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Politics isn’t supposed to be quite this difficult. It’s not like the parties have never sat down to negotiate a debt-reduction plan before. It’s happened plenty of times, and while agreements have never been easy, they’ve at least been possible.
But the equation changes when one of the major political parties, especially when it controls one of the relevant institutions, abandons any sense of reason. Jonathan Bernstein had a piece on this today, but it’s a point that’s been circulating for a while.
One really, really important point to remember about House Republicans right now: There’s a very good chance that a whole bunch of them just have no idea what they’re doing. […]
[H]ow do you negotiate with people who just have no idea what they’re talking about? Here’s another example, from the NYT write-up of the party-line vote against [Cut, Cap, and Balance]: “[T]he outcome was a foregone conclusion and leaders of both parties said the Senate needed to dismiss the House plan to show Republicans that the proposal was dead.”
This is just depressing if true; it implies that an unspecified number of rank-and-file Republicans are, I don’t know how else to put it, either too detached from reality or too stupid or too incompetent to know that CCB was DOA without actually seeing the Senate results.
Right. In this case, Jonathan is referring to Republicans who don’t understand the basics of how a bill becomes a law. His piece on this highlighted a GOP House member, who’s likely to run for the Senate next year, who doesn’t seem to realize what it means when the Senate “tables” a bill.
But this keeps coming up because congressional Republicans don’t seem to understand, well, much of anything.
One Republican lawmaker appeared on national television this week, and was asked to defend his pro-default approach to governing. He replied, “I don’t trust the words of any source.”
Another GOP lawmaker said a few days ago that our national credit rating will get better if we fail to raise the debt ceiling. Another Republican House member argued that if the government raises revenue, it will make the debt worse, because taxes lead to “fewer revenue dollars.”
Common norms suggest we’re supposed to simply acknowledge that the parties have sincere, philosophical differences. But eventually, I’d love to see the political world come to terms with the fact that Republicans aren’t just being right-wing; they’re also being dumb. I know that’s impolite. I also know it’s justified.
As Time reported this week, “Democrats are clearly baffled by the challenge of persuading opponents who not only have a different set of priorities, but a different set of facts. ‘There’s a question about how much the facts matter to them,’ says a Democratic official. ‘And I don’t know what to do about that.’”
Jonathan asked how any is supposed to negotiate with people who have no idea what they’re talking about. I wish I had a good answer to that. I suspect the only solution is to ask Americans to stop electing radical, conspicuously unintelligent candidates to positions of power and influence. Indeed, as our current fiasco continues to unfold, Americans would ideally realize that their 2010 votes (or lack thereof) created this mess in the first place.
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T2 on July 22, 2011 3:04 PM:
what to say.....these TeaBag nuts were elected by people screaming that in the two years between 2008 and 2010, Obama had this country on a path to certain destruction.
Nevermind the preceeding 8 Bush years that created virtually each and every problem Obama has had to deal with since he became the nation's first black president. I just keep thinking the "black president" issue is bigger than we'd like to think.
karen on July 22, 2011 3:07 PM:
When you hold firmly to a belief no matter what the facts are, you are delusional. It doesn't matter whether you believe that aliens are sending messages through the fillings in your teeth, or that nothing bad will happen if we don't raise the debt ceiling. Yes, these people are stupid, but they are first and foremost delusional.
Texas Aggie on July 22, 2011 3:07 PM:
Jonathan asked how any is supposed to negotiate with people who have no idea what they’re talking about.
You can't negotiate with them. You have to go to diplomacy by other means.
Anonymous on July 22, 2011 3:09 PM:
That makes it more important than ever that Obama not continually capitulate. To give the Tea-diots a victory is only inviting more hostage taking.
