control. Open the federal prisons -- no guards, no food, no electricity, so just let the prisoners out. No border security of any kind. No supplies of any kind to troops in Afghanistan, including no one coming home. No VA checks, or hospitals, or clinics. No Social Security checks mailed out. No courts. And, of course, NO CONGRESS! Yes, if that's what the American people want, let's give it to them, and find out just how long they really want it! Snark.

So why aren't the Dems tying the debt limit to the upcoming vote on tax cuts? Want to vote for tax cuts? Fine, you are also voting to raise the debt limit. ESPECIALLY if the Dems cave and put the highest bracket tax cuts up for vote.

Republicans don't want to vote for increasing the debt limit then they've got no business even talking about tax cuts. None at all.

Yes, the electorate will be fine with all this because *Fox News* will tell them to be fine with it - oh, and that it's all the fault of libr'ul Democrats.

In my opinion, by 2012, the Repubs will have embarrased themselves so much that they will be desperate for "Adults". I'm making my prediction here that they will nominate Jeb Bush for Prez and Cris Christy for VP. That will be their idea of "Adult".

Does anyone else remember how the republicans were trumpeting the wonderful Irish Corporate tax rates and saying that the US should follow the example?
Fast forward to this weekend - the Irish corporate tax rates are being blamed in part for the collapse of the Irish monetary system (even though they want to maintain these rates) I wonder what the repubs say about that!

If they shut down the government, don't give them a paycheck. I never got paid for doing nothing.

"extortion/hostage dynamic"? Now who would be silly enough to enable such behavior?

The Republicans can read the Democrats like a bad Sarah Palin memoir. I can barely stand to watch.

And as far as guys like Bill Johnson are concerned, the electorate will be fine with all of this.

Of course the electorate is fine with this. 'The electorate' has virtually no understanding of what's at stake. They've been told over and over again by everybody (Republicans AND Democrats) that 'The Deficit' is 'evil'. So anything that allows the 'The Deficit' to go up must therefore be 'evil' as well.

And now we have a group of freshmen congresspeople who've been indoctrinated in that mindset their entire lives. The lunatics are now quite literally running the asylum. The beast the Republicans (and lesser extent Democrats) have created is demanding its pound of flesh.

I guess I don't see why they need all the repubs. The Dems are going to put them over top as they won't allow the country to go into default. Thereby allowing the tea partiers to vote no.

To js...

"...I wonder what the repubs say about that!"

If you would view the Opinion Page of today's 'liberal' New York Times, you would have your answer.

Ross Douthat basically lays off the blame for Ireland's economic problems on the EU. He also references Ireland becoming a less Catholic dominated culture. His references toward economic policy (never a reference to Friedman economics) just point to their huge debt and obliquely relates it to the U.S.

Boehner himself is a child, does he even know what to look for?

I like the way they wanted Wall Street bailed out, with no strings attached of course, and screamed something needed to be done, until Obama got elected. Then it was Obama with a stupid dem idea giving away taxpayers dollars with no oversight. I wanted them to fail just to see those arrogant rich bastards jump from those high-rises, but I felt it wouldn't be in the interest of the US or the world if it failed. So now the repubs are screaming that we should have let GM go into bankruptcy, nevermind that thousands would be out of jobs.
The repubs want to cut all kinds of programs in government, which means layoffs, except their pay and benefits and handouts to their friends in big business. Has anyone asked the repubs, with all these people off the job market, no income and limited unemployment benefits, which means little, if any taxes paid, where is the money going to come from to pay repubs and pay their benefits and their rich friends?
Adults? It is YOUR sandbox with YOUR toys and you have to play by THEIR rules or they won't let you play.

re: Posted by: jugheadjack on November 22, 2010 at 1:47 PM

Did you ever have a job with full pay and benefits for working two days a week and all the gofers you needed to do your job for you?

Every Dem in the House should vote "Present" on the debt ceiling bill. The repubs wanted a House majority. They've got it. Let's see if they can govern. 260 seat Dem majority in 2012.

Perhaps we should start referring to these guys as the "Lord of the Flies" party.

Whilst wondering the halls of Congress searching for adults, Congressman Boehner paused to look into the mirror, asking him where all the adults went.

Suddenly, without warning, the mirror cracked.

True story!

When Boner askes for a vote on this, Nancy should have her entire caucus abstain (ence only education!) until enough Rs vote YEAH to approve the measure. Do not give them any cover. Either Boner can carry the issue or we default.
If the Dems allow half of the Rs to vote against it so they can use it as an issue in 2012 then Nancy is dumber than I think.

Thanks again, Ralph, for giving us the Roberts' Court and Citizens United.

Okay, now you're just being silly. Ralph Nader played no role in 2004 when Kerry ran a half-assed campaign (after the media ran Dean out) and lost to Shrub. Bush made no SC appointments in his first term, and if Kerry had not been a complete wet noodle backed up by a blow-dried VP candidate (who was a scandal waiting to happen), we'd now have a 6-3 liberal majority on the Court. That failure is not the fault of Nader.

Citizen Alan,

I'm really thinking President Gore would have won reelection against whatever goober the GOP ran against him in 2004.

martin stole my thunder a bit, but the thing I was going to say was the GOPers saw what happened when the Banking CEOs told the Feds that either they were going to keep their bonuses and other perquisites or they were going to let the economy go down the tubes. If business types can do it, the GOP can too.