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I’ve just watched Lindsay Graham on Fox saying over and over and over that Obama and every supporter of ACA has to be forced to admit they lied by saying the bill wasn’t a massive tax increase. He obviously thinks this is a killer argument that cannot be refuted.
No one on Fox, of course, is asking the obvious question of those hammering in the Tax! Tax! Tax! message: in invoking the “tax” power, wasn’t the Court referring strictly to the mandate? So if there’s a “tax increase,” doesn’t it only apply to people who refuse to buy health insurance? Isn’t it an optional tax? And aren’t most of the people risking it also offered tax cuts (credits) if they do buy insurance?
Eventually these questions will be asked, and I do wonder if Republicans are counting on ignorance and stupidity to an extraordinary degree in placing so much weight on this really dumb argument.
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Jeff on June 28, 2012 12:48 PM:
Aren't they ALWAYS counting on ignorance and stupidity to an extraordinary degree?
dp on June 28, 2012 12:48 PM:
To be fair, ignorance and stupidity have worked well for them for quite some time now.
T2 on June 28, 2012 12:53 PM:
"I do wonder if Republicans are counting on ignorance and stupidity "
well, sure they are. That's why the guy was on FOX to begin with. And that's why, in a month when a new poll comes out 62% of 'those polled' will call it a new tax. And Obama will spend the next four months trying to say it isn't and his clumsy "spokespersons" will be unable to straighten out the situation with a clear, simple rebuttal. And Romney will be yelling "Tax and Spend LIberal Socialist Obama" for the next four months.
Take away ignorance and stupidity and we'd never have had this conversation.
Gandalf on June 28, 2012 12:54 PM:
My god republicans sure love whiners and outright pussies. and Graham fits the mold for both.
bleh on June 28, 2012 12:56 PM:
And the fact is, they could be braying that this has turned the moon to green cheese and will force us all to speak French, and it would have the same effect.
The point is not to make a convincing argument. The point is to give the Base something to be angry about. It doesn't even have to pass the red-face test. It just has to contain enough trigger-words.
I expect that there will soon be lines of attack opened against "welfare recipients" and "immigrants" (and maybe "AIDS patients") who will benefit from the law. More to get angey about! It's a cornucopia of rage!
Let 'em rant. Congress will never overturn it -- the inscos won't let 'em overturn the mandate, and the beneficiaries won't let 'em overturn any of the rest of it. And meanwhile, 40 million people will get health care who couldn't get it before.
Mudge on June 28, 2012 12:57 PM:
Ignorance and stupidity have already been the benchmark for Republican ACA discussions. And who would forgo health insurance in order to pay a tax? People who are ignorant and stupid. And Libertarians.
Ron Byers on June 28, 2012 1:00 PM:
I sure hope that Democrats, especially beltway Democrats lead by the President, take this opportunity to explain the act in simple clear terms. The reality of the ACA has nothing to do with the false perception of the act created by the right. When people learn what's in the ACA they approve of the details.
As the President is fond of saying this is a "teachable moment." I suggest the President and ever other elected Democrat start teaching.
mbk114 on June 28, 2012 1:01 PM:
"By oft repeating an untruth, men come to believe it themselves." -- Thomas Jefferson.
Ron Byers on June 28, 2012 1:03 PM:
The only advantage Maddowblog has over this site is the ability to edit your post. Review has been broken since Ed joined our merry band.
N.Wells on June 28, 2012 1:06 PM:
I just heard Romney's disgusting comments on the Supreme Court decision.