SW on July 22, 2011 3:11 PM:
I'm rally getting tired of this bullshit. This isn't about the Republican party. This isn't about the system. It is about leadership. There are about sixty dumb-assed crazy fuckers who were elected in the last poll. Out of 430 odd members. This is not a majority. It is the tail wagging the dog. It is all about the orange man trying to rule the House as though the Republicans have a mandate when they don't. They have a truck load of dumb-asses that came in on a wave of angst over a crashed economy. Now it is time to get down to business to governing and means cutting these idiots loose and forming what amounts to coalition government between conservative Democrats and those Republicans who aren't insane. In the process, Boner can use this to marginalize that twerp Cantor while he is at it if he has any political skill what so ever. The tea party is toast. It is on life support, and being kept alive just by the defferrence that these idiots in the party and the press are still paying it. If they meaning the establishment politicians in the Republican Party had any sense at all they would use the opportunity to drive a stake through their heart. But make no mistake, this is a monumental failure of leadership on Bohner's part. It is up to him to find a formula to put a governing coalition together in the house. A conservative coalition, but a governing conservative coalition. He hasn't come close. He hasn't risen above the status of party hack.
Ladyhawke on July 22, 2011 3:18 PM:
Why don't we just start calling them the...
- Republican (Just Plain Nuts)Party -
Anonymous on July 22, 2011 3:18 PM:
"Another GOP lawmaker said a few days ago that our national credit rating will get better if we fail to raise the debt ceiling."
Uhh.... We have the best credit rating. There is no better rating. There is one way to go-down. Idiot. Americans are idiots too. Especially the ones in Florida. I have no sympathy for these idiots. They all deserve it.
Anonymous on July 22, 2011 3:23 PM:
But the rest of us don't.
Mitch on July 22, 2011 3:23 PM:
"I know that’s impolite."
To hell with politeness.
Do they care about being polite when they call us traitors or socialists? Do they care about being polite when they say that we're trying to destroy the country?
Imagine what they will say about us if we DO default, and the economy takes a nosedive. Imagine how many people will buy into their argument simply because we Dems tend to refuse to blame the Repugs for their vile actions. We treat them like "friends across the aisle" and "honored colleagues" . . . they treat us like the hybrid offspring of Stalin and Satan.
A part of the reason they gain so much support from the masses is because they use viceral, emotionally charged rhetoric.
I'm all for being mature, balanced and polite in civil coversation. But we are NOT having a civil conversation with them right now. We are fighting for the future of this nation against ideological extremists who do not care at all about how their actions hurt this nation.
Yet they call us un-patriotic every damned chance that they get.
Sometimes you simply have to call a duck a duck. No amount of polite diplo-speak is going to help anything.
Live Free or Die on July 22, 2011 3:25 PM:
"I just keep thinking the "black president" issue is bigger than we'd like to think."
@t2:
You are 100% correct. I am black, and black professionals cannot act in the same way as white professionals. For example, if Obama acted like Bush did, he would be turned into the angry black man and be ineffective. Moreover, black professional know that if they fuck up, no other black will be hired in the future, whereas whites can fuck up and a company will hire another white. If Obama was a horrible President (Bush Jr.), then there would never ever be another black elected to office. That being said, Obama why are you passing shit that Bush could not pass with a Republican Congress. He should tell the GOP to blow him, and say under the provisions in the 14th amendment, I will order Geitner to pay all the bills.
Mitch Guthman on July 22, 2011 3:27 PM:
Didn't the Republican leadership offer Obama a clean debt bill if he would take the political heat? And didn't he reject it and continue to call for cuts in social security, Medicare and the social safety net? He isn't negotiating with crazy, he wants what the Republicans want he just wants to do it in a way that makes him look like the "third way" reasonable adult.
I say screw him. It's time for Democrats to draw some line, too. If he cuts the social safety net and tosses the poor and unemployed under the bus, I'm not going to support him in 2012. Sarah Palin notwithstanding. No support for Obama. No matter what.
apmat on July 22, 2011 3:29 PM:
And the real problem is that most of these freshman teabaggers are idependently wealthy (how that happened I don't know) and I'm sure will be willing to put some of their own dollars in their re-election campaigns. I think their wealth and arrogance is part (a small part) of their idiotic thinking and claiming they know the facts.
Reality Bites on July 22, 2011 3:29 PM:
...and there it is, The Race Card!
captain obvious on July 22, 2011 3:31 PM:
Talked to a neighbor today, he started talking about Social spending dragging the country into disaster. Told him he shouldn't talk politics with me unless he knew wtf he was talking about. "Half the current deficit is due to your boy Bush's policies, and Defense spending in the trillion-dollar range is obscene. Don't f'in talk to me until you get a f'in clue!"
When you're dealing with these bozos, there is no 'compromise', no 'discussion'. Idiots are friggin' idiots.
RP on July 22, 2011 3:31 PM:
An informed democracy is hard work. It's not for the lazy, spoiled, and (willfully, and proudly!)ignorant. When ignorance becomes the new smart, bad things can not help but happening.
We (collectively) get the government we deserve.
Sigh.
Anonymous on July 22, 2011 3:32 PM:
"But the rest of us don't."
Yes you do, idiot Floridians (not you personally). You knew he stole from the government, but you elected Skelator anyway. Dem registration is greater than Repub registration by 600K. Not voting=voting for the GOP nutball. All the Dems who sat on their asses, cannot now complain. There is alot of shit that Obama does that I do not like. But I never miss a vote. Especially after the Bush fiasco. Romney is tied with Obama in Michigan. Even after Obama saved their asses, while Romney wanted the auto industry go under. If they actually do vote him in they are even bigger idiots than Floridians.
Mitch Guthman on July 22, 2011 3:37 PM:
@ Live Free or Die:
I don't completely agree with you. Chicago and LA have had black mayors who were as tough as nails. And highly effective.
But let's say you're right. Personally, I thought Obama was the most conservative of all the Democratic candidates so he was always my last choice. But, had I been wavering between Obama and Clinton, your argument that a black president would be an ineffectual conciliator might have been a good, prudent reason not to vote for him.
Where were the black people with all this useful information about what to expect from the first black president when it might have saved us from the first Democratic president ever to put Medicare and Social Security on the table in a deal? Why tell us about this now?
JC on July 22, 2011 3:38 PM:
But this keeps coming up because congressional Republicans don't seem to understand, well, much of anything.
Well, then, let's show 'em.
Stop negotiating.
From August 3 forward, pay our debt obligations, and stop paying social security and military salaries.
Let them see the effects first hand.
jackinmpls on July 22, 2011 3:38 PM:
A parable for our time, from a comic strip in the Minneapolis StarTribune a couple of weeks ago:
Husband: I declared a truce with the dandelions in our yard today.
Wife: Really? And what were the terms of the truce?
Husband: I agreed to let the dandelions grow uninhibited wherever they want. And they agreed that that was a good idea.
Wife: Thats a bit one-sided, isnt it?
Husband: Hey, YOU try negotiating with dandelions!
For trolls who don’t understand, substitute republicans for dandelions.
captain obvious on July 22, 2011 3:38 PM:
Reality Bites on July 22, 2011 3:29 PM:
...and there it is, The Race Card!
And if you think race isn't part of the animosity, you're an idiot.
Daniel A on July 22, 2011 3:41 PM:
I have a question. After we fail to pay our debts due to the house refusing to raise the debt limit, and thus failing to fulfill their constitutional duty according to the 14th amendment never to fail to pay a debt incurred legally by the US, can we please impeach the whole lot of em?
Danp on July 22, 2011 3:43 PM:
Jonathan asked how any is supposed to negotiate with people who have no idea what they’re talking about.
Jonathan works for the Washington Post. He ought to know that these Congressmen know how the system works and that by merely spewing nonsense through his own company and others, they get away with this nonsense. Yesterday Jonathan wrote a long piece defending the Post for reporting a false rumor given them by an anonymous source. His argument was that this is how Washington works. Unfortunately, the bigger problem is that this is how journalism in Washington works.
Jonathan, if you can hear me, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Midland on July 22, 2011 3:43 PM:
Didn't the Republican leadership offer Obama a clean debt bill if he would take the political heat?