The ironies here are unbelievably rich: all us Democrats cheering for a Republican idea that remains decidedly inferior to a single-payer / national health service model, while Romney, who could be basking in adulation from Dems and moderate Republicans (i.e. everybody but the teabaggers) as the person who figured out how to bring decent health care to all Americans, is reduced to sputtering lies and condemning his own creation.
stevio on June 28, 2012 1:08 PM:
Stupid is as stupid does...F. Gump
Gridlock on June 28, 2012 1:10 PM:
The Repugs will continue to try to undermine the law going forward. First target: the subsidies to buy private insurance for lower income families
Mimikatz on June 28, 2012 1:15 PM:
The media people doing the interviewing are not likely to understand the point about the tax applying only to people who chose to be free-riders and not get insurance despite the subsidies, so the rest of us have to try to put it out there. I think it should be sold much more using the right-wing language that gave rise to it in the first place--it is designed to eliminate the free-rider problem and induce people to take more responsibility for their health care. I don't particularly like those arguments as opposed to social justice arguments (it is the right thing to do morally) but it will help undermine the GOP position.
Perspecticus on June 28, 2012 1:18 PM:
"...and I do wonder if Republicans are counting on ignorance and stupidity to an extraordinary degree in placing so much weight on this really dumb argument."
And I wonder if there has been a policy argument conservatives have made in at least the last ten years that DIDN'T rely on an extraordinary amount of ignorance and stupidity?
N.Wells on June 28, 2012 1:26 PM:
Obama should really continue talking about what Obamacare will do, but start noting that the only thing the Supreme Court disagreed with was the Romney Mandate.
square1 on June 28, 2012 1:29 PM:
The winner in all this is the corporate wing of the GOP: the insurance industry still gets the government to force young and healthy Americans to purchase their services at wildly inflated prices. Roberts is not and never has been a teabagger. He is a corporate stooge who has -- yet again -- delivered for corporations.
Liberal Democrats are going to rue the day that they cheered what amounts to an end-run around the progressive income tax system. Make no mistake, with the ACA mandate, Democrats have given Republicans and Centrist Democrats an open invitation to replace government services funded by income taxes with private insurance plans mandated upon penalty of a flat tax penalty.
For example, rather than funding FEMA -- a government agency with some measure of accountability to the public, Republicans could replace FEMA with a privately administered disaster-relief fund...funded by mandatory disaster insurance.
And when liberals scratch their heads and ask why they are being forced to pay AIG an annual premium for disaster insurance, Republicans will point to ACA and Roberts' decision to argue that it is perfectly permissible.
Robert on June 28, 2012 1:40 PM:
The ignorance and stupidity in the GOP doesn't stop with ACA, but includes all things political, scientific, and common sense.
Dwight Meredith on June 28, 2012 1:45 PM:
The response to the lying charge is fairly easy:
Not a single Justice, not even Scalia, objected to the ACA on the ground that it contained death panels. Why do you think that is?
SecularAnimist on June 28, 2012 1:45 PM:
square1 wrote: "Roberts is not and never has been a teabagger. He is a corporate stooge who has -- yet again -- delivered for corporations."
Thank you.
Now the Republicans have what they have wanted for 30 years -- a requirement that each and every American subsidize and guarantee the profits of the for-profit insurance corporations, and single-payer is "off the table" for the foreseeable future.
And Democrats applaud this as Obama's greatest achievement.
Anonymous on June 28, 2012 1:50 PM:
Actually, I bet if you run the numbers it works out as a tax cut for most Americans. Between the subsidies to low-income purchasers and the fact that with insurance, you're neither paying out of pocket for a lot of medical costs you had to pick up before nor paying (through your taxes) for the costs of the uninsured who wind up at ERs, even after you've paid your premiums your effective tax rate has gone down.
That may even be true for upper-income taxpayers, given that the CBO scored the ACA as saving money overall. But even if it isn't, the probability is very high that it's a tax cut for the vast majority. I'd think it would be worth someone on Obama or Pelosi's staff's time to run the analysis, just to confirm the talking point.
It's not a massive tax increase, it's a massive tax cut. Obama cut your taxes. Romney and the Republicans want to raise them. Bitches.
Kman on June 28, 2012 1:52 PM:
Response: Other "liars" who have the view that the mandate is a tax include Justice Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas and Alito.
Kman on June 28, 2012 1:54 PM:
Sorry, mean "..is NOT a tax..."