No, they didn't. A "clean" debt bill is what has been passed 80 or so times before and it would have flown through without so much as a stray headline in the papers.
And didn't he reject it and continue to call for cuts in social security, Medicare and the social safety net?
No, he didn't. Where are you reading this crap?
DAY on July 22, 2011 3:44 PM:
"the only solution is to ask Americans to stop electing radical, conspicuously unintelligent candidates"
Have you never watched "American Idol?"
Why spend a decade studying at Juliard, when you can go on the TeeVee and be "discovered".
Kane on July 22, 2011 3:48 PM:
We had better get used to this crowd because they are going to be around for a while. Some might only survive one term, but others are in very safe districts where their only potential challenge will come from those representing policies even further to the right.
How things are currently unfolding on the debt-reduction plan is a sign of what we are in for on every policy proposal from here on out. Anarchy is the new normal.
bigtuna on July 22, 2011 3:48 PM:
all well and good. But we do have a wee problem coming up, and there are about 100 crazy yahoos with whom no set of real facts, no basic understanding of how the world works, makes any inroads. I think it is at least 100. SO, the body that has to make it happen is down to 335, AT MOST.
It is not about dealing with terrorist hostage takers. It is about dealing with deranged, crazed terrorist hostage takers...
How does one do that? IS it a Bruce Willis movie sort of thing? Act even crazier??
Chris on July 22, 2011 3:51 PM:
"...as our current fiasco continues to unfold, Americans would ideally realize that their 2010 votes (or lack thereof) created this mess in the first place."
It would be a lot easier for Americans to realize that if our President didn't conflate the debt-ceiling with a so-called Grand Bargain. I know he didn't start it, but he sure took advantage of the "opportunity". Now the media and others will blame "both sides".
If Obama had pounded the desk for weeks and months to insist on a clean bill without conditions, there would be no confusion, and I suspect, ultimately a clean bill without conditions.
zeitgeist on July 22, 2011 3:51 PM:
It’s tough to negotiate with crazy
Then don't.
Take a non-crazy position. And don't negotiate.
Why? Negotiating only moves you toward crazy. How can that possibly make sense? If crazy wants to blow up the country, you probably can't change that. Stick with non-crazy, be firm, and hope for the best.
There is a good reason that three old sayings directly on point here have been around a long time: they'd be good advice for Obama.
First, generally attributed to Mark Twain, "never argue with a fool - onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Second, "never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience."
Third, "never argue with a pig, it only frustrates you and irritates the pig."
Live Free or Die on July 22, 2011 3:52 PM:
The demographics in those cities are completely different. LA has about 24% Hispanics, and many liberal whites, in a deep blue State.
I did not say that ANY black president would be ineffectually, just that black professionals do not get the same type of passes as the majority. Hillary too, but less so for women.
Black people are one of the least educated people in America, why would you expect us to educate you? It should be the other way around. I never thought in a million years that Obama would let the GOP fuck with those programs. He seems to have no negotiating skills. But i am still going to vote for him. Unless we want Bachman.
Peter C on July 22, 2011 3:52 PM:
@dan A,
Actually, no, impeachment is only for the President and Judges, sadly. WE MUST VOTE THEM OUT, though.
Live Free or Die on July 22, 2011 3:59 PM:
"...and there it is, The Race Card!"
I never through out the race card, even when people are being racist. But racism still exist. Have you been arrested for a broken taillight? Have you had your car searched (one in Mississippi for driving to slow and once in Louisiana for going over speed limit on highway by 2mph)on on trip for drugs and weapons? Has a police officer every try to plant drugs in your car and arrest you? Have you ever been ask before your meal comes out, could you afford the food? Have you been called a nigger in 2010? I have and I am like Erkel. And I am married to a white woman. So no I don't through out the race card. The End.
jjm on July 22, 2011 4:00 PM:
Pelosi's plan is the right way forward: cuts but NONE to entitlements (so-called) and no new revenues BUT the cuts will have to be made in a way that does not at all please the hypocritical Tea Party gang that wants to keep all its oil subsidies and home district projects but take away every last cent the less well off still manage to have.
The Tea Party doesn't just not know what it is doing, it is following the orders of a few insane emperors like the Kochs and Norquist who wouldn't know how to run an actual society if they tried. All they know is counting up abstract numbers and making sure theirs are always in the plus column. They are basically stupid, selfish and completely shortsighted.
The fact that the GOP/Tea Party is a monster of the Koch/Norquist making should have made everyone realize how utterly devoid of intelligence these emperors are.
Anonymous on July 22, 2011 4:02 PM:
karen on July 22, 2011 3:07 PM:
When you hold firmly to a belief no matter what the facts are, you are delusional.
These are the people that also believe the earth was made in 7 days ....if you believe that fairy tale i have a whole book
Live Free or Die on July 22, 2011 4:07 PM:
Democrats: 2+2=4
Republicans: 2+2=100,000,000
Media: Both sides exaggerate. So the truth is somewhere in between. Probably 49,000,002
TK on July 22, 2011 4:19 PM:
We are so fucked.
MJ on July 22, 2011 4:22 PM:
@Live Free or Die @3:52 PM:
Are you kidding with this statement?
"Black people are one of the least educated people in America, why would you expect us to educate you? It should be the other way around."
Pro-tip: the proper response to any supposed liberal demanding that black people justify why it was appropriate to vote for a black man, despite white people's racism, is to tell them to go GTFOH with that borderline racist/ PUMA mess.
Also, just so we're clear, telling people that black folks are "the least educated people in America" so we are the ones who need to be educated about politics is so full of fail that it is utterly unbelievable.
Kathryn on July 22, 2011 4:29 PM:
Apparently representatives from Moody's spoke to the Republicans yesterday and also apparently they're still clueless teatards. I go between furious and morose in mood and after reading this post, morose is winning out. This is hopeless, it's an emergency use of the 14th Amendment on nothing. Boehner looked like a lunatic this afternoon railing about passing Cut, Cap and Balance and how they had done their job for cripe's sake. Did anybody know that C,C and B allows changes to Social Security and Medicare with a simple majority vote but to get rid of loopholes for fat cats or any tax increase you would need a 2/3 majority vote. Why isn't this being screamed from the roof tops?
Christopher Boehme on July 22, 2011 4:34 PM:
It seems awfully important to a lot of people to believe that the Republicans are crazy. Well, if that's important to you, fine...whatever. But reality is that this process, which started out with the possibility of a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling reaching the President, has now devolved into a compromise that gives the Republicans exactly what they want (lots of cutting), while leaving revenue increases for future consideration. As a lefty, I admire the intelligence and sanity of the Dems. Other than that, the whole deal reminds me of the boxer who knocked out his opponent, and afterwards told reporters: "He was a smart fighter. All the time he was in there he was thinking. And all the time he was thinking I was hitting him."
Zach W. on July 22, 2011 4:36 PM:
So much to vent about over this situation, but not enough time in the day.
One, Democrats could have raised the debt ceiling during the lame duck session and saved a lot of grief. Maybe the Republicans would have filibustered it in the Senate, but maybe not... Ah who am I kidding; it would have died in the senate, so forget that idea.
Two, I heard some intellectually deficient representative spouting off about how he refuses to give Obama a blank check on spending. These know-nothings are conflating current debt obligations and previously appropriated spending with new spending, and therefore, the light thinking public thinks this fight is about future spending. Assholes.
Three, when the hell did this become a big deal? Oh yeah, when we elected a Democratic president who happens to be black. I can't think of any other explanation for such a sudden and severe reversal of philosophy.