Jim H on June 28, 2012 2:03 PM:
@square1: we already have (mandated) disaster insurance. It's called homeowner's insurance; and if the building is in a flood-prone area, NFIP has a policy for that too.
The mandate comes from the bank, not the government, but it's still a mandate.
Anonymous on June 28, 2012 2:05 PM:
i believe it raises taxes about 500 billions while 500 billion cut to medicare.
it saves 1 trillion off the federal debt. but more importantly, it will save billions and trillions in personal household debt.
ObamaCare seems revenue neutral because it takes in what it spends.
Democrats over-promise on its saving on federal budgets while Republicans straight lie about its cost.
We still need medical cost control. ObamaCare is about access to health care thorough universal health insurance coverage, not really overall health care reform, though it has some good provisions about the cost.
Single payer system, which is probably more efficient than this private-public partnership system, wouldn't necessarily solve the costs issues either as they haven't in other countries. it's more about people living longer while getting unhealthier. and that's hard to tackle and cannot be solved only by governments.
Vermont is going with single payer system for their state citizens. so we can see more clearly in the future.
Ken on June 28, 2012 2:15 PM:
@square1: the insurance industry still gets the government to force young and healthy Americans to purchase their services at wildly inflated prices.
Well, yes, they could do that, but it would be kind of stupid because of the provision that caps their profit. If they charge customers too much they end up having to mail back refunds of the extra, and stamps cost money.
Also, they will eventually be competing with the state pools (or the federal pool, for states that choose not to create a state pool), so if they charge too much people will buy insurance elsewhere. Competition is good, right?
N.Wells on June 28, 2012 2:19 PM:
To Secular Animist,
Yes, it saves the skin of the health insurance companies. However, it does that at the cost of turning them into public utilities: their profits are capped. This is no small thing. It is also a foot in the door that allows the argument in the future, "why are we paying 20% of net to a bunch of private companies to do something that the Medicare bureaucracy already does at cost?". I would have said this will take a couple of decades or so, but would be inevitable, like cutting out the middlemen in Student Loans. However, this day could come as soon as the benefits have started reaching enough people that repeal is off the table: the moment that politicians start screaming about the citizenry paying too much for social spending, moving ACA fully into the government becomes ridiculously low-hanging fruit. (In fact, it would be nice to have Democrats raise this in a couple of years as a logical way to save people some money.)
T2 on June 28, 2012 2:19 PM:
just watched a bit of GOPer hysteria on TV....pretty entertaining. The VA Gov. (R) had an amazingly well prepared speech with just about every lie, fabrication and exaggeration know to the TeaBag World about Obama. Sometimes I think it would be fun to be one of their "hatewriters". Biggest Tax Increase on the Middle Class in History - except of course that its not a tax, but a penalty that's enforced through the IRS. details, details.
Then an Obama "spokesman" came on all smiles to tell us how wonderful everything is.
Knives at a gunfight.
another anonynmous gal on June 28, 2012 2:24 PM:
Poor Cantor and Boehner looked like like they were already pounding down coolants when they got on teevee. Nervous looking, rending the air with myopic shreiks, whoops and huzzah.
Silly hullabaloo from the so-called leaders.
What happened to their interest in jobs/jobs/jobs?
The highest court in the land said the ACA is legitimate.
"The easiest way to get a reputation is to go outside the fold, shout around for a few years as a violent athiest of a dangerous radical, and then crawl back into the shelter."~~F. Scott Fitzgerald
Peter C on June 28, 2012 2:28 PM:
The next step is to get a public option included in the exchanges. Now that the framework is OBVIOUSLY and DEFINITIVELY CONSTITUTIONAL (bitches!), we regain the House, keep the Senate, eliminate the filibuster, and add the public option.
Little steps, press for them.
thanks for having me on June 28, 2012 2:31 PM:
The Affordable Health Care Act is a big achievement. Ask anyone with a pre-existing condition or costly health care needs requiring no limits, or kids with pre-existing conditions, or the elderly entering the costly donut hole of the Bush administration, where he wanted the elder to realize how important health coverage was by costing that elder almost $3000 out of pocket costs in that donut hole.