Four, finally I would hope this episode would persuade anyone who lives their life with at least one hand (or hell, even a pinky finger) grasping reality to vote in every election. If turnout is high wackos loose. If turnout is high, most of the time Republicans loose. That is the immutable law of American elections. I don't expect everyone to follow, or much less care, about day-to-day political activity, but I am sick and tired of the apathetic dumbshits who never lift a finger for their country (yes, voting is serving your country). If you are that lazy or stupid, just get the hell out.
steve duncan on July 22, 2011 4:36 PM:
There is a lot of anger and angst in the comments here. Emotions will surely further fray and escalate once Michele Bachmann is President and Louie Gohmert is Attorney General.
square1 on July 22, 2011 4:42 PM:
The problem that Obama's defenders have is that, the more that they argue that the teabaggers are nuts, the stupider Obama looks for trying to negotiate with them. And zeitgeist's comment, above, captures this perfectly.
Fine. Let's say a significant percentage of Congressional Republicans are hopelessly clueless. Why choose this moment to cut a deal?
I happen to think that an anti-stimulative Grand Bargain, that places Medicare and Social Security on the chopping block is a dumb-ass idea. But let's say that I am wrong. Let's say that it is a brilliant idea.
Why didn't Democrats propose it last year before the elections? It would have taken the wind out of the sails of the teabaggers, possibly kept the House in Democratic hands, and kept many of these nut jobs out of D.C.
Or, once the election was over and the Democrats took a shellacking, why didn't Obama try to pass deficit-reduction package with the much more reasonable Senate Republicans?
Or, having missed those opportunities, why isn't Obama doing everything that he can to defeat the teabaggers and then cut a deficit-reduction deal in 2013 with a less insane Congress.
Part of negotiation is understanding timing. At different moments, you will have more or less favorable negotiating positions. Barack Obama has inexplicably chosen to engage in a debate over the long-term fiscal changes to the nation's economy at a moment when Congress is as unhinged as it has been in over 100 years. Why now?
Contrary to the accusations of many, I do not hate Obama and I do not take pleasure in accusing him of harboring conservative views. However, the only RATIONAL explanation for Obama choosing this moment, and these negotiating partners, to try to hammer out a deficit-reduction deal is that he is using the GOP to "force" him to pass policies that he otherwise cannot justify.
While that may be an unpleasant conclusion, I can assure you that it is more pleasant than the conclusion that the President is a rank jackass.
T2 on July 22, 2011 4:46 PM:
Yes, Steve Duncan, tempers are high. I'm glad to see it. It sure beats the "oh well, it's just politcs as usual" meme we get from the Media.
Live Free or Die on July 22, 2011 4:46 PM:
I was being sarcastic. and I am a social libertarian.
MBunge on July 22, 2011 4:48 PM:
"Part of negotiation is understanding timing."
And what, precisely, have you ever negotiated?
Mike
Joe Friday on July 22, 2011 4:53 PM:
Midland,
Just to set the record straight, I DOCUMENTED in a previous thread that Obama does not want a clean debt-ceiling bill.
He claimed several months ago he did, but NOW he does not.
jeri on July 22, 2011 5:07 PM:
Everyone wants to believe the GOP is batshit crazy.
I think if you're going to play a game of chicken, the best strategy is to make your opponent think you are batshit crazy.
And if it turns out the GOP really are crazy, at least we would have (former) millionaires and billionaires to help pick up the pieces in the aftermath. The wealthy sure won't be hanging around to help people hurt by Obama's dealmaking if we go that way.
meander on July 22, 2011 5:07 PM:
And Bernstein managed to make a Buffy reference (somewhat awkwardly, to be sure) that makes a lot of sense:
At least the pure evil enemies were somewhat predictable and rational (in their own, evil ways).
Chris on July 22, 2011 5:31 PM:
Joe Friday: "Obama does not want a clean debt-ceiling bill."
If this statement is true, then it's true to President Obama's disgrace.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that Joe Friday is right (with a name like Joe Friday, he'd better be).
Anonymous on July 22, 2011 5:35 PM:
Hey Joe,
A clean debt ceiling bill is CONGRESS raising the debt ceiling, not the President.
It's their stupid law. And they have already passed the spending bills that make a debt ceiling increase necessary. Why they think they get two bites at this, but then get to duck it is beyond me.
The President is required to faithfully execute the laws. The spending bills and entitlements are LAWS. He should TODAY tell Congress time is up, Timothy is stopping all the accounting games, and borrowing to pay our debts will recommence.
McConnell's childish attempt to push his responsibilities off on the President is not 'Clean'.
gone_west on July 22, 2011 6:00 PM:
I am supposed to be surprised that Congress has a dysfunctional element to it that doesn't know what it's talking about and it's ready to act on its false beliefs? Surely you don't mean that as a surprise? Surely you must be kidding, Mr Benen. After all, it's not clear they've known what they're doing for at least the last decade - wars on false premises, tax cuts for the wealthiest, underfunded stimulus programs, extraordinary intervention required to prevent collapse of the world financial system brought on by the deregulation crazies and a culture of corruption from lack of government oversight, condoning of torture, muddled notions about what is science and what is fantasy and so on.
So spare me the angst over the current crazies. They are the same stiffs we've had floating around for the last ten years. I can't expect them to come to their senses and do what's been done 89 other times when congress needs to lift the debt ceiling. It's a pity Obama has played along, but that's Obama. He has no soul, and apparently no understanding of economics as well as no negotiating skills. But he should give it up. If the republicans want to tank the credit rating of the US to make their point about no new taxes for spending cuts. So be it.
The repubican "win" breaks down like this. If they "win" by tanking the credit rating, just add another one to the list of egregious mistakes foisted on the country by failed representation in the 21st century. This time the consolation prize for the republican historians is George Bush doesn't take the rap. Let's just make sure the republican congress gets all the kudos for their scurrilous act. I'm rathe sure they will.
If they "win" by gutting the entitlement programs for a democratic stab at tax reform, they've achieved a major ideological goal and screwed countless, deserving Americans of today for the inchoate American of the future. For democrats who supported such a move, may we find the progressive brand of party purity test - ala the tea party's purity test for republicans - for them and the democratic party. May it start with Obama.
Michael on July 22, 2011 6:04 PM:
You guys just don't see it for what it is. It's not the Tea-Baggers, it's the Post-Modern Mafia that's taken control of the Republican rump. They're making an offer that no one understands, including themselves.
ken on July 22, 2011 6:12 PM:
I blame Obama entirely for this mess. He is the worst negotiator who has ever held the office of the presidency. He does not negotiate, he surrenders and then lectures his side on why they should just shut up and accept without complaint the lousy deal he is so proud of.
Can't we just give him a gold star and get him to resign? Go home to Chicago Obama, you are not grown up enough for Washington. Let Biden take over now before Obama does even more damage, like losing the Senate and the White House in 2012.
cld on July 22, 2011 6:45 PM:
Where's the national movement for recall elections in Republican Congressional districts?
If they can do it in Wisconsin, they can do it anywhere.
Joe Friday on July 22, 2011 7:23 PM:
"A clean debt ceiling bill is CONGRESS raising the debt ceiling, not the President."
I never claimed it was.
I merely pointed out that Obama does not want a clean bill from the Congress. That may change given events of recent hours, but he is on record not wanting a clean bill, after being on the record months ago that he did want a clean bill.
Doug on July 22, 2011 8:45 PM:
square1, you still don't get it, do you? Just because Mr. Obama is President doesn't mean the world revolves around him. Nor does it mean that he gets whatever he wants, whenever he wants it.
Congress, and in this case the House, MUST originate all spending bills, including authorizations to raise the debt ceiling. Therefore, if Republicans in the House refuse to raise the ceiling, it behooves the President to find out if there is any possible quid pro quo that would satisfy them as part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling. THAT'S what's been going on for over two months, ever since the House Republicans REJECTED a clean bill.
While you may not, as you say, "hate Obama", you obviously consider him to be the villian. It's quite clear that Mr. Obama didn't "choose" to negotiate" a "Grand Bargain", it's his attempt to discover what, if anything, the House Republicans would accept as part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling. He could, of course, "drawn a line in the sand" which would have accomplished little or, even worse, blown up in his face, and ours.