....Me, myself and I have to get life-long, life-saving weekly infusions that would run out given my relatively young age.
WR German on June 28, 2012 2:35 PM:
Senator Goober from SC analyzes his one-inch thoughts on TV.
That's why God gave us the mute button on our remotes.
Diane on June 28, 2012 2:54 PM:
Of course they are relying on ignorance and stupidity and not of the general population but of the media. When or where have you seen or heard the media discuss the actual contents and merits of this law (except progressive blogs and Rachel)? The majority of Americans do not know what is in this law ... why is that? What the Republicans have repeated for two years has been what most people used to draw any conclusion on the bill. I watched the announcement on MSNBC this morning and two of the first speakers were Republicans, Senator Jim Talent and I missed the name on the second guy but they both repeated the statement that this law would force everyone who currently has insurance to be dropped and find new insurance ... if the debate going forward continues to be filled with lies and misinformation ... Democrats will lose big in November. Have they forgotten how the Republicans whipped up the mania with Death Panels and rationing in 2010? Think they won't do it again?
Ron Byers on June 28, 2012 3:24 PM:
Dianne, Republicans will do it again and if Democrats do what they did in 2010 again, they will be successful again. The only chance we have is to respond forcefully with the truth to every lie. In 2010 the Democrats ran for the exits in fear and hoped that their constituents would be smart enough to see the truth. That approach was a big mistake. Obama in particular did a piss poor job of explaining the ACA. This is his and our chance to relitigate the issue. If we don't we lose. If we do, we have a good chance of winning.
Nick on June 28, 2012 3:57 PM:
Who's gonna ask? Today's media? TAXTAXTAXTAX is all we're gonna hear for months. NO ONE will deal in facts that it only affects non-insurance-buyers who get a break if they do buy. The GOP knows they can say and do anything and will get away with it.
PWL on June 28, 2012 4:01 PM:
Mr. Kilgore: Sir, I think your question answers itself. Relying on ignorance and stupidity has worked very well for them for a very long time.
mcc on June 28, 2012 4:02 PM:
I was saying from the beginning that the mandate was a tax increase and that's a good thing. So IDK
Cazart on June 28, 2012 4:44 PM:
@anonymous: "It's not a massive tax increase, it's a massive tax cut. Obama cut your taxes. Romney and the Republicans want to raise them. Bitches."
THIS.
FineinBK on June 28, 2012 4:47 PM:
Here is how to play it. DeMint says 'It's the biggest tax increase in history, it's a tax on the American People and it's unprecedented'. The calm Liberal says 'Interesting that you keep calling this a tax Senator. You know whats a tax? An uninsured man has a heart attack, is treated at the hospital for two weeks and walks out without paying his $100,000 bill. You know who gets 'taxed' to pay his bill? We do, the American People. That's the way the system has been and that's whats going to change. If you're not responsible enough to buy your own insurance then that tax is going to be on you, not me. Not the American People who are responsible to themselves and their fellow citizens.
grandpa john on June 28, 2012 4:53 PM:
Lindsey is doing and has been doing since the 2010 election what all rep politicians are doing drinking lots of tea and turning hard right to cover their asses. Lindsey already knows he will be primaried next time he runs for re election . he already has at least one announced opponent.
bcinaz on June 28, 2012 5:52 PM:
"Eventually these questions will be asked, and I do wonder if Republicans are counting on ignorance and stupidity to an extraordinary degree in placing so much weight on this really dumb argument."
What, after 2 years only 18% know enough about the law to have a real opinion? By election day, Obama will be lucky to raise that number to 20%. And I see Princess Wasilla popped her head up today to yell 'Death Panels"; ignorance and stupid is the really the driving force on the right.
Anonymous on June 28, 2012 5:53 PM:
As a small consolation, my die-hard Republican mother, who even defended W, cannot stand Senator Graham. Go ahead and rant, Lindsey! heehee