Right now it's the Republicans that are on the hook for not negotiating. The MSM - even right-wing pundits - are acknowledging the irresponsibility of the House Republicans just because of their "line drawn in the sand". You want that responsibility shared by the President? You want the Democrats to appear as intransigent and uncooperative as Republicans when they support the President and his "line in the sand"?
The President has "chosen" to negotiate now, because that is when the crisis is. Not 2010 or 2013, but NOW. Nor has any "debate" occurred. No bill has been introduced, or Committee meetings held. All negotiations have been behind closed doors, with NO official reports on what was discussed, who supports what, or what they may support or object to. Nothing factual, other than the usual generalities and expectations, has been written in OpEds about what the Republican proposals would do, nor what any plan of President Obama's would do. A lot of creative imagining has been done, and treated as fact, but NOTHING has been laid before Congress or the public.
Finally, the only RATIONAL explanation is that President Obama is trying to discover what price, if any, the House Republicans want in exchange for an increase in the debt ceiling. If a "debt reduction" plan can be included in that deal, fine. If not, also fine. The one thing the President has consistently said is that IF a major deal is necessary to get the debt ceiling raised, he would like to see some sort of "Grand Bargain" that is not a one-sided give-away to the Republicans.
It all depends on whether you think President Obama believes in what he says in his speeches or just say pretty things to get elected. Going by his record, I believe the former. Apparently you believe the latter.
That's a pity...
Bonnie on July 22, 2011 8:46 PM:
When you are negotiating with people who REFUSE to negotiate in good faith, you stop negotiating. Negotiating in bad faith is dihonest, dishonorable, and disgusting. The Republicans do not deserve to be given the time of day.
Bryan on July 22, 2011 11:54 PM:
Does it really have anything to do with the repubs being stupid (no doubt many lack understanding) or dems not negotiating well, or negotiating too much?
Seems like it always comes down to the repubs who really believe the shit from corporate funded think-tanks, and the dems who serve corporate interests anyway. That's our system. How else would either of these parties retain political power?
susan on July 23, 2011 12:40 AM:
With Republicans you have to use the briar rabbit approach. The wolf comes up and says rabbit I'm going to eat you. The rabbit, who lives in the briar patch says "Oh do eat me but never throw me in the briar patch please whatever you do don't throw me in the briar patch Of course the wolf throws the rabbit in the patch and the rabbit happily hops into his hole. We should say to the Republicans "do whatever you want but please don't raise taxes on the rich and please do don't help the middle class and poor" Guess what the Republicans would say hey I have a great idea lets tax the rich and help the middle class and poor. Lets get revenue to help create jobs because the big business located over seas. And we would say a job well done dear Republicans. Isn't that what Republicans do.? Everything the opposite that the Democrates want to do even when the ideas were more logical?
Michael on July 23, 2011 5:23 AM:
Listen people, of course they are stupid, but they are doing exactly what they have been told by thier masters.DITHER...DO NOTHING,...do not help the economy get better, just as it was getting better, was the time to make SURE, that the stimulus didn't further help the economy, then they just point to the failure, and it will be obama. It is obfuscation, Never changes, never will, doesn't have to, worked for them for decades.... now coming to fruition. ... Lets just hope it's not too late....W
Michael on July 23, 2011 5:46 AM:
Square, last year, you had idiots in the senate , filibustering everyting under the sun, so nothing could get done, so you blame obama. This year its the crazy teaparty, disallowing a debt increase.They are hoping to blame obama, because that is all that they have. With steaming piles of rank, jackasses, as you put it, these rank jackasses are what put us in danger of pure republican control.And can you guess who I am referring to ? Nothing could have passed at any time, you seem to think it would all be a cakewalk had he merely proposed it.They are and have been anti obama anything from the first day in office.The stimulous deals he got by them taught them to double down on the stupid
These aren't your garden variety psychopaths we are dealing with , they are puppets being manipulated on strings, following pledges, which ensures compliance.Tebano estryea
Hindsight does not help you with a bunch of craven lying policymakers who hold not a moral fiber within them.This has been the plan, dither , do nothing , do not allow nothing, and the president will take it in the ass.